Admissions to Secondary School

[Mark Dodds]

Any parents here with experience of Admission Failure interested in pooling their observations and making an official FUSS? This has been happening for decades and parents just get divided and conquered every year. It wouldn't take a lot of time to make a focused representation to our MPs and to education departments to at least register dissatisfaction and at best make some change happen.

[Dorothy]

I would, Mark, and have been thinking along the same lines as you. My oldest child is in Year 5, so it is a subject close to my heart, even though she has not failed to get a place yet. But, if you would like my invovlement, then yes.

[Dorothy]

Here is an interesting thread on another forum where you can see parents from Lambeth and Wandsworth discussing how to get their children in to Kingsdale. Towards the end of the thread there are further very interesting links showing how Wandsworth parents lobbied to change the admissions policies of two of their local schools (due to lack of local places) and were apparently partly successful.

[Dorothy]

[[http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/secondary/1153209-Kingsdale-vs-Dunraven]] sorry here.

[Dorothy]

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/secondary/1153209-Kingsdale-vs-Dunraven

ggrrrrr

[Mark Dodds]

Thanks Dorothy, let's see what happens in terms of take up over the next few days? I have three women friends whose children have not been given anything satisfactory:

One boy was not offered a place at all. Anywhere. Kingsdale was his first choice. He says he feels that he has been singled out as a rejection from the system. Southwark say 43 children were not offered places this year.

One boy placed Walworth Academy as first choice and has been offered a place at Peckham Academy. He lives closer to WA than another boy in his class who got a place at Walworth even though it was fourth on his list.

My son has been offered a place at a Roman Catholic all boys, just to be clear; this is not one of his six school choices, and in fact we asked specifically for non faith secular and co-ed placement only.

Several more have been been offered Peckham Academy. None had it on their list. The parents of one are seriously considering, and because of their fear that this worst case scenario may be the outcome because of where they live, they made the necessary pre application moves for private education, sending him to St Dunstan's ?14K. It will be their pension fund they eat into to do this. The others are just in serious disarray and concern and do not have strategies yet.

Three other friends whose children are year five as yours, have been so shocked that their friends' brightest kids have all been thrown onto an education scrap heap have already put their homes on the market to move into catchment for Charter or Haberdashers etc.

Word is that of course the Appeal process has to be entered into but to all intents and purposes it is a total waste of time.

Southwark says just over 200 children have been offered places that were not on their priority list at all. Southwark says 51% of children got their first choice. Southwark say Kingsdale offered 63 places to children from Lewisham. Southwark says Lewisham schools have places empty and we should think about applying to these if we do not like what we're being offered.

One friend has been on mumsnet too, was telling me about discussion there, I'll have a look, and is thinking about the suggestion of sharing information to make a representation outside of the small, fear ridden world of parents and children who've been served very badly, yet again, by a system that patently serves people very poorly.

[MrsDanvers]

I'm very sympathetic to people who find themselves in this position of uncertainty and I do think the admissions system is a mess, but parents do have to get to grips with how the system works to minimise the chances of an unacceptable outcome.

If you are offered a school that wasn't on your list that means you applied to six schools where you didn't have much realistic chance of getting a place. You have to put down at least one school that may not be your ideal but is acceptable, at least in comparison with schools that still have places available in March.

In this case: 'One boy placed Walworth Academy as first choice and has been offered a place at Peckham Academy. He lives closer to WA than another boy in his class who got a place at Walworth even though it was fourth on his list.' What this means is that the second boy's circumstances were different from the first boy's. Did the second boy have a sibling at Walworth? Were they in different ability bands? Were there special social or medical circumstances that applied in the second boy's case?

Schools/admissions authorities don't know whether their school is first or sixth and they are not allowed to give priority to those who rank them higher. This is because otherwise it becomes possible for schools effectively to blackmail parents into ranking them higher than they really want to.

And finally, this one: 'One boy was not offered a place at all... He says he feels that he has been singled out as a rejection from the system.' This boy's family are, I hope, doing their best to explain the system to them. It is not a personal slight. How could it be?

[Mark Dodds]

Oh YEAH. That's a FAB, clear thinking overview Mrs Danvers. What you're saying is "don't apply to schools you haven't got a chance of getting into and do apply to schools that are not right for your children". The boy who did not get Walworth is on the special educational needs register, his S.E.N. coordinator made a strong case for his application to WA which received a verbal positive. The other boy is not S.E.N. but HEY I suppose there's another benign reason to excuse this rubbish situation.

As far as our being realistic goes there is nowhere 'realistic' within reach of where we live. So I suppose we should be a lot richer than we are and we should not live where we do? As for getting to grips with how the system works - 'WE' are quite well informed as it happens and that is why I am particularly irritated by you. My partner is a teacher and chair of governors at a local school, I am a governor at a local school, my parents were teacher, head teacher and local authority education advisor, the other people I mention are highly informed about their choices also and have worked diligently to make the best possible outcomes for their children. We understand the system well - and it DOES NOT WORK. Your position implies only that we should all accept that we live in an educational black hole and just get on with allowing our children to go to schools that cannot serve their needs that will adversely affect their outlook on life for the rest of their natural. Just because it's reality that those schools we do not accept as being acceptable fail their pupils and the families they come from doesn't mean we should let our own children suffer their inadequacies along with their existing pupils.

