Stay Gordon Stay

[reggie]

With friends like Geoff Hoon who needs enemies.

In the light of the suggestion of a secret ballot on Gordon Brown's leadership by Patricia Hewitt and Geoff Hoon

Sly and Reggie suggest the track 'Stay Gordon Stay'.

New Suburban Pirate Blog post Gordon Brown Secret Ballot?

Listen to 'Stay Gordon Stay' by Sly and Reggie here is the track on last.fm

[EDOldie]

This from the BBc. Hmmmmm.

There were suggestions on Tuesday that a cabinet minister might be about to quit to put pressure on Mr Brown's leadership - which were dismissed by Business Secretary Lord Mandelson as "pure journalistic invention".

But later, after her name was suggested by one website, Tessa Jowell put out a statement saying: "This story is complete and utter rubbish and I have no intention of resigning."

[jimmy two times]

If you are working class vote Labour. The Tories will do nothing for you. Gordon Brown is a good man.

[reggie]

But I is middle class..to the core.

Middle Class Mayhem

[EDOldie]

Surely Tessa's swipe at Browns attack on Eton has nothing to do with the middle class labour voters in Dulwich who send their little ones private.

[Marmora Man]

jimmy two times Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> If you are working class vote Labour. The Tories

> will do nothing for you. Gordon Brown is a good

> man.

So tell me precisely what has Labour done for the working class this last 12 years?

Spent billions on the public sector services with little discernible effect. Encouraged waves of immigration to take over blue collar / unskilled jobs. Seen manufacturing decline by even more than in the 80's. Introduced stealth taxes, increased NI, introduced and then withdrawn the 10p tax band, sent Britain's armed forces to war leading to the deaths of over 300 young British men and women, predominantly from "old Labour" strongholds, as well as countless Iraqis and Afgahnis. Expanded the tertiary education system to encourage 50% of all young people into university - then seen it become an expensive, poor quality debt creation scheme for many with degrees of little benefit. Created the conditions that have exacerbated the world wide recession and led to a budget deficit that will take 10 years to resolve.

Politics should not be tribal - it should be rational and objective. I can see no rational reason to vote Gordon Brown and Labour back into office.

[david_carnell]

National Minimum Wage.....

Working Family Tax Credits....

Child Trust Fund....

Increased spending on education and health to record levels - and if you think that has had no effect then we need a WHOLE new thread for that argument....

....to name a few

C'mon MM, you're more intelligent than the simplistic argument you've put across. It's more complicated than either you or Jimmy make out.

[Huguenot]

I think that was probably the checklist from Conservative Central Office from MM there.

It's good to know the stategy in advance, but it's probably a wee bit wasted. From the outside looking in, my biggest disappointment is that Labour's reached a natural end, the Tories look incompetent, and the Lib Dems look silly.

How one of the world's oldest democracies managed to elevate such a parlous board for UK PLC is something the electorate need to look long and hard in the mirror about.

Mind you, having seen some of the rubbish on the Climate Change threads, maybe the biggest mistake was universal suffrage. Where now the philosopher kings?

[jimmy two times]

It is pretty simple really. The Tories represent the rich and always will do. I was voting age through most of Thatcher's government and they did their utmost to get rid of the working class by

1. Smashing the unions

2. Privatising National Industries

3. Encouraging the working class to believe they could be middle class by buying their own council homes.

4. Encouraging greed.

For all Labours faults, and there are many, they are still the best option that any working class person has. I for one will and always have kept the red flag flying in my corner. Gordon Brown is a good man.

[Michael Palaeologus]

You are never going to get budge those who have tribal loyalties. Their views are based on a late 19th Century view of society.

There is now little difference between Labour and Tory.

Gordon is a bit hopeless as PM, he has the leadership qualities of a hedge. We thought he was a good Chancellor but many of our current problems with our domestic banks were created when he was in number 11. In retrospect, he simply rode a wave of economic prosperity, he wasnt the cause.

A new leader would be a good thing, somebody like Milliband who has a bit of charisma.

Having no fixed political loyalties I am currently leaning toward the Lib Dems as the Tories policies are too close to Labour, they dont seem to have the balls to be radical. I simply couldnt bring myself to vote for our current MP, the MP for Stratford and any part of London that isnt East Dulwich.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Song for Gordon

[Marmora Man]

David C:

National Minimum Wage..... which hasn't kept up with inflation and has acted as a deterrent to, some, job creation. Where do unpaid "interns" stand with regard to the minimum wage - a current Labour recommendation.

Working Family Tax Credits.... which appears to have created a system where families with incomes up to ?50,000 are eligible for tax credits. Hardly the action of a party focussed on the low paid, working class.

