Advice on a train ticket offence

[fergie]

Hello,

I was hoping someone on this Forum could offer advice or help with a silly situation I've got myself into.

This morning (29th March) I arrived at East Dulwich train station with about 8 minutes to spare. I needed a Zone 1-2 travel card to cover the return journey to Canary Wharf but the automated machine was 'out of service' so I joined the line for the ticket counter. After some minutes I still wasn't about to get served and faced with missing my train decided to board.

At London Bridge there was another large queue at the 'excess fares' booth. Needing to get to work and faced with a potential penalty fine I made the foolish decision to follow someone through the barrier knowing that I would buy the travel card from the tube ticket hall, and so covering the first leg of the journey too.

On the other side of the barrier I was pulled aside by an undercover policeman who asked me if I had a ticket (I replied "no") and then handed me another badge wearing undercover polceman or someone from the train company (I'm not sure which). I explained the machine was out of order, that I would buy a ticket that covered the whole journey in the tube hall, and also offered to pay the original fare plus the penalty there and then. He declined, and although sympathetic took my details, asked me if I had 'intended not to pay for the fare' (I obviously said "no!"), then Cautioned me, and said it would be referred and "they would write to me". He did say that I "would probably get away with it" if I stated (and this was in the notes he took) that the queue would have required me to wait for more than 5 mins (which it would have)...

Well, I'm worried, a little scared, never been in trouble before, only ever been fined once in 10 yrs of travelling in London (similar circumstances but that time I went to pay the excess fare and was fined!). I now have to wait for the letter from the courts to arrive but if anyone can offer some advice, suggest a position to take to minimise the likely fine and possibility of a successful prosecution, that would be just wonderful.

Equally, if it comes to it and I need legal advice, again I would really appreciate a recommendation.

Thanks so much!

East Dulwich Resident

[SteveT]

They are good at pinching commuters and motorists, but not muggers thieves and burglars which we would like them to catch.

[R&A]

do you normally buy tickers on your credit/debit card?

if so, you could post through a copy of your bank statement showing that you normally buy tickets for this journey and that this was a one off

you could also suggest to confirm that the queues were silly-long by looking at CCTV images (too much hassle but would show that you were not lying and confident to prove it)

also possibly a character reference from someone at work or equivalent showing that you're not the sort to jump a barrier and that you have'nt been in trouble before

good luck

[Ramble66]

I have appealed to a fine before and got a refund. I had got on at ED to LB without a ticket as the queue was so long. I went to the ticket place at LB and still got fined as I'd traveled without a ticket!! even though I hadn't tried to go past the barriers! Anyway I wrote a letter and got a refund. I think you'll get a fine and a caution. Maybe write them a letter?

Don't fret and good luck.

[fergie]

Thanks to you all. I'm just so worried about what to do for the best when the letter arrives. I understand it will ask me to plead - guilty or not guilty. Not guilty and I may have to appear in court and face a higher fine if I lose; guilty and I worry about getting a criminal record and the implications that may have. I have evidence of regular Zone 1-2 purchases and a letter too may be the way but I'm so unsure.

Thanks again so much!

[R&A]

also, i'm not 100% sure on this but i don't think a 'TFL caution' is the same as a 'police caution'

it may be that a tfl caution would not come up as a criminal offence.. you may wanna look into this in case they do give a caution

also find out if it's something that goes away after a year or so?

i'm sure you'll be fine either way though

[Annasfield]

Ramble66 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I have appealed to a fine before and got a refund.

> I had got on at ED to LB without a ticket as the

> queue was so long. I went to the ticket place at

> LB and still got fined as I'd traveled without a

> ticket!! even though I hadn't tried to go past

> the barriers! Anyway I wrote a letter and got a

> refund. I think you'll get a fine and a caution.

> Maybe write them a letter?

>

> Don't fret and good luck.

I did this as I have annual season ticket on my oyster card. Went to the guys to pay and be honest and they told me they'd have to fine me. I told them to stop being so ridiculous and they did actually let me out.

Daft thing is, that little office is marked as "customers with fares to pay". When you get there its a fine.

[MissM]

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23731140-fare-dodgers.do

read this x

[R&A]

wow

great article

perhaps next time there's a huge queue, take a photo on your blackberry/phone and then that'll mean you could use it as evidence and NOT miss your train... the amount of trains i've missed because of long queues is depressing

[ruffers]

Devil's advocate maybe but..

I'm not sure but I think once you've sneaked through the barrier then things change a bit as you could be said to have actively avoided trying to pay a fare, indeed you didn't even try at the London Bridge end at least. This as opposed to not having had chance to do so, hence it's questionable how relevant the article is, and how relevant Ramble66's example is which specifically states they hadn't even tried to go past the barriers.

The OP on the other hand failed to buy a ticket twice then actively found a way past the barrier without paying, whatever the intentions were on the other side.

As for suggesting a position the officer has already done that for you I'd suggest. Be very very sorry, tell them what he told them to tell you, and cross your fingers.

[stevebailey]

I would suggest as soon as you get the letter you call them and plead your case over the phone and offer them an out of court payment.

Hopefully they will go for this and that will be the end of it.

Alternatively there are plenty of specialist solicitors out there who will be able to help you, it all depends on how much you wish to pay against the risk of a criminal record for 5 years?

I had a similar situation on a No.25 bus a few years ago, I was 60p short on my PAYG oyster and honestly just did not realise. I got the prosecution letter, I argued that I was not allowed to leave the bus by the inspector which is holding against will, that he had not read me my rights so nothing he said would be admissible in court, and that i had offered to pay the fare or the fine right there, and as the law states for Fare Evasion, they have to prove that you did not have the means to pay the fare at the time you were caught.

I received a letter back stating that there was no record of this incident and so to ignore the previous communication.