FACT is there is not enough provision at secondary and it is a damned LOTTERY that inevitably lets society down. It's a conversation that's been going on for decades and there's no reason other than complacency at all levels in our society which excuses it. So stop making excuses for a rubbish system that lets so many people down - or conversely gives them what they rightly deserve - just by chance.

[EDmummy]

Absolutely happy to be told I am wrong, but as far as I understand, only one school local to East Dulwich has an admission policy based on distance to school. The boundaries of which differ from year to year depending on how many kids apply within this radial distance. The others rely on non-verbal reasoning test and banding. No method is perfect but in an attempt to allow a bit of equality into the equation, NVR and banding is the most equitable and does not rely on parents finding the dosh to move closer to a school.

I am as worried as the next parent (going to be struggling through this later this year) but what changes do we actually want? We cannot lobby purely on the basis that the 'system isn't fair'. Lobbying can only be effective if an alternative is put forward. So, what is it you want (and to be fair, it has to be a collective concern rather than individual)?

[Mark Dodds]

Well. My answer is 'let's set up a school' but that will probaly fall on deaf ears. Innit.

[Huggers]

well it certainly fell on deaf ears a few years ago when EDEN, the campaign for a local east dulwich comp tried to get the then Waverley school and its lower unused site (now Harris Boys) turned into a local co-educational comprehensive for local children.

It was all there for the taking, the site, the school, the parental support/demand/proactive energy. But despite what we, the local parents wanted, it was instead turned into two single sex academies. A missed chance.

Why will they listen now?

[zeban]

Spot on EDmummy. So Mark Dodds, you think you can do a better job than all of those schools you think do not meet the needs of your children? Isn't that a little arrogant? Maybe those schools need you to get behind them and improve what we already have. Afterall, I'm sorry but the system had to become more complex because m/c parents used their money to move into areas that had good schools, ending up monopolising them so the system had to change and although seemingly a lot more random, is actually still fairer than just taking distance into consideration.

[Dorothy]

I think most parents would like their children to go to schools 1 and 2 on their list, 3 at a push.

Which leaves choices 4, 5 and 6 ... where exactly?

Is there really any point to having 6 "choices" other than to make it possible for the statistics to show "90% (or whatever) got a secondary school of their choice".

EDMummy - I'd like my children (girl then boy) to go to their nearest co-ed comprehensive school. For me that is Charter or Kingsdale, but I live outside the miniscule Charter catchment area ...

I am not interested in scholarships or banding or even particularly results and league tables. I just want them to go to school locally.

[Ann]

Quite so Dorothy, I think you and Mark have identified a lot of genuine issues, that being that you cannot get your nearest local school, nothing more nothing less.

I hate the use of the word 'lottery' being associated with school admissions criteria. These words should never appear in the same sentence! It gives no confidence whatever to the prospective parent and above all, the child.

It seems to me that there aren't enough local places and with our local population that will only get worse, look at all the 'bulge classes' in our local primary schools.

Sorry to sound so doom and gloom but you do have my sympathy.

[Msgee]

just a thought...

the year my son first went to Kingsdale (three years ago), they were not by any means "full"- as far as I know, a fair few kids who didn't get any of their choices ended up there, as did kids who initially got one of their choice schools and then found they didn't like it. I got a lot of rolled eyes when I said we'd put KD first on the application- a couple of years before I would hazard a guess that Kingsdale would have been the school you got offered if none of your choices came up (in the manner of Peckham Academy, Deptford Green and so on now)

My point is- schools (or, more accurately, their intake/public perception) can change in a heartbeat. If you want a co-ed school- and there's enough of you who do- is it not worth giving these schools a closer look?

[Msgee]

just noticed that

zeban Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Maybe those schools

> need you to get behind them and improve what we

> already have. Afterall, I'm sorry but the system

> had to become more complex because m/c parents

> used their money to move into areas that had good

> schools, ending up monopolising them so the system

> had to change and although seemingly a lot more

> random, is actually still fairer than just taking

> distance into consideration.

what you said ;-)

[Dorothy]

Remind me again, what are the arguments in favour of the banding tests?

Until last year, I naievely thought that state comprehensive schools did no testing or jiggling or setting up a lottery at all.

[Coach Beth]

Thank you Msgee - I was thinking myself reading this debate that just 6 years ago when my son was born and I was tuning into discussions on secondary schools and listening to friends with older children that Kingsdale was a complete 'no-go'. It was completely and utterly dismissed as a school worthy of even being looked at or considered. Now, people are devastated is there children don't get in. Is Peckham Academy such a terrible option really? I take my son there every week for his street dance class after school (Theatre Peckham use the premises) and while I wait, I've had a look round, read about the achievements of pupils and what the school is doing and although it's not an in-depth examination of the school and it's achievements, I've been pretty happy with what I've seen so far. In a few years, it could be the next Kingsdale! I know from my experience as a Goose Green school parent that schools can be achieving far beyond what the last Ofsted claims are - particularly if there is a committment by the senior staff to turn a school around but, like Kingsdale, it takes a few years for the message to sink in and be heard.

