2nd Harris East Dulwich Primary School

[James Barber]

An application for a second East Dulwich Harris free primary school has just gone in. It would open September 2015.

** Update the application has been approved and just looking for a permanent site now. **

Most likely site would be spare space on Harris Girls' Academy East Dulwich on Homestall Road filling a large black hole for primary school admissions.

Our proposed target is that it will be outstanding as per Ofsted and in the top 10% of primary school for England & Wales both in terms of overall results and indivudual pupil progression. To meet these objectives it would be in the top 5%. Exactly the high aspirations we need locally on Eastern East Dulwich.

IF you want to add your support and have children who need reception places September 2015 or 2016 please let me know.

By September 2016 we'll have a shortage of 215-235 primary reception places in the Dulwich area. The already agreed first Harris Primary school for East Dulwich will provide 60 places, the Judith Kerr school just opened this week provides 25 based on distance, The new Dulwich Hamlet schools would relieve around 30 places from Goose Green School. The Bessemer Grange extra class will add 30 places. Expanding Ivydale will help slighly in our area.

But this still leaves circa 60 extra required spaces.

Hence the need for this second Harris primary school.

[edhistory]

James Barber Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> Most likely site would be spare space on Harris

> Girls' Academy East Dulwich on Homestall Road

Where is this "spare space"?

John K

[bibimax]

James,

Can you please provide details of any new secondary schools that will be opening?

I love how you mention a "black hole" for primary where are all these kids going to go after year 6...we need more mixed comps in the area.

Thanks

[James Barber]

I agree and East Dulwich councillors are working on this at the moment and will announce something in 2-3 weeks time.

[Renata Hamvas]

How odd, James.

I was told by council officers that in discussions with Harris, they had been informed by Harris that there was insufficient space on the Harris Girls' School site to put a primary school there. This is also going to be very close to the expansion of Ivydale onto the Former Bredinghurst site, on Stuart Rd they would be only around 200m apart! Also, this is the first year that Harris Boys' school has been 11-16. I wonder if the Sixth Form Centre, with all the new regs on staying in education or training moving towards age 18, will this have capacity for the bulk of children coming through Harris Boy's and Girl's school? The Girls' school does have some outside space for outdoor sports, but as Harris Girls' is a specialist Sports Academy this should be used for Sports so I sincerely hope they have not got plans to built on the Harris Girls' outside sports area.

Any Harris Girls' parents out there, have you been consulted on this?

Renata

[James Barber]

Hi Renanta,

A number of times I've tried engaging you in private to work together on schools places. You've ignored those olive branches everytime. You seem only to want ot talk to me via the East Dulwich Forum - bizarre.

Your comment about council officers and the proposed site is weird because I was speaking directly with Harris and they've not said this - either their project manager or director of projects during 121 conversations.

The distance would be 400m as crow flies or 500m walking.

It wouldnt encroach on any sports space but on land used previosuly for school buildings.

Harris see no negative impact of doing this for existing or future pupils but do see synergies of sharing running costs - that leaves more money for teaching.

We have a wider dulwich area shortfall of 215-235 reception places by September 2016. A second Harris Primary school there would be fully funded both building and running costs by the government and provide 60 places towards this shortfall.

Harris have a significantly better track record of creating outstanding scholls and the speed at which they do this than Southwark or the other options suggested by you.

So despite my huge anti free school angst when they were first proposed they appear a great solution for the actual children and families involved.

[edhistory]

> It wouldnt encroach on any sports space but on land used previosuly for school buildings

Where?

John K

[buggie]

While I agree a new primary school is needed, and would be in a location that could be advantageous to us, am slightly alarmed by all the aspiration all talk of high achievements and top 10% of performance - sounds more like a hot house than a primary school for young children just starting out.

Would rather be hearing how nurturing and encouraging the school will be instead of where it wants to be in league tables.

[Belle]

James and Renata, I think you're both great the way you come and inform us/respond on here but it's hard when you engage in(what comes across as) political point scoring! The only way it's workable for politicians to engage on a forum like this is when they play it very straight, and I know you do both do that a fair bit - but it's quite off-putting to see the snidey comments on here, and doesn't do either of you any favours. Hope that doesn't put you off posting as I think it's laudable that you do it.

