To the Cycling Adult with a child on Goodrich Road at 22.45 on Sat 26th July

[Cedges]

I sincerely hope that you got home safely because you were doing everything in your power to try and kill you and your child. If you want to cycle on the road without any lights or reflective gear at night, you are already an irresponsible piece of ****. But to allow, ney, encourage and endorse your what, 9/10(?) year old child to also cycle on dark roads, at nearly 11pm without lights, is wilfully negligent.

You'll know if I'm talking to you because 1) I fail to believe that there are too many adults around stupid enough to do this and 2) I shouted at you to get your kid with no lights off the road (apologies to any local residents I disturbed). I'd have stopped and followed you but sadly I was going in the other direction at speed and my cycling prowess isn't such that I could have stopped, turned and caught you up.

If you, or anyone else, thinks I'm being harsh, I really don't give a monkeys - this is a child safety issue and I'd call anyone else that sees this carelessness to try to stop it (obviously if safe to try and do so without risking the child's safety further, etc.)

Hope you sleep tight x

[intexasatthe moment]

Do you know if the cyclist was female ? I saw a woman on a bike about this time cycling up Barry Rd v close to Goodrich . She had no lights and was on wrong side ( admittedly quiet and straight rd ) for some time .

Not that it matters really ,just curious .

[apbremer]

I see lots of ladies wobbling around Dulwich in traffic on their bikes with small children perched on the back, sometimes in flimsy little carts and even once on the handlebars!! Madness. Where are the hordes of Health and Safety fanatics when they are needed??

[LadyDeliah]

So it's the cyclists' fault for using a legal means of transport and being surrounded by lethal machines driven by people who often fail in their duty of care to other road users by maiming and killing them?

[Al&Em]

LadyDeliah - I think the issue is no lights in the dead of night, which means someone might not be able to see them to avoid the collision, with terrible consequences for the child, as well as for them..... It's not legal to cycle on the road at night with no lights, same as it isn't legal to drive with no lights...

[StraferJack]

If you could see the child well enough to guess its age to within a year, I'd say they were plenty visible to anyone. Why so angry cedges? Sounds close to victim blaming

"Everything in your power to kill.."

Strong stuff.

[SebsC]

Victim blaming?! The cyclist was on the road at nearly 11pm, with a child, with NO lights and no reflective gear. Had a car collided with the cyclist then I think the cyclist would have justifiably been at least partly responsible. Surely if I decided to walk on a road at night with nothing to illuminate me and got hit by a car I would be to blame? I have followed many previous posts on the EDF r.e cyclists/motorists but have never commented before as I can appreciate both sides of the argument, but I fail to see how the OP of this thread can be criticised for feeling angry at the irresponsible nature of this person. To put themselves at risk is bad enough, but to endanger the life of a child is even worse. The fact that the OP could guess at the child's age does not surely eliminate the need for lights and reflective gear. Yes, the OP used strong words, but were I to stand my child on a road at night with nothing to protect them with, I would understand someone accusing me of having a death wish for my child.

[StraferJack]

Who is standing a child on the road at night?

Nobody

Is walking on the side of the road in normal attire at night a bad thing as well now? Really ?

Wearing reflective gear at night might be advisable, but as a motorist you are responsible for anything you hit. Things don't appear out of nowhere, even without reflective wear. How fast are you driving that you can't see movement on the road?

Me? I would probably wear reflective lights. Probably. But somehow I don't think this guy was doing everything in his power to have himself and his daughter killed

I'll go out on a limb and say if asked he wouldn't even be neutral. He definitely wouldn't want that to happen

I drive at night. I observe. Nobody wearing normal clothes is going to get killed by me

[PokerTime]

'as a motorist you are responsible for anything you hit'

Not true. In pretty much every accident involving a cycle with no lights at night, the driver is absolved of any blame.

[StraferJack]

Maybe legally

But it ain't how I drive. You?

[Loz]

11pm with no lights and a child on the back? Is there nothing that a cyclist can do that would be classed as 'wrong' by some people?

I think I going to go into t-shirt production. Every cyclist should have one.

[StraferJack]

Tell us loz. What exactly is "wrong"

Endangering lives?

Who is going to take those lives? Drivers not laying attention

And you want to blame the potential dead guy?