[Mark Dodds]

Well zeban your take on it is really positive and you're jumping to arrogant conclusions yourself.

I'm not hand wringing here - what's happening to our son - and to the children of what seems to be most of the other parents we know - has been on the cards for a long time. Since they were born. When our children were born we decided NOT to move out of London, along with a cohort of friends who all decided that we'd not run to the Home Counties or abroad and stay and work through the challenges of inner city living. None of us is unprepared for this - just NONE of us has got a place where we wanted or anywhere near to what we wanted. No we are just a little group out of the three hundred families or so to whom 'parental choice' means nothing whatsoever and a few of us have made a little noise on a local forum - and then we get people like you telling us we're arrogant, or have not done realistic research for our choices. Silly, ridiculous and completely useless observations altogether. What do YOU propose eh?

Ann you are right too, and lottery is not a word that ought to be associated with education, or many other socially significant things in a 21 century advanced economy such as health provision but, unfortunately it is exactly the right term for the system.

Finally to put it bluntly proposing setting up an additional school locally where there is none is just stating one bleeding obvious possibility.

[zeban]

Mark Dodds Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> When our children were born we decided NOT to move

> out of London, along with a cohort of friends who

> all decided that we'd not run to the Home Counties

> or abroad and stay and work through the challenges

> of inner city living.

What do you want, a medal?

I'm sorry, whilst I have sympathy in the general situation of this, I'm finding it hard to sympathise with you.

I already made a proposion, embrace what you've been given, give it a chance, and get behind the school.

I'd also like to add that a little bit of distance isn't that bad. I lived a half hour walk away from my secondary school and walked to school every day with friends I'd made who lived along the journey. It was far better than the exercise I got at school and I made some great friendships! Also, with involved, good parents, which school you go to is not the be all and end all unless your child needs more provisions due to a disability or learning difficulties etc.

[Mark Dodds]

Embrace what you have been given? ARE YOU SERIOUS? A Roman Catholic all boys school? GET REAL MATEY. We are atheist and specifically asked for non faith co - ed on the application form - IF he didn't get a place at any of the six. And, besides given that outrage we ARE embracing the situation pragmatically so get off your high horse.

That being said YOU are missing the point with your 'proposion'. I don't want a medal and certainly do not want, or need, YOUR sympathy; I'm not looking for oohs and aahhs and neither are other people in this situation. We want a better system for everyone including for the children at the schools we do not want our children to go to. You're not offering a solution, just a cop out that goes with the grain of the lottery system.

I'm happy to speak openly and risk being smiped at by people like you because life is too short to keep shut when things aren't right. I want a situation that is rational and gives a good outcome for people everywhere. So. I'm naive and idealistic OK? What's wrong with that?

By the way - how old are YOUR kids and which school are they going to?

[Msgee]

Mark Dodds Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Any parents here with experience of Admission

> Failure interested in pooling their observations

> and making an official FUSS? This has been

> happening for decades and parents just get divided

> and conquered every year. It wouldn't take a lot

> of time to make a focused representation to our

> MPs and to education departments to at least

> register dissatisfaction and at best make some

> change happen.

I'm afraid that, what with the wheels turning as slowly as they do, even if parents do make a fuss to the LEA, any positive results will come years down the line, and be of no benefit to you right now. I would suggest that you get together with the other folk from your school/your friends who have been disappointed with their allocations, and apply en masse to a comp with empty places and, as zeban says, get behind the school.

[Mark Dodds]

Thanks. WE are aware of that. Which school, exactly, were you thinking of? We were considering applying to Lewisham schools - where there is room. Or maybe a comprehensive in Orkney. That would make about as much sense.

[zeban]

Alright please stop shouting with your capital letters! Your situation is pretty ridiculous. I'm athiest too as is my Mum and she wouldn't have been happy sending me to a Roman Catholic School. BUT the other examples you gave are not: co-ed, distnace etc isn't that big of a deal

what is your idea of a rational system given that the seemingingly rational system was monopolised by the wealthy? what is your proposition?

[new mother]

Mark, I think you and your friends should lobby local councillors, your MP, Micahel Gove (education sec as you will be aware), the people at ARK (Busson's outfit) etc.

I think you, additionally, should take legal advice about your human right to religious - or non-religious - freedom. It is completely unreasonable to expect a non Catholic child to go to a Catholic school. (It is NOT the same as expecting a Catholic child to go to a non denominational school if there are no places at the local RC school.)

It really is time that mc people who are being very punished for tax etc and suffering cuts at the same time set out their expectations. A decent education system and a decent functioning NHS are the least of it.