Back on the schools point, I'd also be interested to know what the projected situation is for secondary given we know there is going to be a shortage in 6/7 years time (if there's not already, haven't got to that stage yet).

[hellosailor]

buggie Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> While I agree a new primary school is needed, and

> would be in a location that could be advantageous

> to us, am slightly alarmed by all the aspiration

> all talk of high achievements and top 10% of

> performance - sounds more like a hot house than a

> primary school for young children just starting

> out.

>

> Would rather be hearing how nurturing and

> encouraging the school will be instead of where it

> wants to be in league tables.

Couldn't agree more

[simonethebeaver]

A lot of Ofsted is paperwork and box ticking. There's so much more to a school than that. I'd rather my kids went to a Good school (I gather they're no longer allowed to be Satisfactory without being turned into academies) that felt warm and fun and caring than an Outstanding one where that wasn't the case.

[midivydale]

James and Renata,

Your input and updates on this forum is invaluable for us parents who are concerned about tbe lack of school places. Please keep those updates comming.

The comments above are ridiculous though. Agree with Belle it is off putting and does not do anything to improve the opinion people have of politicians.

Keep up the good work you do - but seriously - cut out the rest.

[Skegness]

I like the political debate. Adds spice and gives valuable insight into the way the council works and how the different political parties work locally. Though both are often helpful, Renata's posts are usually far more focused on social justice for all local families whereas James comes across as wanting more choice for people like himself (as long as the choice is Harris;)). It's good to get a sense of these things!

[Scribble]

It's not political debate though, on this thread...it's petty squabbling that comes across as office politics and furthering personal agendas rather than helping anyone else.

So James and Renata - rather than these digs at one another that only undermine you and any meaningful message you might actually be able to convey, I've got a genuine request.

Please could you lay out your key stances regarding education and they key issues that you are currently tackling / prioritising in this area?

[James Barber]

Hi Scribble,

As an opposition councillor my focus is on ensuring we have sufficient excellent school places for all school children. Stating the obvious but being a councillor for East Dulwich that's my main area of focus.

Excellent in terms of ambition for our children to help them develop their full potential.

The advice I've had is that the ideal primary school size is two or three forms per year (60-90 pupils) the former being easier to give a great child focused experience. The latter size has much larger budgets making for more financial flexibility. So also focused on ensuring lcoal schools are of that optimum size. Hence the ?5M support for St.Anthony's expanding from 1.5FE to 2FE.

Council forecasts are of a 215-235 shortfall in places by Sept 2016 in the Dulwich area. That's a massive gap to close. Hence why we've spoke to just about all local school providers but Harris were one of the few that wanted to provide more schools, had ambition for our children, and credibility with DfE to deliver.

But we've also supported the Judith Kerr bilingual free school proposing a number of sites including the one they've finally settled on.

I should add originally I was dead against academys and free schools. But local councillors don't get to change national policies. After much reflection about who can provide great schools and how quickly they can become great - and local councils don't have great records - reached the conculsion even quite good ocuncils such as Southwark wont provide great learning environments sufficiently quickly.

National rules have two main routes to open new schools:

1. the lcoal authority advertises for someone to open a school the LA thinks they need - anyone can apply and it risks shall we say more unusual providers.

2. free schools.

I've favoured the latter approach to maximise the control over who provides the capacity we need by leading the free schools to apply that we want. The former option also requires the council to have successfully applied for basic needs grant which Southwark has failed at.

Hope that answers your question.

As for petty. Who provides a school is really important. It affects chance and speed of becoming a great school.The process they take affects whether it's paid for by the government or council and chance of getting of the ground and how quickly it can open. They typically cost ?5-10M each at primary level. For example Harris applying now will could open a new school 18 months later via the free school route. Dulwich Hamlet opening a new school via the LA seeking bidders route may or may not succeed and if they do it's likely to open a year later. It may appear petty quabbling but it makes a material difference to the outcome.

