New owners want to carry out a side extension and return - has this happened to you?

[soyamocha3]

We fully expected the new owners to refurbish the kitchen and bathroom and possibly have a loft extension. It turns out that they are going to completely gut the house, have a loft extension and extend to the party wall (currently a fence) and return the extension to the rear of the property. They will like elsewhere whilst the works are carried out. Has anyone had this happen to them. We are concerned about the height of the party wall they will erect. The work is going to be so intrusive. They will be on our roof, in our garden, the fence will be down etc and we are understandably concerned.

[bobbsy]

Not really clear how this affects you - are you in a basement flat and this is above you? Or... you are the adjoning property directly behind?

[Penguin68]

They will be on our roof, in our garden, the fence will be down etc and we are understandably concerned.

Not without your permission, unless they actually own your property. They have no rights of trespass in order to undertake works. And they need to get a party wall agreement before they can start. Depending upon the scale of the work being proposed they may well need planning permission, and they will certainly need building works agreement from the council planning department before 'permitted development' can be accepted. It is possible to complain - particularly regarding loss of amenity - height of new extensions can be challenged - particularly if out of character for the area. I am assuming that you are living in the 'other half' of a semi or in a next door terrace?

[soyamocha3]

We are in a Victorian terraced house - mid terrace. When we open our kitchen door (side door) we are directly opposite their kitchen door. They want to remove the wall up to first floor level and extend out to the boundary and erect a wall where the fence is but it will be much higher.

[Jeremy]

Assume you're talking about your direct neighbours?

IMO getting the work done before they move in is sensible. If you're concerned about the height - have you discussed this with them? I understand it's common for the roof to taper downwards at the side. What stage is the planning permission at?

[red devil]

Penguin68 Wrote:

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> ...and they will certainly need building works

> agreement from the council planning department

> before 'permitted development' can be accepted.

Do you mean Building Regs approval?

[soyamocha3]

Thank for for taking the time to reply. Yes we live in a Victorian terrace house (3 bedrooms upstairs - the usual set up. We are mid terrace and they are next door. Our kitchen doors (side dooors) are opposite and we have a fence separating the properties and garden. They intend to take down the wall between in the two living rooms, completion open up the kitchen and extend on the side and rear up to the party wall (in the case of the side). We are definitely going to have to have a Party Wall Award and I am aware of the Right of Light situation. I just wondered whether anyone had been through something similar and could offer any advice.

[soyamocha3]

It is currently just with the builders but we have no experience and just want to make sure we know our rights and how to proceed with any discussion The work is going to be a nightmare for us but not much we can do about that. We are really more concerned with the height of the party wall being erected because there is only a small gap between our houses and it is going to feel very oppressive. We would like to have some control over the height of the wall - one of our main concerns. Thank you

[intexasatthe moment]

Would some or all of this work come under the party wall act ?

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/party-wall-etc-act-1996-guidance

[soyamocha3]

Yes but just the boundary wall - which would have to be built - currently there is only a fence. So they will have to dig down for foundations and footings and there is currently paving stones which will have to be dug up. We have a dpc and there are old pipes under the paving and we already had a bad flood once when Thames Water started messing around at the front of the property. These are old houses and they don't take kindly to be knocked about. I can see our property being damaged and we keep it so nice too.

[LondonMix]

Take photos of your house before the work starts. During work on terraces unfortunately even with the greatest care damage can occur. They (specifically their builders) should be insured against this. Ask to see the builders public liability insurance before hand.

If you really think the boundary wall is too high, check to see what it is versus permitted development rules. If it exceeds permitted development, they need to file a full planning application and you can object then. The planners do take loss of light seriously, though often times, because the roof is sloped, there is no discernible difference in light coming into to neighbouring gardens as there is no shadow.

Half the houses in ED have had this done. Victorian houses are more than capable of dealing with this type of work. Just make sure that they are doing everything they are supposed to.

If the work is under permitted development they should still get building regs sign off.

Good luck and hopefully your neighbours and the builders will try to minimise the disruption. Nothing you've described so far sounds out of the ordinary regarding this type of work.

[soyamocha3]

Thank you very much for this help and advice and taking your time to assist.

[ed_pete]

On positive note, it could be work discussing having the new wall built straddling the line between the two properties and built to support a similar extension on your side. That way if you should ever decide to do something similar, you'd be well on the way !

[Jeremy]

Highly unlikely to be under permitted development if they're building along the whole length of the kitchen. It will be going under full planning, and as such you'll have the opportunity to question/appeal the plans.

