3 yr old issues - please help!

[jennyh]

Hi everyone

Apologies in advance, this is going to be a long post! Thanks in advance for those who managed to stay to the end!

Daughter is 3.5 and is ultimately a sweet girl with lovely nature and is helpful and kind and caring yet recently she has turned into the devil and I am really at a loss with what to do. We've had difficult toddler times as everyone does and have generally managed to get through these phases fairly well but what we have now is so far from that and my parenting instinct has run dry.

Current behaviour includes slamming doors, falling on the floor sobbing and shaking with emotion, looking so angry as if she wants to break things (but fortunately stopping herself), throwing things, being incredibly rude, shouting at us, refusing to do the things we ask her, pouting constantly, always trying to negotiate everything. We have had the 'you're not my friend' for a long time but now it is joined with 'I don't like you' and 'I don't want to see you anymore'. She must repeat these mantras daily, usually every time we have a disagreement about something which is all the time.

Having always ben a fussy eater, she gave up eating a few weeks ago and by this I mean she would rather be so hungry her belly hurts than give in and eat something I made her. We have slightly remedied this by trying to eat more together and she now knows that trying something is all she needs to do, she doesn't have to finish her food etc. Its a whole other story really but the mealtime fighting has notched up a few levels since she has become so unpleasant.

We are being horrible to each other and none of us are particularly happy. Bedtime has become a nightmare and I have had to start locking the door because she escapes and goes to wake up her brother. (I always go back in once she is calm and we make up before she goes to sleep). I just hate this constant arguing and fighting, she is only 3!!! I am struggling to be the adult because she makes me so mad, I know I shouldn't be such a witch but I am so knackered with a 7 month old baby too and this behaviour just isn't acceptable. I do all the things you shouldnt, pick her up aggressively, put her down on the naughty step aggressively, snatch her toys off her and shout myself but I am really out of control and not sure what to do...hence this plea for help :-(

She started a new nursery in April (having been at another one since she was 7 months old) and we moved house last November, brother arrived in January. After a rough couple of weeks settling in she seemed a lot happier there but still prefers to be at home and often talks about her old nursery. I spoke to her key worker this morning about what we are experiencing in case she could shed some light on whether she is picking anything up there. She said that some of the girls can be quite pouty and stroppy which they have picked up from older siblings and my daughter is probably mimicking that a bit. She said that she is really placid and timid at nursery and cannot assert herself because there are some really strong characters and because she is new so she often lacks confidence and plays alone etc. Just typing this breaks my heart a bit (stupid hormones!) As a result it would make sense that she feels free to display her strength and stubbornness at home so we end up with this fireball of frustration and angst.

So what do I do?? What do I say in those instances where she says she doesn't like me? What do I do when she misbehaves to start a fight (yesterday she was trying really hard to get me to take her favourite teddy away by whacking her brother over the head with it repeatedly) She loves the drama of the big sobbing fit, the slumping to the floor and rolling around. I know I need to create a more positive environment and try to build her confidence because all she gets at the moment is me saying she is being horrible, she isn't nice to be around, she is annoying etc. I KNOW i shouldn't say this stuff but I think I am at the end of my tether with it all and don't even want to see her. Im afraid of her!!!

It just seems like such a mess and I need some skills to get out of it. Need some rules to try and turn it around and give her consistency. She has no real punishment for things, or certainly nothing that is consistent so she doesn't really know what will happen when she is naughty, sometimes no tv, sometimes I take her teddy away, sometimes shut her out of the living room, all a bit up in the air. I have tried to spend mother/daughter time with her and we have been to the zoo, the theatre and swimming lessons etc together but she says she wants us all to be together so I am not sure if that helps. She always gets a good hour at the end of the day to do books and wind down but the prob is that she is eating into that time by kicking off so ends up being a horrible end to the day. I think she would benefit from a nap but refuses and if she does fall asleep at nursery we end up fighting until 10pm to get her down. She would benefit from an earlier bedtime but can't manage that as my youngest doesn't nap well in the day so has to go to bed by 7pm and I can't do them both on my own.

Any words of wisdom? Or even just encouragement to stop me from feeling like a horrible mum who makes my 3 yr old miserable!? I grew up feeling I was always in the way, or a problem for my mum (something that causes me massive issues now) and I am worried that if I can't get some sort of control over this situation and start turning it around she will have a similar feeling of little worth. Argh, who said parenting would be so challenging!!???? I yearn for some simplicity and positivity because I actually feel this daily grind is making me a little depressed!

