Child abuse - Ireland's Catholic shame

[Mick Mac]

Today's Inquiry into child abuse by Catholic priests is another shameful day for Ireland and the Catholic Church.

It is partly because of the high position that the Church holds in Ireland and the fact that it was above the law, in that the local police would be reluctant to challenge the local church, but at the end of the day priests took up positions in the knowledge that they would be in the company of young children.

I'm embarrassed in that this happened in Ireland, but I see this as another reason for people to reconsider the blind faith they put in people who preach religion, and here there is cause to remember that there is no proof of any God or external influence and that these people who preach to us are human and have not got anything that we should automatically respect.

[dulwichmum]

*

[Narnia]

Well said Mum!

[silverfox]

Steady on let's not get carried away.

It is a disgrace, shameful, terrible breach of trust and more. But we are talking of rotten individuals abusing their position. Such individuals are drawn to organisations and occupations where they have access to children and they can hide -churches, teaching, nurseries, care homes, youth clubs, play schemes and so on. The Catholic Church in Ireland, America etc should have been ruthless in ridding itself of such vermin. Foolishly they tried to cover it up.

It is a big jump to accuse the Catholic Church itself of being rotten as if it systematically endorses such abuse and it's hardly fair to pick on people who polish candle sticks and sing in choirs.

[huncamunca]

.

[huncamunca]

silverfox Wrote:

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> Steady on let's not get carried away.

>

> It is a disgrace, shameful, terrible breach of

> trust and more. But we are talking of rotten

> individuals abusing their position. Such

> individuals are drawn to organisations and

> occupations where they have access to children and

> they can hide -churches, teaching, nurseries, care

> homes, youth clubs, play schemes and so on. The

> Catholic Church in Ireland, America etc should

> have been ruthless in ridding itself of such

> vermin. Foolishly they tried to cover it up.

>

> It is a big jump to accuse the Catholic Church

> itself of being rotten as if it systematically

> endorses such abuse and it's hardly fair to pick

> on people who polish candle sticks and sing in

> choirs.

.

[silverfox]

Interesting point about the insurance. Any responsible organisation would do this and it is a recognition of the dangers that such rotten apples present.

I'm sure there are a number of members of the forum who work in the insurance field and they will tell you better than I can that the actuaries would have assessed the risk before permitting the insurance. If child abuse, paedophilia was endemic they would not have allowed the insurance.

(For clarity, the insurance point was in response to Huncamunca's original post where he/she raised the point but has since edited the post)

[mockney piers]

It's ok huncamunca I know who you are, say your piece (that's me not an official position)

silverfox, yes people are often bad and bad people often manage to continue in bad institutions but the catholic church has a long history of moving people away from the focus of their trouble to other places where's they have continued their abuse, some for up to 40 years after raping their first child.

Some of this knowledge has gone to the top, it is a rotten rotten institution. It has been in the old past, it has been in the recent past, it's a horror.

Interestingly when the first bubbling up of scandals in this country came out, care homes/social services came out my spanish father said that something is wrong with the Anglo Saxon, spaniards would never abuse children.

Well, suffice to say there are as many stories coming out in spainas there ar in Ireland and unsurprisingly most of these were in the church. And again the individuals could indeed have been in any institutuion entrusting care of vulnerable children to adults. But once again the church covered up, moved on and allowed these people to continue thileir abuse in their full knowledge. Sick sick sick sick sick.

[silverfox]

Yes Mockney, all that is true. It is sick and I understand certain US dioceses (Boston?) have declared themselves bankrupt because of the number of claims against some of their priests. As I said, the church should have been ruthless in getting rid of these people and handing them over for justice.

But still, let's keep a sense of proportion here. The institution itself is not rotten to the core and does not endorse such behaviour. Unfortunately, it's been mis-handled and has tarnished the image of many good people who belong to that church and I think it's an over reaction to criticise innocent 'flower arrangers' for the wicked deeds of some rotten individuals.

[mockney piers]

It's an organisation that encompasses literally billions, well maybe one. No, the flower arrangers are fine. But for the institutional spine to do that, that's rotten to the core, the skin and much of the flesh may be healthy, the core is utterly corrupt, at the core it is still about power.