Jesus

[StraferJack]

If a motorist was driving along a road with no lights on, he or she would still not deserve to be accused of being doing everything in their power to kill people

Again, as a driver I have eyes and would clock that car in front of me ( and wonder why they haven't got lights in)

Accusing them of doing everything in their power to kill people is wrong

And it's not a cyclist v driver thing really. ( other than the driver will always kill the cyclist and not the other way around, in any given collision bad enough)

Bad driving is the problem. Not luminosity

[StraferJack]

And by "problem" I mean the degree of culpability in causing death

Not wearing lights is culpable but not actually cause of death

Bad driving is culpable but is the cause of death

[Loz]

But surely it is the responsibility of ALL road users to do whatever they can to prevent death and injury (including their own). But claiming possible 'victim blaming' in this incident, you are completely absolving one party of any responsibility.

[StraferJack]

Do you mean when someone says "they were doing everything in there power" to be killed, I am saying that's an overreaction and is victim blaming?

Then yes

It doesn't sound from the op there was any danger. They were able to id the child's age ( or at least tried to. Why if they couldn't see?)

Nothing happened here. It's someone going ott with a new thread

[LadyDeliah]

StraferJack Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> And by "problem" I mean the degree of culpability

> in causing death

>

> Not wearing lights is culpable but not actually

> cause of death

> Bad driving is culpable but is the cause of death

Yep, there needs to be a change of mindset where motorists are forced to accept the responsibility for their actions when their lethal piece of metal kills/maims/injures others.

And my post above was actually in response to apbremer.

[Loz]

OK, "they were doing everything in there power to be killed" may be a little OTT (but, hey, this is a forum).

But cycling on the road at 11pm with no lights and a child on the back is stupid, dangerous and irresponsible. No?

[StraferJack]

As I said, I wouldn't normally do it

But if someone does, should they be injured or worse, I would be loathe to say it was their fault. But illumination and hi viz for all modes of transport is ultimately largely necessary because of bad driving

If the roads were dedicated to cyclists not wearing hi viz jackets, what's the worst that could happen

But driving a car is putting you in charge of a machine that can mow people over without even realising. So I think it's beholden on us when we are driving to bear the ultimate responsibility

I don't fundamentally have a problem with people cycling at night. Even kids. There is street lighting and your headlamps. How much help do drivers need not to kill someone ?

[buggie]

Would the issue not be that the child was riding their own bike (according to the OP) and so

didn't even have the "protective factor" of the adult being fully in charge of the bike.

I really don understand why bikes don't come with lights built in and have reflective bodywork/tape as this would avoid most problems with visibility, after all, you wouldn't be sold a car on the promise that you'd get your own headlights, it just seems v backwards - especially now there are dynamo lights which wouldn't have battery issues.

Having grown up out if London, I'm aware that it doesn't get "properly dark" & so if driving or on foot I do often see cyclists despite their best efforts, but, as a former A&E nurse, I don't see the sense in taking the risk - there's surely a message in this ad for cyclists as well as other road users (looking like the Blackpool illuminations obv not obligatory!)

http://youtu.be/eOpoBFaDnzs

[Romnarz]

Think the reaction is a bit over the top - I would not personally ride a bike at night without lights ( too scared to ride a bike at all , though I did so in the distant past )However this was not a dark night in middle of the country, roads are reasonably well lit and you did see them as you sped past! In the UK motorist do not respect other road user and drive far too fast in town. Try to maintain 30mph or more with bikes around is madness.

[numbers]

"I don't fundamentally have a problem with people cycling at night. Even kids. There is street lighting and your headlamps. How much help do drivers need not to kill someone ?"

...but SJ in this case there were NO headlamps. It is irresponsible of the parent/adult not practising safe cycling esp where a child is involved, they don't make the choices. Please don't tell me everyone who is anti-car has never made use of it or do we all cycle to the airport to catch those completely unnecessary flights these days? I find your comments on this thread to be doing nothing other than stoking the fire of the cyclist v's drivers 'debate'.

I agree with everything cedges said and although the comments may come across as over the top, you can tell how strongly they feel about it after witnessing it. All road users should be concerned about safety of course. Cedges is a cyclist quite rightly commenting on the bad practice of another cyclist. Is that not allowed? If you are an adult and want to cycle without lights, go ahead. You are contributing towards giving other cyclists a bad name which really does nothing to help further the 'cause' of road safety for all.

east dulwich!

[StraferJack]

Sorry numbers but none of that made sense

No headlights? Who is cedges worrying about? Drivers who don't have headlights on? Headlights will be involved with any car surely?

"

Please don't tell me everyone who is anti-car has never made use of it or do we all cycle to the airport to catch those completely unnecessary flights "

I've read this several times. Don't know what it means

[numbers]

okay excuse my bad grammar.

headlights - I meant on the bike, not car.

is everyone so anti-car they never make use of them? ever? it benefits all road users to have lights at night, every safety measure we can possibly take will help, won't it?

[StraferJack]

Which bit of me saying I drive at night lead you to think "anti car"??