Sorry for the stream of consciousness rant. Husband finds it hard to listen to this kind of stuff so thanks everyone!

[Red Pebble]

Sorry I don't have any words of wisdom but didn't want to read and run. I hope you've had lots of PMs as I'm sure there are lots of members who have experienced similar.

It does sounds like you've all had a lot of change in your life recently which can be unsettling on everyone and new siblings can cause strange/bad behaviour in existing children. Does she behave the same with your husband? If you're feeling quite stressed and annoyed maybe she can sense this? Have you thought about relaxing yourself a little bit - maybe a day/evening out with a friend or something (I know might not be possible with little ones!).

Anyway I hope someone has better advice for you xxx

[oimissus]

Husband finds it hard to listen to this kind of stuff

reading your post it jumped out at me that you don't mention him at all. How is he helping with this, do you co-parent well together? Because when I'm at the end of my tether DH steps in, and vice versa - if it's been a bad day he takes over from the minute he walks in the door. It's very hard to parent well when you feel unsupported.

Off the top of my head it sounds like it could be antural reaction to several changes in her life, moving house, changing nursery, little brother coming along. I only have the one so can't advice on that, hopefully someone else will come along. But my DD has certainly had her vile moments and I sympathise, it's hard getting through them. I get 'you're not my best friend' a lot, I've now told her it's meaningless as she says it so much!

I think earlier bedtime could be key, again not something I've had to do but hopefully someone will be along with advise for doing the bedtimes in tandem - bath together? Story for DD whilst baby has milk? Back to DD for quiet chat once baby is down? Sorry, not much help!

[jennyh]

Thanks to you both for stopping to read and reply!

I don't really mention him oimissus because I guess I do feel I'm doing most of this stuff on my own. Without airing all our dirty laundry and doing him an unfair disservice, we are definitely in a period of adjusting to another little person in the house and how our roles play out with work/home/money/kids/us all being constantly up in the air. He tries to make it home for bedtime but cannot do it regularly so causes issues when he gets in during books and she kicks off for his attention. i imagine if it was a regular thing that he appeared before bedtime she would expect it but at the moment it can't really be like that because of how hard he works and the fact he cycles to and from hammersmith! She gives him the same sort of treatment, sometimes worse than me because she can see that it bothers him and it does, he finds it very hard. I think because I am around her more I get more sick and tired of it and when we discuss it he doesn't really see the extent of things and frankly he comes home late from a long day and neither of us want to have a serious chat about home stuff! Weekends tend to go past in a blur but hopefully once I arm myself with a bit of an idea of how to move forward we can combine our efforts on one path.

Sadly my son is a really live wire and finds it impossible to calm so I have to give him milk in the dark and give him space to unwind otherwise he is a little ball of stress when I put him down, my daughter gets in his face right up until the moment I take him into his room so he def needs that time otherwise he spends a good half hour crying whilst I am then trying to put her to bed which then upsets her more as I have to keep leaving her to go to him. hmmm...how to split yourself in two!?

They bathe together and then she plays for the 20 mins it takes me to do his milk and down and then we do her teeth and pick stories etc, dry hair if needs be. She just enjoys refusing it all for the fun and games it entails. Anything to get a bit of extra attention at bedtime and drag it out.

I know much of this is usual behaviour and I do tend to overreact because I am really wound up so its a very valid point to try and get out for an evening a week and I will endeavour to because I do think that is key. Age old boring issue of the fact I am too tired and beaten by 8pm to even think about going anywhere other than bed ;) As I previously alluded to, I have some childhood skeletons in my closet which have left me with a rather hefty anxiety issue so find it hard to see the wood for the trees (FYI have had lots of counselling, hypnotherapy, CBT). Chances are she really isn't that tricky at all but I'm too involved in the nitty gritty to see the good bits when I am being shouted at all the time :) If I could just get to grips with how to manage these episodes most effectively!

