Charter vs Private school

[northdulmum]

I too am slightly freaked out by the ever decreasing Charter catchment which we'd get into (just) this year but not sure about 6 years' time, when we'd be looking to apply.

So I've decided to look at private options (and basically start saving now!)

OTHER than the obvious (ie Dulwich College and Alleyn's) what options are there?

Alleyns (imo) is a non starter ie much brighter kids have failed already, let alone at 11yo. We may have a shot at DC but apparently it's getting harder and harder to get into. I think currently only 1 in 3 boys get passed the exam stage at 11yo...

My two are just normal state educated kids, average ability, possibly a bit sportier, not particularly musical and i'd rather not go down the extra tutoring route as I don't want them to be miserable and unhappy once there. Moreover I really want both kids at the same school.

[intexasatthe moment]

St Dunstans ? http://www.stdunstans.org.uk/

[newboots]

The new Charter school will greatly alleviate the pressure on places for the original Charter school though. They will practically share a catchment so you'll be positively spoilt for choice where you live.

[northdulmum]

Good point - and I hope that's the case. I also really want my kids to be able to walk to school and live near their friends etc.

Just been reading up on st dunstans (on mumsnet) sounds nice and laid back, which is what we'd be looking for.

Also the leaving destinations look fine (3x Oxbridge and the rest to good universities. That sounds like a good balance to me. But it's obv not 'local'.

[Mrs TP]

Your horizons widen as your children get older and hopefully you will get more comfortable with the idea of them getting the bus somewhere to school. We are all nervous when they first do it but providing you've practised and they are sensible kids then it's a different hurdle that is soon overcome. They don't go from being in reception / year 1 to jumping on a bus to secondary, there are various things along the way that help you as a parent settle into them being out and about on their own - going to the local shop / park unaccompanied / going to ED baths / Peck Cinema - these are all stressful hurdles as they come but ease you along the way to the more independence of getting to and from secondary school. For those of us on the boundary of the ever shrinking Charter catchment area, it is not the be all and end all of state schooling in the SE London area. Loads of us have been through it and surviving other fab state secondaries :)

[KatsuQueen]

Hi one of my colleagues who used to live in ED sends her son to City of London school for boys. He travels on the train on his own, although sometimes they do the morning "commute" together. It is actually quite easy to get to, especially if you are closer to Denmark hill or peckham rye station. It is the thameslink train.

[emro]

Agree with earlier post that actually if you are within charter catchment this year then probably in 6 years time you would be more likely to still be so as there would be the new charter school up and running by then

And I think this year the catchment was particularly tight as there were a lot of siblings apparently

I completely agree that I would love my kids to all be able to walk to local schools , especially as we are lucky enough to have brilliant schools locally ,

Of course lots of secondary school kids across the country do have to travel by train/bus to get to school but if that is not to your "local" secondary then others are also coming from all different directions ( particularly private schools which don't have a catchment area ) and therefore school friends can live hours away

[landsberger]

Who says children will necessarily pass the entrance exam? Private schools, in the main, are only interested in high achieving children.

Which is why they get good results, not having SEN/low achievers/E2L children to deal with.

[emro]

Yes agreed , and if you compare like with like ( with the few stats available) then the high achieving children who go to the charter rather than private schools get better academic results

[brezzo]

Emro,

Could I ask where I might be able to find that data?

Many thanks

[northdulmum]

Emro - yes I read that too. It's the 'middle of the road' kids that benefit most from private education. The very bright do well wherever they go, according to a study in the press about a year ago?

[landsberger]

Look at the Value added data on the DfE Performance tables.

[Otta]

Mrs TP Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Your horizons widen as your children get older and

> hopefully you will get more comfortable with the

> idea of them getting the bus somewhere to school.

> We are all nervous when they first do it but

> providing you've practised and they are sensible

> kids then it's a different hurdle that is soon

> overcome. They don't go from being in reception /

> year 1 to jumping on a bus to secondary, there are

> various things along the way that help you as a

> parent settle into them being out and about on

> their own - going to the local shop / park

> unaccompanied / going to ED baths / Peck Cinema -

> these are all stressful hurdles as they come but

> ease you along the way to the more independence of

> getting to and from secondary school. For those

> of us on the boundary of the ever shrinking

> Charter catchment area, it is not the be all and

> end all of state schooling in the SE London area.

> Loads of us have been through it and surviving

> other fab state secondaries :)

I agree with this (not as a parent, as my kids are still young). I had local friends from primary school ho I remained friends with, but LOVED getting the bus from ED to New Cross, and loved visiting my new friends in other areas.

[emro]

If you look at the results on the charter school website for those who are in "gifted and talented" bracket at the Charter school ( who would compare with the high achievers who would pass entrance examinations for dulwich independent schools), then that group at the charter get each year at least 8 A*/A GCSES and in 2011 everyone in that group got at least 10A*/A . Looking at the results for the independent schools I cant find a year where everyone got at least 10 A*/A .

Also the value added data is very good for the charter , but that data is not available for the independent schools so not possible to compare.

And of course the league tables do not make a useful comparison as the independent schools select by academic ability and therefore only take the high achievers in the first place. But I would suggest that if the high achievers are doing better at the charter and the value added score puts the charter in the top 4% of schools nationwide, then the 'middle of the road' kids would do better there as well .

