Great angst over a Muslim free school opening in Blackburn.

Good.

The more free schools that open, including creationist etc, the more liberal our society will become.

There is a mistaken view in this country that the more we are all taught the same the more tolerant we become as a society.

Deeeeer, as my kids would say, you only become tolerant with diversity.

Agreed -how could I not?

QED. You've convinced me.

Lest anyone remains in doubt, perhaps you could really hammer the case down by providing examples of where it has worked In this way.

I'm sending my kids to one. I haven't decided. Between the flat earth one, the alternative medicine one, the one That teaches that homosexuality is deeply wrong or the one eugenics one. Can you help me decide?

As long as it makes society more tolerant, I really don't give a stuff.

It's all pretty non sequitur if you ask me. Silver fox's theory is a strawman and I have no idea how schools teaching ignorance makes society more tolerant.

History teaches us that when religion has a sway on thinking, society's anything but tolerant.

But if people want to pay to teach their kids medieval superstition, far be it from me to stand in their way as long as not a penny of my tax is contributed.

MP - you know better than that. Free schools allow parents a greater say in their running but that does not mean that he schools will necessarily pander to fundamental religious views. Those that do will find themselves out on a limb with limited attendance fairly quickly.

Those that deliver good and inspiring teaching, strong values, appropriate discipline and listen to the views of parents will, on the other hand, become successful with parents queuing to place their children there.

Sadly 'strong values' is often a euphemism for religious bigotry, and I imagine there will be no shortage of people who wish to indoctrinate and distort their children by teaching them that prejudice and dogma are more important than an open mind and an inclusive society.

Silverfox's assertion that we become more tolerant by teaching intolerance is staggeringly disingenuous.

Quote:

HugenotSadly 'strong values' is often a euphemism for religious bigotry

Not in my case. I'm an atheist and have often argued this position on here. Strong values I support are decency, honesty, tolerance, pursuit of excellence, being the best at what you do / are.

Sorry MM I didn't mean to imply that these were your values, I meant the buggers who murder their own 16 year-old daughters for 'honour'.

There was a recent report on the Swedish free schools which showed results were worse than the state run schools. I'll see if I can find it again.

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Bikes run on fat and save you money, cars cost you money and make you fat

Is there anything free about a school that has a religious doctrine at the core of it's identity?

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Gooooaaaaalllllll!

DJKillaQueen Wrote:
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> Is there anything free about a school that has a
> religious doctrine at the core of it's identity?

But they don't necessarily have religion "at their core" - some may, others may not. A theme is emerging that appears to be an attempt by opponents of free schools to smear the concept with this ridiculous allegation.

Freedom is indivisible - if some choose to set up a religious based school or one committed to rigid Dawkinite atheism that's OK by me.

"Freedom is indivisible"

You of course know as well as anyone that that simply isn't true.
We accept many limits on freedom to ensure a functional society, whether it be allowing the state a monopoly on violence or outlawing the propagation of extreme, dangerous ideas.

silverfox Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Great angst over a Muslim free school opening in
> Blackburn.
>
> Good.
>
> The more free schools that open, including
> creationist etc, the more liberal our society will
> become.
>
> There is a mistaken view in this country that the
> more we are all taught the same the more tolerant
> we become as a society.
>
> Deeeeer, as my kids would say, you only become
> tolerant with diversity.


Is this meant to be ironic?

I'll tolerate most things but I won't tolerate intolerance.

Quote:

Timster
I'll tolerate most things but I won't tolerate intolerance.

Nice soundbite - meaningless phrase.

If you disapprove of intolerance demonstrate that intolerance is wrong - by argument, humour, word and deed. Do not implement a ban.

As a pretty fervent atheist I found Frank Skinner's recent defence of religion and puncturing of some Dawkinite atheist views both amusing and thought provoking. His was a classic example of a tolerant person confronting a form of intolerance.

I don't want to ban religion!! Or stop people expressing their religious views! When did I say that?

I'm suggesting - and I'm surprised if this is controversial - that maybe there is a pretty good arguable case against funding state schools to indoctrinate children with religion and, in my experience, actively discourage those children from challenging the tenets of that religion. That is not what I call education - and schools are there to educate.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Hamlet, Act I scene v

silverfox Wrote:
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> There are more things in heaven and earth,
> Horatio,
> Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
> Hamlet, Act I scene v

Like what?

Like an addict, silverfox cannot disassociate the hormonal surges he receives in a cathedral when 'Jerusalem' raises the roof from intellectually rigorous arguments about religion.

Silverfox likes that surge. Like Nick O'Teen he wants other people to experience it too.

He can't explain it. He doesn't 'think' he's having a good time. He's genuinely having a good time. The thinking brain is in the bin.

When you challenge 'faith' schools it's like taking a bottle from an alkie. He doesn't care, he's f*cked in the head. He's angry, he quotes nonsense. He wants his bottle back.

When you ask him to stop drinking, he thinks it's your failure because you're not drunk too

I'm sure we would all agree it would be wrong for the state to make us all dress the same way, in Mao Zedong style suits.

Nor would it be appropriate for the state to try to make us all look the same, with the same hairstyles, only one colour of lipstick, eye-shadow etc

While such efforts in social engineering may go some way towards minimising discrimination it would be at the expense of individualism and diversity. This is why the military has these dress and haircut codes.

Why then do some people insist we are all taught the same,in uniform schools all following the same curriculum? Why are some people so frightened by different ideas that conflict with their own?

Well, as it happens silverfox, that's exactly what religion does.

Religion kills dissent and diversity, it kills original thinking and the spirit of enquiry. It takes people who have 'different ideas that conflict with their own' and burns them at the stake.

It takes daughters who want to meet their boyfriend, slits their throats and buries them in the yard.

It sets arbitrary rules based on iron age social issues and applies them to the 21st century. It refuses to accept that they may be flawed.

Then it has the nerve to call people who welcome liberalism and calls them 'discriminatory'...

Those disgraceful practices may still happen in backward parts of the world, eg Iran, Afghanistan etc. Funnily enough, they don't like diversity in their schooling systems either.

Perhaps there's a link?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2011:09:23:09:19:43 by silverfox.

i think the whooshing just broke my windows.

It's not about diversity - I am quite happy about people having diverse views, religions, cultures etc. I just don't think schools are the place to impose those views on others. Silverfox seems to forget that whilst parents may exercise free choice when they send their children to these schools, it is the children that are subjected to rigid and hostile ideas about what is right and wrong.

Children are also subjected to maths and history and brain washing about five a day and global warming - so what?

silverfox Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Children are also subjected to maths and history
> and brain washing about five a day and global
> warming - so what?


Ok. I now understand why I am not going to win this debate.

Quote:

Timster
whilst parents may exercise free choice when they send their children to these schools, it is the children that are subjected to rigid and hostile ideas about what is right and wrong.

But it your wish to "impose" a different sort of rigid & hostile ideas about what is right and wrong. However, you're not obliged to send your children to a religious school - why not allow those with such religious tastes choose their sort of school?

Unless someone can come up with a totally objective and unbiased schools curriculum there will always be those that wish to dissent - let them.

Timster Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> silverfox Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Children are also subjected to maths and
> history
> > and brain washing about five a day and global
> > warming - so what?
>
>
> Ok. I now understand why I am not going to win
> this debate.

Yeah, I wrote and deleted about 8 different responses before realises how pointless it was and gave up.

It's not really a question of winning or losing a debate Timster.

Parents make all sorts of decisions that affect children and impose their beliefs and behaviour on them. Well-adjusted children will eventually make their own minds up. How many children brought up in vegetarian households will be asking McDonalds to supersize them in years to come?