Phone the Doctors at premium rate

[Narnia]

I am amazed that to make an appointment at a local ED surgery their relatively new number is premium rate. I reckon it works out at about 15p per minute. Of course there is the obligation to listen to a message and then choose an option and then hold on until someone answers as well. Is this standard practice? There must be many many older folk and less well off who probably don't realise what they are being charged. This doesn't seem right to me given it's a surgery. Does anyone have a view that might justify it?

[Marmora Man]

None whatsoever. The NHS budget has tripled to almost ?100bn - to then make money out of those calling for assistance is wrong.

[Marmora Man]

THis might be a helpful site for those that dislike premium rate calls to key organisations

Say No to 0870

[Dodo1]

Ask them about EMIS Access.If they use this system then you can book appoointments on line 24/7

[Huguenot]

The unspoken issue is that we don't look after our old folk very well, and they tend to look for doctors to deliver emotional support rather than clinical excellence.

The premium rate is there very much as a dissuader, on the grounds that you won't mind paying a quid for a call if you're genuinely ill...?

If you want to pay for an NHS to deliver friendship then you have to pay for it... (Increased tax MM?)

[cdonline]

You mind me asking which surgery? And was it an a 0870 number or one of these other new prefixes that seem to have popped up?

[Narnia]

It was Forest Hill Road surgery and 0844.

[dulwichmum]

Darling Huguenot,

It is impossible to deliver "clinical excellence" without listening to the patient. Everything that a clinician does, from assessment, diagnosis to treatment depends on their ability to listen. People are not machines. Sometimes - particularly vulnerable or elderly patients require a little time to "warm up", to establish a rapport, before they wade in and tell you about an embarassing condition or symptom. No clinician can claim to deliver "clinical excellence" without the ability to take a history and communication skills are a large part of medical training.

[Huguenot]

Totally agree DM, the question is whether we're prepared to pay for this, and for the people who treat doctors as a social service.

[Zak]

I'm also a patient at Forest Hill and strongly object to their using an 0844 number (which is cheaper than it's 0870 cousin - but still a rip off!)

There's actually some guidance from the NHS (somewhere) that advises GPs not to use 0844 numbers, but it's only guidance!

They claim that they installed it to provide a more efficient system for dealing with incoming calls, but this can be achieved equally well using ordnary 020 numbers - which for many people are free to call (unlike pretty much all 0844 numbers)

As to why it's been installed - I'm less of a conspiracy theorist. I'd put money on some hapless practice manager being persuaded by a high pressure phone sales person that this was the system for them! 0845 telephone rates are routinely described as "national call rate" which doesn't sound too alarming and of course there's never any mention of them never being free to the caller. So I think it's down to incompetance - which is no comfort to people whose telephone bills are inflated by having to ring their GP!

I suggest complaining to the local Primary Health Care Trust who work closely with GP practices and control a lot of money that might soon be coming their way! Money talks!

[Marmora Man]

If you want to pay for an NHS to deliver friendship then you have to pay for it... (Increased tax MM?)

I don't particularly want the NHS to deliver friendship - but it should deliver effective and efficient care. Having worked in the NHS I could come up with a number of ways to reduce costs / redirect costs to patient care without having to increase taxes.

GP surgeries such as the Forest Hill one are usually private businesses - albeit effectively funded by the NHS. The GPs themselves are not NHS employees - their income is generated by a function of number of patients the practice sees, number of treatments dished out, number of specific government targets they hit etc. The premium rate phone line income is probably going into "the business" and not the NHS.

[louisiana]

I'm also a patient there, and strongly object. If I call - which is rarely - it's from a mobile. Costly indeed, when you have to listen to all the rubbish they put on first, before you can get through to a human being who can actually make an appointment.

[Drxyster]

My wife and I are both patients at thr Forest Hill Road Group practice. Our telephone and broadband provider is Talk Talk; as such all 01 and 02 numbers are free. When studying my bill for July I noticed the two calls that were made to the practice were itemised, the cost ?1.22, appalling !!!

[pebbles]

Has anyone been able to track down Forest Hill Group Practice's 020 number? I've looked on saynoto0870.com but it's not listed there?

[PeckhamRose]

This is a copy of a post I posted on a similar thread but is relevant here:

I may start a new thread about this, but basically the Southwark PCT (Primary Care Trust) are asking for feedback about their plans (already probably done and dusted) to install four PolyClinics (though they've given them a new name) in Southwark; one in Dulwich, one in Elephant, and I can't remember where the other two are. Rotherhithe and Borough maybe.

Anyway, I argued against it because my GPs (Nunhead Surgery) are brilliant, run by caring humans who won't happily transfer to 084x phone numbers and who are independent. But you may have other opinions. I don't have time right now but I am sure if you go into the Southwark PCT website you can get a form sent to you to comment on. And maybe at the surgery itself you can ask for one.

NOTE there are TWO questionnaires (again I don't have time to search right now but if you feel really strongly enough about it and strongly enough to complain at the target and not just on here!) one about the polyclinics and one about the 084x numbers.

[PeckhamRose]

OK found it.

Complain HERE

[Pierre]

a) get over yourselves - it's hardly "appalling", chances are you wouldn't even think about spending that amount (?1.22?) if it was the difference between the organic and non-organic options at the supermarket.

b) as far as I know, although the calls are charged at higher than regular landline rates, the PCT is not permitted to make any profit from them - they can only charge enough to cover the costs involved. And it's not _that_ cheap setting up a phone line to take care of the innumerable "are you open?", "what time do you close?", "what are your opening hours?" and "can I have an appointment now?" calls, but from the practice's point of view, it is worthwhile.

