Nursery punishment for 17 mo-appropriate?

[Gooders79]

Just interested in opinions really... I collected my 17 mo from nursery today to find him in a different section of the nursery to all of the other children, he was with an adult who was clearing things away so was safe. When I asked why he had been separated they said he had been bitten 2 other children and tried to bite a third. We have had problems with him biting generally since he was about 9mo but in the last couple of months it's really settled down and doesn't happen very often at all. I wholly accept he shouldn't be biting but to separate him from the rest of the class seemed a bit extreme, or an I being a bit overprotective?

[Pickle]

Had it happened near the end of the day? My feeling would be that it's perhaps fair enough if it was near pickup time, the staff were trying to get the children organised etc. and didn't feel they could properly dedicate time to making sure it didn't happen again. In that situation I could understand that the easiest and safest option for all would be to have him away from the others with an adult.

If it happened earlier and it was an ongoing "punishment", then no, not ok. At 17 months the nursery staff need to be helping him to understand that biting isn't appropriate rather than excluding him.

I'm looking at it purely from a "what would I do" view - I've never had kids in nursery but that's how I'd manage the situation at home if one of my children was doing something similar.

P x

[gwod]

I agree with Pickle, if one of my children was biting other children I would certainly remove them from the scene for a while...especially as sometimes sayng no over and over can create a repeat in the behaviour and you have to do something else to break the cycle.

Also, maybe its something he does when hes over-excited, in which case a bit of calm time could help. I would be concerned however if it was their first line of defence or if he had been separated for a long time (by this a guess I mean half and hour or more)

Certainly something to have an informal chat with them about, especially if you have a prefered method of dealing with it that works that you could share with them...

[shaunag]

I think dealing with biting/scratching etc is a really tough one for nurseries. About 6 months ago my lo was regularly coming home with scratches on her face, and I overheard a parent having a go that it shouldn't be happening to their child as they were also coming home with scratches on a regular basis. It settled down after about a month, but, the Los can get the claws out/bite so fast that it's impossible to stop it happening if the kids are together all day. I wouldn't want to come across my lo being excluded like that, but, provided its not a regular "punishment", it might be a way of getting through to the lo if explaining that its not nice to bite isn't working, and they are getting grief from other parents about their kids being bitten. They should really have explained to you that is how they deal with things in advance though, especially if your son has a history of it and they knew it might happen. I would talk to the nursery and explain if you aren't comfortable with him being excluded without you being told - I guess it feels a little bit like a betrayal of trust as "punishment" is really a parents domain, and any techniques other than explaining things to the child should really be run past you first. Like I said, it's a tricky one and I can see both sides of it, but, a little communication with you in the first place probably would have avoided the upset.

[nunheadmum]

It doesn't seem too extreme to me - teaches him that if he can't be nice to his friends, he won't be allowed to play with them (they won't want to play with him)? All depends how it was explained to him, what had led up to it and how long it lasts for. I often find with my youngest (and naughtiest) that physically removing her from the scene of the crime helps her to realise that it's something that I'm being serious about and expect her to take seriously.

[susyp]

just to say i have sympathy as my one was a biter for a while including in initial days of preschool! In the latter situation it was definitely because she was hungry. We got a book called "doodle bites" by polly dunbar which did get the message across a bit.

i have no idea how nurseries work really but just to add that it only stopped - when , aged 3 and a bit she did it a friend's bbq to a girl we didn't know (again was hungry i think!!) , and after being called into the preschool on a weekly basis about it - I was so angry with her I actually couldn't even trust myself to communicate with her - i took her home, away from all her friends having fun, and put her to bed at 5pm in the afternoon with no conversation, no telling off, just absolute silence apart from the process of going to bed. Never happened again. So the isolation may work. There is a boy in her reception class now who hits and I can understand how parents feel when it happens to their little ones , especialy if they are leaving them for a whole day in nursery.

But I know what it's like to be unable to correct a behaviour despite doing everything you are meant too!

[Gooders79]

Thanks for responses, I know it's really challenging for all involved, I don't really want to be a parent of a biter either and have massive sympathies for the bitten... I think the thing that surprised me was they have never used this as a strategy before, it's more like they just got fed up with him and moved him. I was so surprised I didn't ask how long he'd been separated from the others. normally he bites when overexcited or frustrated, he appears to have slept pretty well today but does seem very tired tonight and also has a bit of a rash so might but getting unwell? They have chosen this week to start him sleeping on mats too rather than in a cot, we only got back holiday last week and he's been tired catching up from jet lag which isn't ideal. He's eaten well at nursery but indicated he was hungry when we got home and has eaten well again.

I collected him about 4:20 today and they are open until 6.

Very tricky, will see whether it happens again and talk to them about it at that point with respect to consistency and duration of his timeout.

[AnnaCBH]

Ask them what their behaviour policy is and acknowledge that your little one is doing the biting and that you've been doing a bit of research and have a few suggestions that you'd like them to try, then give them some.

A method that really works is immediately taking the biter away (even just a few steps back) and showering the bitten person with attention, this shows the child that is doing the biting that they get little or no attention for the biting. Quite often these things happen so quickly and a big scene follows with everyone getting lots of attention (negative or positive attention is still attention) The biter (sadly for you your little one) does need to be told quite firmly that what they have done is unkind and that is has made X sad, they need to be encouraged to then say sorry. But the time out situation can't go on time regardless, if that makes sense?! what I mean is that your child (or the child that is doing the biting), can't be put in a time out for random lengths of time as this is meaningless for him.