[susyp]

I would say that this is normal behaviour but it's hard to see this when you re in the middle,of it. I,ve posted off and on in a similar vein. What tends to change it is me stopping and trying something new. Firstly I wouldn't worry about food- I found age 3-4 the worst for eating, and the more fuss I made the worse it got. But she is largely fine now at 6! Secondly if you implement something that helps you calm down that helps. So some sort of reward or sticker chart, timeouts- anything that is consistent. We did a short rule list after a similar period and that helped. I think sometimes they just need the boundaries very very clearly defined. I still struggle and I try and catch myself when I am nagging over unimportant stuff! Also setting challenges works for us- racing to get dressed etc.

When you re in it you kind of forget they are so little and it's only when you stop and look from outside it that you realise you can take the control.

Also, I ve always found super nanny really relevant and helpful- she has a website and some books.

Sure you'll get lots of good advice but wanted to reassure you that to me at least this doesn't sound unusual.

Other thing that helps with mine is introducing a new activity eg class to stimulate her - pre school bad behaviour was often due to boredom with mine.

Susypx

[EmilyPie]

Definitely doesn't sound unusual, although it feels awful when you're in the middle of it, especially dealing with the baby too. For us dropping the nap has been a massive problem. He is 3 1/3 and if he has one getting him down at night is a nightmare, if he doesn't behaviour just gets worse and worse until we get to the point where we have shouting, defiance and tantrums from the moment he wakes up. I have been doing a lot of parenting through gritted teeth! Not sure there's much you can do about that aspect of it, except wait it out until they adjust. I have found going back to work part time has really helped me because I get a bit of adult space and it isn't only my responsibility anymore. Obviously not easy to implement but worth thinking about ways you can get a bit of space for yourself, if at all possible. I've also found this thread on mums net helpful. http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/behaviour_development/2002053-Does-anyone-else-want-to-come-and-be-a-better-parent-with-me?pg=19&order= It is very long but there are lots of links to useful resources and approaches in the first few pages. I also just found it incredibly helpful to read about other people experiencing similar issues. It made me feel less alone with it. Finally I would try and cut yourself some slack. Kids change quickly. We as parents change too. A period where you're all rubbing each other up the wrong way doesn't spell disaster forever. Especially as it sounds like you are reflective and thoughtful about how you can improve things. Even if you can't always apply that in the heat of the moment. It will get better! Wishing you lots of luck!!

[Yak]

I am writing in haste so excuse bullet point ideas,but I wanted to share my thoughts (discard any which aren't helpful and excuse any typos!)

- you are not alone. I defy anyone's three year old to be good all the time - perhaps she is trying extra hard to be "good" at nursery and so feels the need to kick back at home?

- tiredness. My 3 year old is KNACKERED at the moment. He resists going to bed early too but can you have a super relaxed pyjama morning once in a while. Or even some time off together during the week with your OH too?

- star charts. "No whinging / silly crying on the floor on way home from nursery" gets a sticker and huge amounts of praise in our house. This might be a bit odd but I also have a star chart to show how I am trying to do certain things better so we both get to do stars / no stars before bedtijme

- hunger/ tiredness - you. The end of the day I am knackered too and more than likely crabby and being hungry doesn't help me handle my own emotions let alone a toddlers. So snack time and extra coffee with sugar before hitting bedtime routine. I don't know if that would help at all but I wanted to mention it because it sounds like you have very very little time just for you and you might be forgetting to look after your own needs....

- saying sorry occasionally. Sometimes if I have parented particularly badly I explain why how his behaviour made me angry / sad but that I am sorry that I snapped / shouted and that was the wrong action etc. I think if we are asking our kids to say sorry and acknowledge their own behaviour - without undermining the validity of the underlying emotions - we should do the same ourselves. (I am not in any way suggesting you don't already do this, but more of a reminder to myself...)

EDITED TO ADD

- you're doing wonderfully. You are keeping alive and thriving 2 small human beings with what sounds like little on hand support in the really hard parts of the day. That is a pretty awesome thing. xx

[susyp]

second the before bed having a little something to raise the blood sugar/mood -for you! Bedtime can be hard! Currently I am having a piece of comforting marmite on toast just before we go up but I have been known to have a glass of red!

[Belle]

Agree it's really hard, we had this a lot and still do with my son who's now 5.5, but I well remember the tricky bedtimes when my younger refluxy baby was struggling to get to sleep and my older son would play up. And it is really very tortuous being screamed at by your child. Me and my older son do sometimes end up yelling at each other, and then we "make up friends" as he puts it. What I would say in hindsight - and can see more clearly now I have my younger son, who is approaching 3 - is that 3 is still very young. So poss a bit young to do the 'make up friends' chat but definitely agree with Yak about the saying sorry bit, might encourage her to do the same?