[soyamocha3]

Thank you ALL so much for taking the trouble to come back with your recommendation and advice. I am really really grateful. We only found out yesterday and had quite a miserable evening and restless night worrying about it all.

Thank you

[Azira]

Permitted development doesn't cover your right to an easement of light so that could be seperate grounds for objection. Not everyone appreciates the lacuna, so if it is under permitted development you want to make sure you know what they are doing before they start to give you time to do something about it if necessary (from memory, it would involve an injunction rather than action via planning, but get proper legal advice if its an issue, natch).

Definitely worth early and hopefully friendly discussions with your neighbour so you can see exactly what is involved. And try not to fear the worst - these things happen all the time without disaster.

[LondonMix]

To be frank though, unless the wall at its lowest point before the wall is truly gigantic, you are very unlikely to succeed in blocking it. Loft conversions can have a much greater impact on light depending on the direction the garden faces than side return extensions do.

[red devil]

Under PD you can extend out from any rear wall (you might have more than one if you have an outrigger) by 3m. For a few years there has been a relaxation of up to 6m, but this is subject to 'consultation' with neighbouring properties (this relaxation ends soon, so maybe your neighbours are trying to rush this through?)

Under PD you can build up to 3m in height within 2m of any boundary, beyond 2m and you can build up to 4m. With a flat roof construction, this height is to the top of the flat roof, and doesn't include a parapet upstand, which can be higher, say another 300mm. With a mono pitch roof construction it's to the highest point of the sloping roof.

Under PD your neighbours would be perfectly within their rights to build on the boundary line up to 3m + the parapet upstand if they went for a flat roof construction. It often makes sense to do this so internally it feels less like an extension with one continuous flat ceiling height.

In a side return extension scenario, this obviously could greatly impact on light levels for a neighbouring property if it also has a side return. However, as has been noted, Right to Light falls outwith PD rights and Planning Law, it comes under Civil Law. You would have to take out a private injunction and then go to the expense of proving that your loss of light exceeds what is considered reasonable. This can be a very time consuming and costly exercise.

If your neighbours are going down the route of a normal Planning Permission application, then they will have to propose a mono pitch (lean-to roof) sloping down to the boundary, with a height of around 2.3m on the boundary line in order to stand any chance of getting approval. By doing this there would be little issue with loss of light too...

[buggie]

We've just completed a side return project, but are end of terrace. Our next door neighbours were very supportive and lovely regarding the work, good lines of communication already existed. However, we had to spend a considerable amount on a party wall survey for the party wall we built out to which runs along the bottom of the garden of a house on the row perpendicular to us. We also agreed to make right any paving/damage done to the bottom of the garden during the build.

We had to apply for planning permission, but are over in Nunhead ?slightly bigger footprint than ED house we couldn't do it under PD.

It was during the planning permission consultation that this neighbour raised all the concerns and we had to agree to the surveyor to be able to do the project (the neighbour then disputed the award the surveyor he chose - all very confusing but thankfully completed now!).

Would suggest opening friendly lines of communication with your neighbours/being welcome to attempts from them would be most important in co-operative and considerate working.

[soyamocha3]

Thank you very much for your advice.

[Sue]

Having had a bad experience (through no fault of my neighbours) I would advise you to take some trouble to find a good and fully independent party wall surveyor.

If you need one in this case, not sure.

[soyamocha3]

Thank you Sue - I am certainly getting that message and am currently looking for one. Thank you.

[red devil]

Soyamocha, your neighbour is responsible for submitting a Party Wall Notice(s) before any works commence, in order to get a Party Wall Award agreed by all parties.

When you receive the Notice they will nominate a joint surveyor to carry out the Award. You can decide whether or not you wish to use their moninated surveyor, or you can get your own independent surveyor. Either case, your neighbour is responsible for the costs of whichever surveyor you use, so don't spend any money on a surveyor just yet...

ETA typo

[Sue]

red devil Wrote:

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You can

> decide whether or not you wish to use their

> moninated surveyor, or you can get your own

> independent surveyor.

I really strongly advise you to find your own surveyor who has no connection at all and never has had with the building firm concerned.

But it's a good idea to start looking now, as the reason I used a nominated surveyor was lack of time by the time the Party Wall notice was submitted, as I was really busy.

As red devil says, you should not have to pay any costs relating to the surveyor.

[soyamocha3]

Red Devil

Thank you very much. I do have the name of someone in mind and in fact have given them a call (waiting for them to call back) just to find out how to proceed once we have received formal notification. Thank you for much for all your advice. To say it has been helpful is an understatement. Thank you so very much indeed.