[landsberger]

Personally, I think unless you are an incorrigable snob or social climber, private schools are a complete waste of money.

[Scruffy Mummy]

The new secondary school at the Dulwich Hospital site should help.

But one of the key reasons IMO why the current Charter site has shrunk so dramatically in the last year is that more and more people with children about to go into secondary school have been buying houses ever closer to the school. One family I know has kept their original house they in East Dulwich, rented this house out AND then bought a 2nd one really near Charter so they could be assured a place at Charter. Personally, this is one of the pitfalls of a distance only admissions policy. Yes, you can get your kids into Charter - only if you can afford to pay the premium on property. Is it more ethical or high minded to do this than sending your child to a private school - to send your kids to a local good state school through buying a 2nd home - thus denying a place to another child whose parents can't afford to buy nearer Charter??

Anyway, I agree with posters above - other secondary school are also doing very well in the area. And in six years, who knows what will happen? Harris Boys and Harris Girls are already doing extremely well in terms of results and progress but perhaps they will bow to pressure to offer some sort of Co-ed education across their two sites making them more attractive to local parents.

[newboots]

Also, do remember that siblings get a place at Charter whether they live within the supposed catchment or not.

[Pugwash]

My youngest daughter had the chance of applying for one of the last assisted places scheme at a private school but refused to allow me to apply. years later she confessed that she was afraid that she may 'fail' and that there would be too much pressure put on her by the school. She went to ordinary secondary school and then onto University

My husband had private education from 7 - 18 including a boarding school and private 'crammer'. He was classed as exceptionally bright but ended up having a breakdown at 19 partially due to the pressure from school and crammer to do well, and misplaced worry that he was wasting his parents money if he was not a high achiever.

My friend's daughter went to St. Dunstans from the age of 5 and did exceptionally well. However my friend was shocked at all the 'extras' apart from the fees and cost of uniform. All of her monthly salary went to paying for the education, she was really glad she only had one child.

[Curmudgeon]

You do realise that Charter is not the only State school. Yes it is a good school but it is also benefits from a lot of playground chatter from people who buy into the "must go to Charter" without having any direct experience or done any research at all.

No one school fits all children and that includes Charter.

And to be more honest some children will do extremely well wherever they are educated,and others will face challenges.

Spend some time visiting and getting to know all the state schools and don't just take the word of the playground as gospel.

[jimthebuilder]

I completely agree. A lot of issues with Charter at mo - lots of great staff already left or leaving- and concerns re new head

[Otta]

Scruffy Mummy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> But one of the key reasons IMO why the current

> Charter site has shrunk so dramatically in the

> last year is that more and more people with

> children about to go into secondary school have

> been buying houses ever closer to the school. One

> family I know has kept their original house they

> in East Dulwich, rented this house out AND then

> bought a 2nd one really near Charter so they could

> be assured a place at Charter. Personally, this

> is one of the pitfalls of a distance only

> admissions policy. Yes, you can get your kids

> into Charter - only if you can afford to pay the

> premium on property. Is it more ethical or high

> minded to do this than sending your child to a

> private school - to send your kids to a local

> good state school through buying a 2nd home - thus

> denying a place to another child whose parents

> can't afford to buy nearer Charter??

This makes me sick. Those people will say they're doing what's best for their child. I say they're scumbags.

Traditionally the wealthy sent their kids to private schools, these days the not wealthy enough for that but still pretty wealthy effectively buy school places through property. So bloody unfair.

[EDmummy]

What Curmudgeon said. Charter is just one of several very good state schools in the area. And, a lot can happen in 6 years! Why fret now. Enjoy your kids, help extend their knowledge and enjoy the years when your kids will actually talk to you.

[brezzo]

Emro,

this is perhaps not relevant to main thrust of this discussion, but your data is skewiff - you are comparing a select group from Charter, (their GTP group) with all of the kids from Dulwich college, these two groups are not the same. To reach any conclusions, you would have to compare like with like groups. The "average" kid at the College would not probably not get into Charter's GTP group, so comparison does not work. Charter's "value added" is good, but there is no data from private sector for purpose of comparisons

[DuncanW]

Otta - I think that's a bit harsh!

It's by no means a new thing that people move into certain locales to be in catchment areas for favoured schools. And it's certainly nothing new that parents will try and do the best they can for their offspring.

I think all admissions criteria have their flaws and for distanced-based, the mobility of the better off is the obvious one. But I wouldn't demonise parents who are playing by the rules, just because you don't like the rules. ie. don't hate the player...

[newboots]

This playing of the rules (I don't know how common it is in reality, but yes it obviously goes on) is one of the reasons why the sibling priority thing should go. A family moves to Herne Hill for a year or two to get a place for their oldest child, but then move back to wherever they came from, or out to a cheaper area like Peckham or Sydenham - but all their younger children get an automatic place. If that sibling link wasn't there then the dubious buying and renting by the very wealthy would surely become less common? Priority should be given to siblings still living within catchment only. Those of us with mixed sex children at single sex secondary schools seem to survive with our children at different schools! It really isn't that important at age 11+.