: P

[PeckhamRose]

But what about poor / elderly / confused people? You're talking only from your own point of view.

Elderly people calling call centres when they just want to talk to a doctor?

At my practice Nunhead Surgery they are REALLY keen to remain personal and keep the human touch as well as their own phone number.

[Zak]

Regarding the use of 0844 numbers by Southwatk GPs (eg Forest Hill Road Practice).

* Yes they can be very expensive: 35p a minute from a mobile ( despite the claim by the providers that they are only cost around 4p a minute from a landline) &

* They're based on "revenue sharing and so the GPs actually make money out of people ringing up and being kept on hold!!

I raised the question of GPs within Southwark using 0844 numbers with the PCT and ended up submitting a formal complaint to them . They'd aleady had letters from The Dept of Health advising them to discourage GPs from using 0844 numbers, but seemed to have done nothing about it.

The problem is that where surgeries are using an 0844 number they've probably signed a contract with their provider and are tied in for a couple of years

But that's no reason to do nothing about it! I've now shamed the PCT into writing round to the all the practices using these numbers pointing out the real cost to patients and directing them to:

* put details of what the calls cost on their websites

* put up a notice in their surgeries

* put a message on their recorded message warning people about the cost of calls from a mobile

If you feel strongly about this and want Southwark PCT to know, then write to the PCT compaints Manager Daniel Marshall at [email protected] and let him know what you think.

Also, if your practice has an 0844 number and haven't taken any of the above actions - then tell him.

If he gets a few/lot of Emails, then it will be a good thing!

Finally, for anyone really into this, the DOH are running a national consultation exercise over the use of 0844 numbers and you can respond to that ( it's on their their website and closes on 31.3.09) and tell them that it's a rip off and should be banned. Hopefully the DOH will come to that conclusion at the end of the consultation, but don't under estimate the energy that 0844 providers will put into putting out plausible information about how reasonable it all is, forgetting of course to admit what calls from mobiles cost (which many of the poorest people now rely on) and playing down the fact that GPs are making mmoney out of patients who are simply trying to make an appointment!

[NHS.Patient]

I, and others who have been campaigning on this issue, believe that the DH consultation is to be taken seriously. Please respond if you feel strongly on this matter.

For a more public show of support there is an e-petition to the Prime Minister to be signed, at http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/Healthtelephone/.

The contract signed with the telephone company (Opal Telecom, part of the Carphone Warehouse Group) is an issue, but one that can be dealt with.

The PCT will indicate that the practice is not directly in breach of its NHS contract and so there is nothing that it can do. The Department of Health messed up on this in 2005 when it banned use of 0870 numbers by GPs, but said that 0844 was OK. It has since been trying to back away from this error. This is partially acknowledged in the consultation text.

There should be hard copies of the consultation document available at every GP surgery in England. More copies can be requested - contact details for the team are given in the document, which is available to download at http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Consultations/Liveconsultations/DH_091879.

Please check out the website given below for more info, or contact me if I can help.

[PeckhamRose]

There was indeed a separate form you could sign which was given to me at my Doctors at Nunhead Surgery - please go there or phone them on 020 7639 2715 to ask how to get a copy.Thank for adding the link to the online forms above.

Do please remember to also fill out the PCT form on the other link I started.

[Freddy1929]

I'm old enough to remember the early days of the NHS, and concessions the Government of the day made to doctors to ensure they joined the NHS. Mind you I did think at the time where were they going to get their Patients from if they didn't join the NHS!!, there are only so many people able, or prepared to pay for medical care, also from my experience the working class have much more interesting ailments!!!.

Reading this discussion about GP's and premium lines, makes my heart sink, the NHS was set up with many promises ''Cradle to Grave'' and ''Free at the Point of Delivery'' and all that, and some things have been eroded, with the introduction of prescription charges, dental charges etc.. but to hear about GP's making money out of their patient?s calls is obscene, but as one GP told me, not that many years ago that he was a business man first and GP second, I bet Nye Bevan is turning in his grave?????..

[Nero]

The BBC did a report on this. I think it was on the Today programme before Christmas. It might be worth a search if you are interested. The doctors said they did not make money from the service.

[Zak]

Yes there was an item on the Today programme ( 16th December I think).

They interviewed Dr Richard Vautrey ( Dep. Chair of the BMA's GP Committee)who said he thought that 0844 numbers were a jolly good idea. And therein lies the problem!!

* He's most likely only read the spin provided by the phone providers which says that that people only have to pay c4p a minute. It's very unlikely that he has any idea that people on mobiles are actually paying 35p a minute. I can't imagine from his elevated position that he has the time/interrest to find out the real facts .

* He claimed that 0844 numbers provide various "features" which will mean people spend less time on the phone ( eg relating to how calls can be routed to different extensions within the practice) )but the truth is that ordinary geographic numbers can also be set up to do this.

* He had less to say a about GPs earnning money from calls - but that's not surprising!

If you're offended by this phone scam, then do respond to the DoH consultation & email the Southwark complaints manager to also let him know ( see above for details)

[NHS.Patient]

Nero Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The BBC did a report on this. I think it was on

> the Today programme before Christmas. It might be

> worth a search if you are interested. The doctors

> said they did not make money from the service.

Dr Richard Vautrey does acknowledge that the premium rates paid by patients are used to subsidise the cost.

The website referred to below includes extensive catalogues of links to media coverage of the issue in general and the current consultation.

The Today piece is here - http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_7785000/7785011.stm.