big fat gypsy weddings

[TheArtfulDogger]

what a delight it was to watch this show tonight

not sure why but it made my world seem 100 times better

do you like dags?

;-)

[siousxiesue]

Watched this in horror...

They ended with a trailer for next week's programme-something along the lines of being an endangered culture, from what we'd seen, with the violent courtship practices and very traditional set up of gender based roles, all I could think was 'bring it on'!

[pk]

siousxiesue Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Watched this in horror...

> They ended with a trailer for next week's

> programme-something along the lines of being an

> endangered culture, from what we'd seen, with the

> violent courtship practices and very traditional

> set up of gender based roles, all I could think

> was 'bring it on'!

any other cultures that you'd like to get rid of?

[siousxiesue]

No but I would like to eliminate misogyny!

[Michael Palaeologus]

Hmmm. I enjoyed it as an entertainment and was impressed at the non-judgemental character of the narrative. I think I understand some aspects of gypsy culture a bit better. I dont think we are in a position to judge.

I also enjoyed the Kara Tointon dyslexia programme that followed on BBC1. A well structured programme that told me alot about dyslexia and how it can be addressed but not cured.

I thought Kara T was brave in being so open about something which was obviously painful for her.

[Ridgley]

What is the difference between Gypsy?s and Travellers? I have not watched the, programme but heard about it if they are Gypsy?s or Travellers how can they afford this and do they pay taxes. There is place in Down Berry in Essex where thre is a big community of them and they in very expensive properties in that area.

[Annette Curtain]

siousxiesue Wrote:

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> No but I would like to eliminate misogyny!

I didn't see much women hating myself, in fact the men & boys positively liked the girls, maybe your mistaking misogyny with machismo ?

With that in mind did you read Tobias Jones in the Observer magazine this Sunday, he talks about living in a close to nature commune & how old fashioned gender roles are subtly reasserted. He goes on to say " What suprised me is that so many people ( men & women ) seem contented, rather than frustrated, to rediscover the differences"

Maybe it's got some thing to do with sitting around a campfire at night, I don't know but either way a strong sense of loyalty & community pervades, not a bad thing in my book

:)

Annette

[david_carnell]

I guess it all depends on your views on cultural relativism. Do we look at the traveller community and say, "...well, that's their culture and they should be free to practice it..." and thus tolerate misogyny, casual racism and a desire not to integrate into British society at large OR do we criticise such things and open ourselves to charges of prejudice and intolerance of others?

Personally, I am of the former opinion in all cases - and this would extend to other nations beliefs and practices too - and believe that a community who reside in Britain should be encouraged to adopt it's liberal attitudes toward women, ethnic minorities and cultural integration.

Obviously, travellers themselves have historically been persecuted which has not helped the situation today, but two wrongs do not a right make.

[pk]

Ridgley Wrote:

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> If they are Gypsy?s or Travellers

> how can they afford this and do they pay taxes.

>

i think that by and large they work to earn money, as most of us do

as with any other group, i am sure some pay all their taxes and some don't

[katie1997]

TheArtfulDogger Wrote:

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> do you like dags?

Dare I ask, what are dags? And no, google is not my friend here.

[siousxiesue]

Annette, part of the 'courtship' ritual is grabbing a girl, sometimes hard/violently, and demanding a kiss or essentially choosing her as a mate-she gets no say. The women/girls are highly restricted in terms of independent movement/work etc. They 'liked' them as a dog likes a bone, something to possess and devour, very disturbing. I call that misogyny

[pk]

david_carnell Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I guess it all depends on your views on cultural

> relativism. Do we look at the traveller community

> and say, "...well, that's their culture and they

> should be free to practice it..." and thus

> tolerate misogyny, casual racism and a desire not

> to integrate into British society at large OR do

> we criticise such things and open ourselves to

> charges of prejudice and intolerance of others?

>

but before all this we have to accurately establish what 'their' culture is, if indeed there is a uniform culture - and i suggest that this shouldn't be done by watching a single documentary (or even several) showing a very small number of 'them', who may or may not be representative of the coummunity as a whole (to the extent that there is a unified community)

also, what's representative of 'British society at large'?

[david_carnell]

Well, both of those issues require more time and effort to research and examine than I have or wish to have.

Identity and culture are highly controversial.

And of course you are correct in highlighting differences within the communities. I would imagine the immediate distinction between Romany gypsies and Irish travellers would show many differences.

[Fabricio the Guido]

It is probably better to treat the show as entertainng rather than to try and draw sociological conclusions/ insights from this programme. I find it interesting though that people do try and seek 'the grain of truth' some representation of reality from this sort of programme. Beyond its specific participants I am not sure what else it can say. I liked the show because some of the outfits were simply breath taking - and, not in a good way.