So, as I say it's up to you, it all depends on how you worried you are, how much money you have to spare and if you're willing to fight it on the basis you believe you are in the right and East Dulwich Stations ticket buying situation is an absolute joke at the best of times!

Good luck either way!

[H]

Not that this helps now as it is after the event, but why don't you get a PAYG Oyster Card? Then you wouldn't have to queue for a ticket and this whole situation would have been avoided... not much help now, but could prevent it happening again.

[The Minkey]

"Daft thing is, that little office is marked as "customers with fares to pay". When you get there its a fine."

I've been luckier, presenting myself at that booth and been allowed to pay. But it was a while ago - maybe 2 years. Things may have changed. I was using an Oyster pay as you go at the time while waiting for an annual pass renewal through work. No ticket barrier at Peckham at the time and I simply didn't remember it wasn't a valid ticket until I tried getting through the barriers at LB.

I've also made the mistake of travelling to Croydon twice on a Zone 1-2 annual pass, forgetting Croydon is further out. Both times I was allowed to pay the other end.

Good luck, Fergie. I don't envy you your situation. If there were any way to pay a fine while avoiding an actual prosecution, I'd go for it.

[cate]

Wondering why you didn't nip across the road to the newsagents where they sell travel cards. I wouldn't dream of faffing around trying to buy a ticket at the station.

[ianr]

>and that i had offered to pay the fare or the fine right there, and as the law states for Fare Evasion,

>they have to prove that you did not have the means to pay the fare at the time you were caught.

No, the offence is that someone "Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof".

[ruffers]

... and slipping through the barrier behind someone in this case it what's gonna cause the problem relating to the "with intent to avoid payment thereof".

[ianr]

I guess the person who interviewed you was a revenue protection inspector who will submit a report to his rail company. I doubt whether it's yet been decided whether to prosecute or to claim a penalty or standard fare.

In your position I think I would try phoning Southern's (I assume it's them) Prosecution or Revenue Protection Department, to get confirmation that they're dealing with the case, ask what options they're considering, and about their procedures and timescales, including whether they usually invite comments before any possible prosecution.

I'd consider it important to make some kind of representations before they make a decision. Maybe on the phone, if it seems apt, but also backed up in writing. Far better that than leave it solely to the chance of a hurried conversation with a representative on the morning, if it should come to it, of a court appearance. A clear explanation of the circumstances and what my intentions had been, and presenting any evidence that they were consistent with my actual behaviour, and that there was no actual intent to evade paying the fare.

One argument I'd make would be that to get to Canary Wharf and back from LBr, even without having got an ED->LBr ticket, and assuming you skip no more barriers :), would still be cheapest using a Z1/2 travelcard, so scacely worth the risk of a prosecution or even a penalty fare. The individual cash fares would I think be (not quite certain about the CW->ED, but I believe it's at least that):

Peak Off peak

LBr->CW 4.00 4.00

CW->ED 4.40 4.40

Total 8.40 8.40

Compare

Z1/2 Travelcard 7.20 5.60

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14416.aspx

All the better if you've kept the travel card as evidence. Can you also prove that all the components of your journey on that day were necessary and took place?

But do get a PAYG Oyster. Removes the risk, is capped at TC rates, and can be cheaper.

[Horsebox]

I'd be surprised if anyone from Southern is willing to discuss this with you over the phone or until a decision to prosecute or not is made. Why would they? They deal with hundreds of fare dodgers a week, will have heard all the excuses and sob stories before and wont view your case as any different to the rest, especially as, in their eyes, you were caught red-handed tring to slip through the barrier behind a fare paying passenger.

Good luck with whatever happens, though, and please keep us informed on the outcome.

[ClareC]

Real fare dodgers provide a fake name and address;-)

[giggirl]

Not paying a penalty fare is a civil matter whereas giving a false name and address is a criminal offence.

[stevebailey]

>and that i had offered to pay the fare or the fine right there, and as the law states for Fare Evasion,

>they have to prove that you did not have the means to pay the fare at the time you were caught.

No, the offence is that someone "Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof".

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

That's exactly my point, the intent not to pay the fare, i.e. not having the means to pay the fare has to be proved to be convicted of fare evasion.

OK in this case, slipping the ticket barrier is a bit of a glaringly large hole, I was just submitting what I pointed out to TFL when they picked me up on one of lifes little over-sites that have become such huge criminal offences nowadays.

[ianr]

>That's exactly my point, the intent not to pay the fare, i.e. not having the

>means to pay the fare has to be proved to be convicted of fare evasion.

I don't think it can be exactly your point, as I still don't agree with you.

[stevebailey]

I don't think it can be exactly your point, as I still don't agree with you.

Oh well, that's life I guess!

[SeanMacGabhann]

It's not clear from the OP why time was so tight - left the house due to unavoidable circs and a job with zero tolerance on lateness? or is the whole thing a result of impatience?

The excess fair counter turning out to be a fine-collection counter is really annoying it's true. But other than that, you know the score as a regular commuter - you just took it upon yourself to ignore all of the rules so to me it all sounds like an awful lot of drama and fuss considering this is entirely self-inflicted

Wether you are entitled to claim back or legally fight the thing is surely secondary to the fact that you were running late (I'm guessing not for the first time), felt the Q was too long for youto wait (not possible to ring work and point out you'll be 10 minutes late?) and then when you got to the far end you piggybacked another commuter

and I speak as someone who has been in the same boat - it just taught me a lesson and I haven't done it again. Fighting the whole process just smacks of self-importance where everyone was wrong but you.

[Sue]

ClareC Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Real fare dodgers provide a fake name and

> address;-)

xxxxxx

Which the person who catches them can easily check on the spot and find is false.

Happened to a friend of mine at Clapham Junction.