Child Trust Fund.... that have no significant worth. ?250 now might be worth ?2,000 by the age of 18 and in 18 years time what do you think ?2,000 will buy?

Increased spending on education and health to record levels - you're confusing input with output. I don't dispute the spend but I would dispute the impact.

[womanofdulwich]

Milliband, charisma? only to Hilary Clinton surely?

[Marmora Man]

Jimmy 2X said:

The Tories represent the rich and always will d - I would suggest they represent a questioning of rapid change, a belief in the power of the individual, that the state cannot and should not dictate solutions for most areas of life.

I was voting age through most of Thatcher's government and they did their utmost to get rid of the working class by

1. Smashing the unions - an absolutely necessary action. Too many unions weren't helping their members but exercising political power and damaging Britain's competitiveness.

2. Privatising National Industries - thus releasing the state to concentrate better on what it should be doing. Most of the privatised industries are now tax revenue generators, rather than government cost centres.

3. Encouraging the working class to believe they could be middle class by buying their own council homes. So how is this "representing the rich"? Allowing people to own a valuable asset rather than rent it from the State.

4. Encouraging greed. - I don't recall this - except in Harry Enfield comedy programmes. Encouraging people to take responsibility for their own costs and life is a Conservative policy - but it's not about greed.

For all Labours faults, and there are many, they are still the best option that any working class person has.

I cannot understand this argument. Class rhetoric / warfare is illogical these days. What is meant by the "working class" - unskilled blue collar workers? Lower paid workers living in social housing? Surely everyone wants to improve their life and every parent hopes that their children will live a better life than they did.

Two generations ago my family was, I suppose, working class - one grandfather a printer, the other a fitter / turner.

My father started out life as a 15 year old post boy in a London shipping office during the Blitz, went to sea during WWII as a sailor where he learnt morse code and about radios. This enabled him to become, following study at night school, an electrical engineer working on radars and echo sounders on ships in the Pool of London.

I went to a local grammar school, passed A levels and joined the Navy as an officer cadet - becoming, by association, what you might call middle class, but to me that family trajectory is one that the Conservative party would applaud - Labour by contrast would apparently prefer that the working class remained working class. Why?

[reggie]

Dear MM

You say that Labour

"Spent billions on the public sector services with little discernible effect"

Would you prefer a tory government spending less on the public sector?

"Encouraged waves of immigration to take over blue collar / unskilled jobs"

Immigration although unpopular is not shown to negatively effect the economy and jobs market

"Seen manufacturing decline by even more than in the 80's"

Do you think the tories are champions of manufacturing?

"Introduced stealth taxes, increased NI, introduced and then withdrawn the 10p tax band"

If Labour are a high tax party how come they presided over a consumer boom at the same time

"sent Britain's armed forces to war leading to the deaths of over 300 young British men and women, predominantly from "old Labour" strongholds, as well as countless Iraqis and Afgahnis"

The tories are clear that they would have had the same policy in Irag and Afghanistan

"Expanded the tertiary education system to encourage 50% of all young people into university - then seen it become an expensive, poor quality debt creation scheme for many with degrees of little benefit"

How do your ideas on education square with your aspirational viewpoint for families?

"Created the conditions that have exacerbated the world wide recession and led to a budget deficit that will take 10 years to resolve."

Do you think the tories are the party to lead the charge against the excesses of the free market economy?

Middle Class Mayhem

[ratty]

tee hee

[Marmora Man]

Reggie,

WE could keep the tit for tat argument going forever but to answer one of your questions:

"Spent billions on the public sector services with little discernible effect"

Would you prefer a tory government spending less on the public sector?

Yes, Yes, Yes and in any case any incoming government of whatever political party will have to do just that.

[jimmy two times]

Only a died in the wool Tory could say smashing unions that represent workers was necessary. I doubt it was necessary for their members.

[Huguenot]

I don't think reggie was being tit for tat.

He pointed out quite reasonably that a lot of the failings you level at Labour would have been delivered to an even greater degree by the Tories. Your arguments are disingenuous.

The Tories would have been in Afghanisatan and Iraq, they would have reduced financial regulaton and steered the economy away from manufacturing.

Much of Labour's investment in health and education was to try and make good some of the horrific damage done by the Tories. My Dad had to sell the playing fields of his 1,600 pupil school to fix the leaking roofs on temporary classrooms housing 45 pupils per class. A generaton of kids with no idea about teamwork, hard work and social responsibility. That's the Tories.

Fine if that's what the population wants, as Quids pointed out if you don't want to pay the taxes that's your choice. But how about telling the truth about the consequences?