Do you think she is happy at nursery? Are there other options if not, maybe worth looking around? Sometimes the fit is just not right - particularly if she was very settled elsewhere before. At about this age my son started school nursery sessions w hich helped enormously. I'd been worried he was too young, it would lack the intimacy of his previous setting etc, but it really suited him and he loved it. And it helped me a lot too. It seemed more stimulating than a daycare setting, as it's just sessional, so more focused if that makes sense? Which obviously tired him out a bit too ;)

Sorry not to have more to say but overriding thought is, please don't feel bad because everything you've written I could have written myself at the same stage (still could at times) and I think you are looking at yourself in a very harsh light. Try to remember all the good things/times too.

[Lochie]

Hi Jenny,

I have a nearly 5 year old son and a 2.5 year old daughter. My son has been especially hard to handle since my youngest turned 6 months old (so my son would have been about 3 years old). I remember it specifically because when pregnant with my second a lot of people told me to expect my son to be a bit jealous and act up when she was born. This didn?t happen at first, but it did eventually when she was over half a year old and slept less during the day and generally started merging from a new born to a little person i.e. a rival! I do think there is a lot to be said for the older sister reacting to the arrival of a younger sibling ? the whole focus of a household?s attention shifts from being just on the one child to two.

My son is still very difficult to this day and takes great joy in winding up his sister ? I would say he spends about 90% of his day doing this (he is off to school in September so am hoping that will make being at home less intense). I like you find it really hard to ?be the adult? when my son acts but I do just find it so frustrating, like there is no solution, and when I shout it is often out of exasperation more than anything. There have been times when I have run out of consequences for bad behaviour and I realise that is because he doesn?t take the ones I set particularly seriously because I rarely see them through e.g. sometimes I might say ?if you do that again you won?t go to X?s party?, then of course I give in because I am too tired. So I would say its important to be taken seriously when setting consequences, make sure you stick to them.

A couple of things have helped:

- Spending time away from the younger sibling. My son can be really lovely when I have 1:1 time with him and last year we started up ?Mummy Day? where one day a month just me and him would go on a day trip together (e.g. Tower of London)

- Working ? I work more than half the week and that is a god send to me from the point of view of becoming a nicer mum when I get home, having been away for the day and desperately looking forward to seeing my kids at 5.30.

I do think you need to cut yourself some slack, like someone else said. The fact that you are even worrying about this shows how much you care.

When things are at their hardest I also try to remind myself that all stages pass eventually (I HOPE!!)

[crystal7]

I found my daughter could be a bit of a horror at this age, 3 is worse than 2 in my opinion! As previous posters have said, give yourself a break, life with a baby and toddler is relentlessly hard work.

Absolutely don't mean is to sound patronising (and I forget to do it myself) but make sure you praise your daughter as much as you can. Every time she does something kind, grown up, helpful etc. it's sometimes hard to spit good behaviour but I find both of my children's behaviour improves with a positive approach. We used to give my daughter a marble in a jar for good behaviour, when the jar was full she could have a treat.

My daughter used to say she didn't like me, wasn't my friend anymore, (she still does although now daddy tends to get those delightful comments). I just say well I love you but you need to to x,y or z. If you feel yourself losing your patience just implement timeout if she'll stay there. Otherwise remove her from wherever you are. Timeout is for parents more than kids!

Like Yak I try to say sorry when I've snapped/been grumpy/shouted, I helps sometimes.

Try and pick your battles. Would mealtimes be easier if you served picky things that you know she will eat? I used to let my daughter watch TV while she ate dinner on nursery nights but I know that's not for everyone.

Like Belle it's only since having my second child who is approaching 3 that I realise how young it is. My eldest always seemed really grown up because of the baby but really I think her level of understanding was nothing like I thought.

Good luck!

[Convex]

Just some sympathy here. Mine isn't that bad (yet, he is younger than yours!) but we do have difficult moments.

I just wondered if some kind of (very experienced) mothers help would be beneficial? I don't think I could do bedtime myself, am planning to see a sleep consultant to help us with our sleeping here, but it takes 1 of us for each kid.