Wow our politicians go to war to make a the worst executive administration in US history happy and that good. Let's turn a blind eye to kid fiddler central.

You've a serious thing about respecting authority regardless of whether it merits respect haven't you ;)

[silverfox]

I can see this is going to be a toughy as it has fallen smack bang into the hands of those who dislike the church itself, distrust churches in general or don't agree with religions in general. But it is wrong to say it's rotten to the core.

It's a vast, bureaucratic organisation and some parts of it have tried to cover up these abuses under their jurisdiction, partly because it relects badly on their leadership. Of course the hierarchy would have known about the problem but that is a very different matter than saying it has a systemic problem with paedophilia/child abuse.

[mockney piers]

My wife lost friends to suicide because of the abuse they received at the hands of priests. This didn't even make the news and this was a quiet corner of south east ireland.

Multiply this a great deal.

This isn't about my agnostic agenda, this is about authority being answerable to its actions.

I cannot abide by impunity, I don't care whether it's a priest or a politician.

I may be wrong but weren't you lacking sympathy for a beheaded crucified paedophile in Saudi Arabia, but the church covering for paedophiles, let's not pick on the church; and 80-500,000 dead Iraqis isn't worth wondering why in an enquiry?

not sure what your priorities are but they don't feel right to me.

Did I mention the church declaring Franco's illegal coup a just crusade? Another high point that killed dozens of my family and resulted in my grandfather being imprisoned for being a newspaper man. Another act we can gloss over and say, yeah but father smith was a nice chap so it's all alright.

[mockney piers]

A bit new labour of you.

No the church doesn't have systemic childabuse. It's not a part of it's make up, but it has time and again covered it up. That is actually criminal and the agenda is on the part of they who will do anything to protect the reputation. The crime os not on those who expose it.

[silverfox]

Maybe it's getting late but I didn't understand the end of your last post. I'm sorry to read of your wife's friends and the cost to your family of Franco's regime.

All I'm saying is keep things in perspective. I'm not trying to excuse anything that's gone on here and the church should rightly answer for its failings. I'm just pointing out it's silly to extrapolate that the Church is rotten to the core because of the actions and decisions of a few.

(Re my priorities: simply to question. I tried to keep out of the Saudi paedophile debate because I found it too emotive although I did do one post in reply to Keef about the victim being a relevant matter. By all means pick on the Catholic church and any other authority or organisation but let's not be too simplistic; and my point about the Iraq enquiry is I don't think it has any value and will not achieve anything.)

[Y'man]

It amazes me that there is room for debate on this.

[Huguenot]

I think a plaintive argument about flower-arrangers is akin to arguing that camp guards were only following orders and they love their mums. To work for any organisation is both an endorsement and a reinforcement. In doing so you take responsibility for its perpetuation and growth.

I'm guessing, Silverfox, that to you the church is about social cohesion and charity, but I would argue that these elements happen in spite of the church, not because of it.

To identify the character of an organisation you need to consider its inspiration, mandate, actions, accountability and ambition.

The root of the church is the abdication of responsibility for all adherents in the face of supreme power invested in a totally unaccountable divine super-being. In the case of the Catholic church they have also created a hierarchy through which this power is divested, and by consequence elevate the priest to semi-divine status.

This is corrupt and intrinsically evil. It doesn't just allow personal tragedies to unfold - in creating an environment where this activity can flourish it positively encourages it, like a well-watered garden.

To argue that the Irish tragedy is the action of a few lone individuals sounds like NRA hogwash - "Guns don't klill people, people etc...". The actions of churches across millenia have been vicious and genocidal. In the face of this oppression the crimes of a few Irish paedophiles is a drop in the ocean.

The argument you've used before about a lot of people being in the organisation still doesn't make it right. Craven mobs aren't right just because they've got several protagonists.

[silverfox]

Right, let's just review some of the views so far:

The Catholic church is rotten

it is a rotten rotten institution ... and allowed these people to continue their abuse in their full knowledge. Sick sick sick sick sick.

the core is utterly corrupt

This is corrupt and intrinsically evil ...