[Renata Hamvas]

80% of Southwark?s Primary schools have been judged by Ofsted to be good or outstanding, which is in the top quartile of performance nationally; so our schools are doing very well! When I speak to residents, they are happy with our local schools. The greatest concern of parents is being able to secure a place in one of the local primaries for next year or 2015. Prior to the 2013 start of term, I already have had one meeting to discuss 2014 entry, because I want to give the best possible help and advice to residents. My advice to the parents who contact me is to look at the Southwark Starting Primary brochure http://www.southwark.gov.uk/info/200172/school_admissions and check the distances of the last place offered of the local schools (but remembering that this varies) and to visit schools including the less popular ones. Finally, to put down six schools in order of preference on the CAF form. I have helped many parents on a one-to-one basis. Southwark was able through careful pupil planning to offer every applicant who applied on time a place in a Southwark primary school this year. As an Local Authority we are doing everything possible to deliver on school places; however we need funds to provide these, there is not enough money going directly to LAs to expand our popular and successful schools. All the temporary and permanent expansions are done following detailed site assessments and in conjunction with Head Teachers and Governors in order to ensure they are not done to the detriment of pupils.

The Conservative /LibDem Government's flagship Free School program is supposed to be one vehicle of achieving extra pupil places; at what cost, however, to our children. One of the Free Schools in the Borough has its second year of intake into a TRA (Tenant & Resident Association) Hall on a Southwark estate. There is no mechanism to prevent Free Schools opening in unsuitable temporary accommodation. I am concerned about the Harris Free School planned for the East Dulwich area for 2014. They have received DFE approval, so will get funding, but where will they go? Where will their site be (Dulwich Hospital keeps being mentioned, but not LA or Harris owned), ready for an intake in a years? time in a residential area?

As I have mentioned above in this thread, I am also concerned about the plans for another Harris Primary to be set up on the Harris Girl?s Site in 2015. Like the Boys ?school this is a 150 pupil intake secondary. Harris Academy@Peckham reduced its intake by one form of entry when the primary was built on site. My most major concern over this, is, whether building a whole new primary school on this site, would be at detriment to the current school and its pupils, current and future. If a school was built here, would Harris Primary, Boys and Girls schools form a through 4-18 Academy with automatic entry to secondary, if so what impact would this have on other residents in the area? This proposal does lead me to ask many questions; hence I am meeting with the Head, Jane Fletcher next week to discuss this. Later today, I have a meeting scheduled with Helen Ingham, the Head of Ivydale about the Ivydale expansion onto the Stuart Road Site.

If residents wish to read in more detail about the Council?s primary school place strategy over the next few years, a link to the Cabinet report on the Southwark website is here:http://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/documents/b6671/Supplemental%20Agenda%20No.%201%20Tuesday%2016-Jul-2013%2016.00%20Cabinet.pdf?T=9

From 2016 onwards (current year 4s) there will be increased pressure on secondary places in the Borough. I have had a couple of discussions with Council Officers over this and there are plans for increasing Secondary places in the Borough to address the forecasted place shortfalls. In my opinion, even more challenging than primary, not only increased classroom numbers and teachers, but secondary pupils need more specialist facilities such as science labs etcetera and whole new schools need much more space than a primary site.

I am a Peckham Rye Ward Councillor, but I?m happy to help any local resident through the school application process.

Renata

edited to sort out links!

[James Barber]

csluyuan,

No they don't plan to build on outside sports facilities as I understand it.

Hi Renata,

Yes our schools are mostly good or outstanding. But its taken a very long time to reach this overall standard.

Responding to your points. First the council can't build new schools under Tony Blair rules not rescinded and we need new schools. So its either free schools or the council has to advertise for people to open new schools. This risks bodies none of us would feel comfortable with getting to open new schools.

Second Southwark has one of the nations poorest record of providing peoples first choices or a school place families didnt want.

This is surely someting even you will agree is embarassing?

Expanding existing schools. All our popular schools already have 2 or 3 form entry. Educationlaists tell us going above these sizes risks our children's education. So I disagree. Southwark should not be planning under your administration to boost school sizes above the ideal for children.

But the government will fund free schools. Fortunately for the new Dulwich Hamlet proposed new school and Bellenden children your council leader has finally agreed to support them taking the free school route. Hallelujah.