My son behaves differently for others than for me. Perhaps this could break the cycle, or at least give you a break!

[jennyh]

Thank you kind people for all your wise and positive words. Really makes a big difference, this parenting game gets you down sometimes!

Some really great ideas on here so Im really thankful. We do make up with a big cuddle after a blazing row but it takes the full on tears and break down before she is inclined to want a hug, that said we both feel much better afterwards. Usually once I have a grip on my patience I will def say sorry and try to explain things, I think part of the prob though is that I definitely think she is older than she is so my explanation is well intended but perhaps a bit too complex for her brain to compute! :) I have also been thinking I look at her as a lot older and wiser than she is, partly because she is at a stage where she wants to do everything herself so can dress herself, get in and out of the bath, put on her shoes etc without needing my help and I forget that she struggles to make sense of a lot of emotive stuff.

She is such a brilliant big sister and has never really exhibited obvious signs of jealousy so I also forget that she prob does feel them. She loves getting all his clothes for him and plays with him so nicely most of the time, they have a really special bond and neither me nor my husband are really allowed in on that action, she makes it very clear that only she can make him laugh etc. Inside jokes already. That said things are obviously different and even though she is desperate to spend every waking moment hugging him she is prob battling inside with the different emotions. When I ask her about doing things with just me or just her dad she always says she wants us to do everything together!!

I love the idea of the marbles because that makes it so easy to see the progress. I am also thinking of getting sand timers because she never understands how long her turn is etc so seeing these things in front of her shouly help. Also love the idea of the sticker charts for both of us, I feel sorry for her when she is the one always doing wrong and there is no notable punishment for us when we are mean. Similarly her brother is too little to really get in on the action yet so its just her being stood out as troubled child. Yak - can I ask what you give yourself stars for? I def want her to see that I also miss out if I shout or I say something rude etc so thinking of the best way to do this...how does the process go?

I would def love to work but have had the chat with work and can't see how I can afford the childcare on my earnings so that ship has sailed. In the process of trying to set up my own business but obviously that comes with the cons of being alone and at home a lot! Im rubbish at saying I want to go out and making plans, always finding reasons not to so I must make more of an effort. I always try to drag my friends out to swimming in the evenings but they are always knackered after working/kids etc too! So I don't go! I always feel better after time to myself so that has to be a priority. Prob is there are only so many hours in the day and I get stuck with housework, business stuff, kids and DIY stuff and my hubby also needs his time to himself. We haven't the money to get a cleaner or anyone to help out but I would love to, maybe if the business proves to be a success - in about 5 years!

Life is certainly complicated with children isn't it!

[minder]

I feel exhausted just reading your posts about your 3 year old!

Things I picked up on are the changes you've had, daughter changing nursery, moving house, new baby coming along. It's also a good idea to get your daughter to help out with anything connected to baby e.g. nappy changing, pushing him on the swing, etc.

Then there are the times when she is "whacking her brother over the head with her teddy" and what do you do? Don't worry about upsetting her. You can explain to a 3 year old that this is wrong behaviour and at least remove the teddy!

Also try not to give your daughter too many choices as it confuses them.

[cornelia]

Tricky times! We're all in the same boat, pretty much, on here. I find it a struggle too - and though I've recommended it before - sometimes some new ideas can really help, so I will do so again: http://www.ahaparenting.com/

What I like about it is how often it helps me to see it from the 3-year-old's point of view. It may not make sense to us, but it does to them...

[jennyh]

Urgh I feel exhausted re-reading my post! Thank you to everyone who read it and found time to comment, blimey I don't half go on! I have been trying to exercise all of the advice you have given and have had some successes. She is back at nursery tomorrow for a couple of days so will see how this contributes and try to make some sense of whether it is causing some issues. Thanks so much for all the private messages too, really appreciate everyones advice and it is the exact reason why I love this forum so much. You never feel you are far from support!

[emza78]

I recently found this when googling Lily's out of norm behaviour as I was worried the baby was damaging her! Seems 3.5 is a pretty standard age for all types of behaviour issues, I found the falling over bit on the attached interesting too as she seems to be constantly falling over her own feet at the mo! She's actually def Improved over the last few weeks too so hopefully light at the end of the tunnel for you

http://planningwithkids.com/2009/11/17/characteristics-of-three-and-a-half-year-old-behavior/