@ PK & DC, it is possible to make rational objective statements and pass moral judgments as one long as you recognize that you are acting withing a particular narrative framework and you do not confuse that with some objective reality out there. Within that particular framework which has common foundational ideas about right and wrong and acceptable behavious it is possible to make judgements. when you look at a situtation as an outside you are aware of your position and how it influences your asssessment.

[david_carnell]

I would say the following are an inconclusive list of central tenets to being British:

Belief in equality indistinct from race, gender, ethnicity, sexuality, age

Belief in the rule of law

Belief in democracy

But frankly it's a nigh on impossible task to tie down something much more tangible. We don't have a constitution like our cousins across the pond; we do not pledge allegiance to a flag and our colonial history and reputation as a haven for those in need has meant we have a mix of cultures probably greater than any other nation on earth.

Alternatively it could be:

Driving in a German car to an Irish pub for a Belgian beer, then travelling home, grabbing an Indian curry or a Turkish kebab on the way, to sit on Swedish furniture and watch American shows on a Japanese TV

[Fabricio the Guido]

At D_C, we do have a constitution, it is just not codified. Magna Carter?

[david_carnell]

I'm aware of the written elements of our constitution. But if you want British people to have the same respect for it that Americans do, you're going to have to do better than asking them to quote the Magna Carta! Or the 1689 Bill of Rights. Or EU statutes. Because they are all part of it.

When I said we didn't have a written constitution I was referring to the lack of a single, comprehensible, accessible document that one could, say, borrow from a library.

One can't loan the Magna Carta last time I checked.

[Fabricio the Guido]

"I would say the following are an inconclusive list of central tenets to being British:

Belief in equality indistinct from race, gender, ethnicity, sexuality, age

Belief in the rule of law

Belief in democracy "

Something about fair play is often mentioned in the same breath. As in, imbibed and learnt, breast milk and the playgrounds of Eton etc.

I dont see why codification alone should lead to greater identification with particular ideals or respect for the principles. The Americans cherry picked their practice from a European tradition.

[david_carnell]

I haven't said that a codified written constitution would help.

I merely asserted that I think those three things are central tenets to the idea of British-ness. I'm others can add more. Your comments regarding breast-milk, fairness and Eton are attempting to portray something else entirely that I'm not entirely convinced by.

[Fabricio the Guido]

"I'm aware of the written elements of our constitution. But if you want British people to have the same respect for it that Americans do, you're going to have to do better than asking them to quote the Magna Carta! Or the 1689 Bill of Rights. Or EU statutes. Because they are all part of it. "

The main difference seems to be the Americans have one document they can point at "the Constitution." You seem to suggest that having one document instead of many sources for the fundamental principles of a society makes all the difference. I am not so sure. what is it then that you think engenders respect for the American constitution?

When I said we didn't have a written constitution I was referring to the lack of a single, comprehensible, accessible document that one could, say, borrow from a library.

"the lack of a single, comprehensible, accessible document" : I thought you meant codification, what did you mean here then?

The reference to breast milk is about the suggestion that there is something innate about being English which atcs as a rudder and ensures fair play in the stormy seas of international relations.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Just to lower the tone, 'dags' are the bits of sheep that are in the direct line of fire at the wrong end and get covered in shit.

[Annette Curtain]

siousxiesue Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Annette, part of the 'courtship' ritual is

> grabbing a girl, sometimes hard/violently, and

> demanding a kiss or essentially choosing her as a

> mate-she gets no say. The women/girls are highly

> restricted in terms of independent movement/work

> etc. They 'liked' them as a dog likes a bone,

> something to possess and devour, very disturbing.

> I call that misogyny

Sounds like a passage from Greer's The Whole Woman

Still horses for courses

:)

Annette

[Tarot]

The basic image that comes over from this programme,is not racial or cultural in any way.

But it highlights a world wide problem of how men totally disrespect women.

They have been led to believe this is their culture and probably if they dont go along with it they would be

beaten or murdered in most cultures,

This is primitive.and women should be given more equality.life is too short to live as a piece of meat and slave,not a life for women.

[Fabricio the Guido]

@Tarot:equality in the workplace in reality has led to the feminisation of work and a drop in wage levels as reactionary as that sounds I think it raises questions about the gains one can achieve within capitalism.On the cultural aspect, these oppressive belief systems are socially determined.How else but through culture and tradition and the economic system is oppression practised?

[Fabricio the Guido]

None the wiser about this "dags" business. Sometimes you need anatomically correct models or to live on a farm.