You've then cited one free school temporary school site. I've not visited it. Have you?

Second Harris primary school. Harris do not plan to reduce the secondary school admissions if a primary schoo lis added to that site. Possible admissions criteria. This has yet to be decided and families lending their support will inlfuecen this as will anyone responding to the two stage public consultation.

But you would know this if your cabinet member for education was willing to meet with Harris.

Saying that glad to hear you're meeting the girl headteacher - I'm sure you'll be much happier afterwards.

[intexasatthe moment]

Squabbling or debating I find the interchange between the 2 councillors very illuminating . I also find Renata's posts include more detail and fact .

" My most major concern over this, is, whether building a whole new primary school on this site, would be at detriment to the current school and its pupils, current and future. If a school was built here, would Harris Primary, Boys and Girls schools form a through 4-18 Academy with automatic entry to secondary, if so what impact would this have on other residents in the area ? " - Renata I share your concerns .

James you've been asked twice for more specific details about where on the Waveney site the primary school would be built ?

Do you know ? Can you enlighten us ?

[James Barber]

Hi ITATM,

I don't have plans but have been assured space exists.

I'm mindful of people complianing we're squabbling so have tried to minimise my response.

[intexasatthe moment]

Apologies James but I don't find that your reply puts my mind at rest and I would prefer specific details .

I wonder what standards/yardstick/vision is being used by whoever is assuring you ?

Obviously the Harris ED Boys School met statutory regulations but I think it provides a woeful space for teenagers to spend their day .

I say "obviously" but nothing surprises me - buildings can be delisted when demolition is required ( Pimlico School ) , planning requirements stating that certain access widths are required can suddenly become flexible ,the Harris Boys School in ED can have the architect suggesting staggered starting times , timetabling tweaks ( off site sports scheduled so that lunch times can be sacrificed ) and segregated dining times all as a means to cope with lack of physical space .

So I'm as wary of the Harris track record on what is deemed to be adequate space as I am of trusting that planning regulations can be relied upon . ( ScorchyTalky in Fenchurch St ? ).

[intexasatthe moment]

As for " squabbling " perhaps we could have a forum vote ? As I've said ,I find it very illuminating .

[KalamityKel]

Itatm just remember some councillors are known for saying things that are completely untrue then deny saying what they said... blah blah blah. Unless its all made official - actual facts - you really cant/shouldnt take much seriously.

A thing that annoys me with all this drivel on statistics over quality of schools is surely ALL schools should be at a high level regardless if theyre new or old and how can anyone possibly predict the standard of a school that doesnt exist? Is this just a ploy,preying on parents that, yes want the best for their children, but are gullible to the unrealistic lines fed by councillors who will support council plans just because theyre led to believe what they hear/read?

Would be nice,in and ideal world, there werent any hidden agendas whether based on politics or personal gain (we all want to be liked dont we?) Ugh!

[intexasatthe moment]

Spot on KK .

And quite agree re " some councillors are known for saying things that are completely untrue then deny saying what they said " . That's one of the reasons I like to read their comments/debate/squabbling where they make statements .

Though I've learnt the futility of pointing out or trying to persue any reversals ,untruths .I just think the interchange tends to highlight their true colours .

[James Barber]

Hi KK,

Did you have any particular councillors in mind?

I agree about aiming for ideal school sizes but in London to provide all schools with the ideal space would require compulsory purchases of a lot of adjoining residential homes. Not many instance such as Dicken Primary School where roads can be closed to provide extra space.

Locally for example Heber School would ideally have a larger playground.

Should Southwark Council do this?

It couldnt afford the ?1m per neighbouring home. It would take many homes to make a real difference. We have a shortage of homes in London.

BUT if anyone can think of local schools with sections of road that could be subsumed a la Dickens Primary school I'd be keen to hear from them.

[Renata Hamvas]

Hi all,

just to say I had a very good meeting with Nunhead Councillor Fiona Colley (the Ivydale expansion involves two wards, Peckham Rye and Nunhead), a council officer and the Head of Ivydale, Helen Ingham yesterday. Its looking very exciting, Helen has some great ideas, but its all in early stages at the moment.

Renata