Get a grip folks - you're in danger of getting carried away here. Bad elements inside the church were responsible for this and the church needs to reassess the structural weaknesses that allowed them to abuse their authority and positions of trust. It is silly to say that therefore the whole institution is rotten and corrupt, and its members and adherents tacit supporters of such abuse, any more than Harold Shipman type characters, the doctor who poisoned his girlfriend and nurses that smother babies and old people can lead to accusations that the medical profession is by its nature rotten and corrupt.

It was abuse by some who were in a position of trust and badly handled by their superiors.

[Mark]

silverfox Wrote:

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... and badly handled by their superiors.

And that's the point, I agree that it's too easy to bash the church because of a few wrong 'uns, but the doctors and nurses mentioned above were dealt with swiftly when found out by their superiors. They were struck off, they're in jail, they ain't doing it again because their superiors knew it was wrong and acted properly, unlike the Catholic church. The medical profession acted in the correct manner, had they not the workers in that profession would have caused an uproar, Catholics seem to have a lackadaisical attitude to superiors in the church abusing children. If someone in one of the social/professional groups I belong to did something exceptionally wrong I would expect action to be taken against them.

An organisation with such power and influence should lead by example, currently the example is that saying sorry for the the crimes committed is enough (confession?). You and I know that steps can be taken to ensure they does not happen again but for some reason the church are not taking proactive action, expressing sorrow after a report is published is a bit lame if you ask me.

What does the pope have to say about such a serious issue? Does he even know about it?

[edited once]

[Huguenot]

I think your argument is well put silverfox - to see abuses in Ireland and extrapolate from there that the institution is corrupt would be a step too far.

I wasn't actually saying that. I was saying the the entire institution, hierarchy and belief system of a church is intrinsically corrupt and evil, and that the activities of paedophiles in Ireland is one symptom of many.

You can't 'iron out structural weaknesses' in an organisation whose entire worldview is predicated on giving up self-determination in favour of following the dogma of a religious text conceived and edited in a time when such tyrannies were seen as a useful way of controlling the masses by thoroughly despicable people. This is what the autocratic leadership of the Catholic Church aspire to.

You could only iron out the weakness by dethroning the pope, discarding the bible and refusing to elevate priests above their neighbours.

[Horsebox]

mockney piers Wrote:

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> It's ok huncamunca I know who you are,...

>

Snorky?

Amirite?

[ratty]

My MIL was systematically beaten by Nuns at school leaving her deaf. This was common practice and if anyone tells me this was not church doctrine then I simply will not believe it. The catholic and all other churches have a lot to answer for imo. Rotten to the core? Maybe not but 99% of the way I would suggest.

[silverfox]

I did say this was going to be a toughie

[SeanMacGabhann]

Interesting that the OP and the following 2 posts were all Irish and supportive of his claims. I would also support them

I did know several good catholic priests and Christian Brothers when I was growing up - and interestingly, despite the difficulties involved, most of them left the church , with one of them telling me it was because he could no longer live with the Church's activities. i was waay too young to understand what he meant but I already knew enough wrong 'uns to know I would be keeping clear of this paticular institution

My point is, to blame it on a small number of corrupt nuns and priests is just plain wrong. It was systematically broken and corrupt. When did teh last of the Magdalene Laundries close again?

[ratty]

Perhaps it is too emotive when the abuse of children and family members is involved.

[????]

Furthermore - on Channel 4 last night they said that the report openly criticised the last 4 bishops of Dublin for ignoring and burying the issue...sounds systematic to me this isn't an occasional priest turning a blind eye. The current Pope is also refusing to allow external checks on priests etc - I dread to think what sort of abuse could be going on in the Catholic developing world where media and the courts, governemnt and agencies are possibly less able to keep an eye on this than others. I think the report also said that of 44 priests looked at 11 had been abusers - ok, it's a small sample but a quarter!! I'm not a great defender of the Church or religon per se but given that Catholic Theology has the clergy and the pope as specifically the medium by which to contact Jesus/god in a way that most protestant based christianity doesn't (the individual is allowed to contact god/jesus personally) then the potential for abuse is and I'm sure always has been horrific. Historicaly, it is difficiult to make a case that the catholic church has been for the benefit of man.