Ken Livingstone - antisemitic?

[Earl Aelfheah]

What do people make of Ken's latest unwelcome ramblings?

I didn't hear the interview and haven't managed to actually find a transcript of what he said, so don't really want to rush to judgment. That said, from the snippets of conversation quoted on social media it all looks rather worrying.

[Earl Aelfheah]

This is about the fullest account of what he actually said that I have found https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/social-affairs/discrimination/news/74365/ken-livingstone-bbc-radio-london-israel-lobby-tries

[Jeremy]

I dunno... he has a point. Criticism of Israel should not be confused with anti-Semitism.

People say that the left has a problem with anti-Semitism - maybe it's just that the left don't feel as much need to cosy up with the US and Israel?

[Earl Aelfheah]

.

[Alan Medic]

Which bit is worrying you?

[????]

Large parts of the left is anti-semitic - and one of the reasons is an obvious 'elephant in the room' - but they were always anti-Israel as it's the west innit, and many who are anti -Isreal + anti-business + a bit inclined to CT nuttery are anti-semitic too - obviously been compounded by Israel's terrible policies and response to the Palestinian issue.

Livingstone also has some previous on this; Corbyn, whilst maybe OK on this himself; has surrounded himself forever by these idiots and being an ideologue is unable to really face up to or properly condemn this - this goes hand in hand with the extremist he is in reality. A joke he hinted he wouldn't meet with Obama but stands on platforms with those that are brazenly anti-semitic and pro-terrorism.

Ironically, McDonnell has been much clearer and firmer on this.

Livingstone has always struck me as a pretty horrible specimen of humanity to be honest - divisive, self-seeking, manipulative and egotistical...an all round scumbag.

[????]

Jeremy Wrote:

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> I dunno... he has a point. Criticism of Israel

> should not be confused with anti-Semitism.

>

> People say that the left has a problem with

> anti-Semitism - maybe it's just that the left

> don't feel as much need to cosy up with the US and

> Israel?

But happy to cozy up with Putin and Islamic anti-semites and terrorist sympathizers and worst. Yup. good for them and their 'principles'

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

The issue of anti-Semetism has been bothering me for a few days. It is not the same as anti-Jewish, anti-Israel. Semites include Arabs, most of whom are Muslims. Some journalists are very lazy/ignorant.

[DulwichFox]

Just been announced that Ken Livingstone has been suspended from the Labour Party.

DulwichFox

[Earl Aelfheah]

Apparently John Mann may be suspended too for his rant against Livingstone. Blimey.

[????]

Politically, I can't see that happening as that will cause even more divides in the Labour Party but given the Labour Party nowaydays, who knows?

[JohnL]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> This is about the fullest account of what he

> actually said that I have found

> https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/social-affair

> s/discrimination/news/74365/ken-livingstone-bbc-ra

> dio-london-israel-lobby-tries

People saying he was talking about this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement

[dbboy]

Is the Labour party beginning to implode?

[Earl Aelfheah]

Here's a good summary of events https://www.buzzfeed.com/alanwhite/how-the-internet-reacted-to-ken-livingstones-most-disastrous?utm_term=4ldqpgm&bftwuk#4ldqpgm

[Otta]

What Quids has said.

[Otta]

I think also that people need to be careful to distinguish between being anti Israeli policy, and anti Israel. The former is fair enough, some of the things they've done have been appalling. Some Jewish people would argue that the latter is by definition anti-Semitic.

[Otta]

By the way, I stumbled across this the other night, thought it was pretty interesting.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0791psw/never-again-fear-and-faith-in-paris

[Earl Aelfheah]

I actually think John Mann was pretty out of order, regardless of ones views on Livingstone. I think Ken has lost the plot personally, wading into a fire clutching a bucket of petrol to throw over it. Although it seems to be his MO nowadays. Why anyone would start talking about Hitler supporting Zionism in a discussion about antisemitism is beyond me. It's ridiculously clumsy and ill judged. That said, I am not sure this mean he's an antisemite or a racist. I'm not even sure I accept the idea that 'the left' have a particular problem with antisemitism. The left is extremely critical of Israel of course as are many others.

[Otta]

Again, being extremely critical of Israel's policies is one thing, but a lot of the left simply think Israel shouldn't exist. These people are feckin morons because Israel DOES exist, and whatever you think about how it came about, it's there now and we'll only ever move forward if we accept that and get on with finding solutions rather than harping on about past screw ups.

[steveo]

And as an inflammatory aside, even if Israel did up sticks and move to Kansas, does anyone seriously think that would give rise to peace in the Middle East?

More likely a bloody fight to the tribal death forever and ever

[taper]

Peckhamgatecrasher Wrote:

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> The issue of anti-Semetism has been bothering me

> for a few days. It is not the same as

> anti-Jewish, anti-Israel. Semites include Arabs,

> most of whom are Muslims. Some journalists are

> very lazy/ignorant.

No: anti-semitism means an antipathy towards Jews. This is well understood. Semantic pedantry about the meaning of the term "semitic" doesn't alter that.

If you don't think Livingstone referring to Hitler as a Zionist is anti-Semitic then you need your head examining.

[JohnL]

Just saw on Twitter (Jim Waterson)

"Ken Livingstone is in a toilet and the British news media are camped

outside the door asking if he agrees with Hitler"

[Earl Aelfheah]

Otta Wrote:

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> Again, being extremely critical of Israel's

> policies is one thing, but a lot of the left

> simply think Israel shouldn't exist. These people

> are feckin morons because Israel DOES exist, and

> whatever you think about how it came about, it's

> there now and we'll only ever move forward if we

> accept that and get on with finding solutions

> rather than harping on about past screw ups.

Is that true. I think a lot of people say Israel, when they mean Israel's policies (which acutally I may have done above), but that's just slightly sloppy language, I think people know what is meant. I haven't heard people on the mainstream left calling for the dissolution, or annihilation of Israel.

[Earl Aelfheah]

JohnL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Just saw on Twitter (Jim Waterson)

>

> "Ken Livingstone is in a toilet and the British

> news media are camped

> outside the door asking if he agrees with Hitler"

An episode from a Chris Morris show, surely.

[????]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Otta Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Again, being extremely critical of Israel's

> > policies is one thing, but a lot of the left

> > simply think Israel shouldn't exist. These

> people

> > are feckin morons because Israel DOES exist,

> and

> > whatever you think about how it came about,

> it's

> > there now and we'll only ever move forward if

> we

> > accept that and get on with finding solutions

> > rather than harping on about past screw ups.

>

> Is that true. I think a lot of people say Israel,

> when they mean Israel's policies (which acutally I

> may have done above), but that's just slightly

> sloppy language, I think people know what is

> meant. I haven't heard people on the mainstream

> left calling for the dissolution, or annihilation

> of Israel.

Well, a Labour MP on Facebook supported a page them being transported to Kansas.....which is how this particular spate arose. Plus the mainstream left isn't in charge of the Labour Party anymore...