I am sorry for you I understand this is just as hard for you as it is for the parents of the little ones that are being bitten. I hope this helps?

[susyp]

my daughter at preschool never bit out of anger, it was always random - like sitting the carpet, or when playing nicely next to someone just leaning over and biting not after an argument or anything. that's why i thought it was hunger. so don' always assume it's because they are angry or frustrated - it is the most likely cause at a younger age but if it is not then explaining why it's wrong just doesn't really work - whereas a shock wake up call like being taken completely out of the sitaution can. But ultimatly , i think it's something they grow out of.

susypx

[Jo'sEnglish]

I don't really have any suggestions and (luckily) don't have a biter (at the moment!) or experience with nurseries but I do have a 17 month old and have to say that some of the things suggested here seem to be a aimed at older kids? My 17 month old doesn't know the word sorry or what it means for example! And I'm not sure how you could 'explain' to him why he has been removed?

That being said, I suppose just taking him away from the situation is a good idea? And a firm 'no'? Agreed, if it was me I would maybe have a chat, find out how long he was removed for and maybe come up with a plan for if it happens again?

[Belle]

Yep, I think 17 months is really young! My 16 mth old gets what 'no' means but can barely speak himself, and I would have a really hard time trying to explain it in anything but the most simple terms. I tend to just say 'no, that hurts, be gentle' but that's as far as I'd go in terms of reprimand and I certainly wouldn't look to 'punishment'. I agree with early posters saying they'd move the child away a bit just in practical terms, to stop them biting more kids. Sometimes i have to e.g. move my younger son away from where my son is playing with his lego if he's trying to wreck it. I'll say something brief when I do this but I don't go into 'this is why I'm moving you etc'. Maybe I'm underestimating him and I'm sure some kids this age will understand more than him, and some less.

[Mrs TP]

Oh dear. One of ours used to bite when she was a toddler and we used to separate her from her older sister and have a time-out situation. She hated it and screamed the house down. But we just would not tolerate this at all and it seemed to work and it passed quite quickly.

Kids do odd things when they are tired etc but they have to understand that such behaviour is not to be tolerated no matter what brings it on.

Detailed discussions with little ones re right and wrong do go over their heads but they do understand positive responses to good behaviour and negative ones to unacceptable behaviour.

[oimissus]

I think you have to go with your gut feeling about the nursery and the care they provide - basically, do you trust them? I don't think any good nursery hands out 'punishments' to toddlers like this, but equally they have to consider all the children in their care and so may respond to a situation differently from how you might at home or in a playgroup. I very much doubt he would have been separate to the others for any length of time, but it was probably the best thing to happen right then - allow the bitten child a chance to recover perhaps (he may have bitten the same child more than once?) and allow him time to settle down, perhaps have some one-to-one with an adult to explain what had happened - and then that would be it, back to playtime only that was when you arrived.

[AllyMcB]

I would ask if your son had been removed as a punishment or simply to try and avoid him biting a third child. I think if he had bitten one child and they had tried to reason with him why it was the wrong thing to do and he didn't have the ability / couldn't understand what they were saying and he continued to bite a second and a third child it makes sense for them to separate him from the other children as he may have gone on to bite a fourth or a fifth. From what I know, what they did sounds like common Behaviour management in a Nursery.

I would also ask for the timings of the bitings as if for example the last time was just before you collected him it would make sense why he was still separated.

Biting can be very emotive and I know one parent of a child who was bitten in daycare wanted the Childcare provider to pass on the contact details of the parents of the child who had bitten him as she was so angry!

[Ole]

I'd probably have a chat with the nursery to find out how often the biting is happening and come to an agreement as to how incidents should be handled, and about using consistent techniques both at home and at nursery to let him know that biting is not acceptable. If it is just an isolated incident I would just let it go, but if he is being punished in this way regularly then I think I'd ask for a proper meeting on the best way forward without having to resort to isolation. I would be mortified to know that my son is biting and I would want to know who he has bitten so that I could have a quiet word with the parents to let them know that I am aware of the situation and trying to remedy it. I think probably most children go through a biting phase, therefore I am sure the parents will understand how you are feeling.

[Ole]

should add when ours went through the biting phase at about the same age we did the time out corner a couple of times and it worked a treat, he knew that if he bit he'd be there for a good minute on his own so he stopped quite quickly after that.

[Gooders79]

Thanks again all for comments and Pms. I spoke to nursery yesterday, different staff to those I'd seen on friday. Two separate staff members said that this was not their usual method of managing a situation, they would normally say very firmly that biting isn't nice, remove him from the situation and he'd have 1 minute of time out. They both said exactly the same thing which reassured me they are managing the situations consistently as they arise and that Friday was an abnormal situation. I have asked them to follow up what the stolen was for Friday, ie. how long it was planned that he was separated and how long he'd been separated...

It continues to be challenging to manage and if other parents of persistent biters have any tips then do let me know! My SIL had a hideous time with her second child until he was 4, my partner bit until he was nearly 5... It can be socially isolating and very difficult to manage relationships with other parents and within my own family have seen a complete variety of responses.