lobby to allow motorbikes in bus lane on Dog Kennel Hill

[macutd]

Having received a PCN for the bus lane (which was rescinded) I would like to lobby to allow motorbikes into that bus lane on Dog Kennel Hill .

I have included my letter to Southwark below and wondered if there was anybody who felt the same.

Dear Southwark Council

I recently wrote to you to appeal a Bus Lane PCN on grounds of mitigating circumstances. Details below.

______________________________________________________________________________________

Dear Southwark parking

I am writing to appeal my bus lane penalty under mitigating circumstances.

I have a 14-year-old 50cc scooter and can barely get up to 20 mph while traveling up Dog Kennel Hill.

When travelling up the hill in the car lane, cars pass dangerously close to me.

Or I can block the traffic and have cars clambering to get passed (sometimes honking to get passed)

As you can see by your photo I have gained no advantage by moving out of the car lane and have only done so because of the above reasons.

I have over 40 years riding experience and hoped to have made a judgement on safety and not to try to use the bus lane unlawfully.

I hope that on this occasion you will be able to weaver this PNC

_________________________________________________________________________________________

Well I am now writing to you to ask if you would consider including Motorcycles in the bus lane users on grounds of safety.

Without having the ability to seek respite in the bus lane I will be left on this road, which is dangerous to small lightweight motorcycles.

There is a unique situation on the hill, which not only has an extreme gradient but a walled flowerbed that stops cars from moving over to overtake and means that they are forced to squeeze past. (Which they often do)

The road is dangerous especially, maintaining stability without cars rushing past and potentially unbalancing you.

The council must accept responsibility for this dangerous situation.

By allowing motorbikes into the bus lane you will solve this potentially fatal situation without making any difference to the flow of traffic in the bus lane.

Yours Hopefully

[kford]

I'm with you. TfL allow bikes in almost all their bus lanes, as it was proven to safer. DKH is a prime candidate for this, along with Walworth Road.

[wulfhound]

As a cyclist I'm fine with sharing bus lanes with mopeds / motorcycles, as I'm aware they're just as vulnerable.

On one condition - which is that they comply with the posted 20mph speed limit. Close overtakes at 40+mph are extremely unpleasant, particularly by bikes which have had their silencers removed or defeated.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Yeah, I'm with you on that.

[DulwichFox]

I'm all for Motorcycles using bus lanes.. Having been a Motorcyclist many moons ago.

What concerns me is the new Bus Lane cameras which will mean cars crossing over at the last minute / seconds

when turning left to go to Sainsbury's. This will make it more dangerous for motor cyclists and cyclist alike.

The cameras are likely to generate many fines and much revenue and we cannot expect Southwark Council to put

the safety of all types of cyclists before such profits.

Lets hope some compromise can be made here..

DulwichFox

[rendelharris]

I agree motorbikes should be allowed in the bus lane, but that leaves the problem of motorists diving across the bus lane to get into Sainsbury's. Is it too simplistic a solution to say stick the bus lane on the right hand side (there are no bus stops on that side between East Dulwich Station and the crest of the hill) so car traffic could either go straight on or turn into Sainsbury's from the left lane, and higher up turn into Champion Hill? Just thinking aloud and sure there are objections, but on the face of it it would appear to be a workable solution.

[rupert james]

Why not push the cross over lines further back on the road as any traffic will be filtering left.

Or is that too easy and will not produce any revenue

[Blah Blah]

That would be the sensible option Rupert. But sense is often missing when an oppportunity to fine motorists offers itself instead.

[slarti b]

rendelharris Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Is it too simplistic a solution to say stick the bus lane on the right hand side (there are no bus stops on that side

> between East Dulwich Station and the crest of the hill)

Interesting idea and may work for buses but I don't think it would work for cyclists unless you could get a mandatory cycle lane on left side of road.

[DulwichFox]

Perhaps James Barber could look into this... ?

Have PM'd James..

DulwichFox

[spider69]

Look into what suggestion?

[kford]

Bikes in bus lanes, I hope!

[DulwichFox]

Look into the problem of cars crossing over to the inside lane at the last min/sec when turning left for Sainsbury's

in order to comply with new traffic inforcement cameras.

The cameras will create a dangerous situation there.. There is already a dangerous situation there for those who

stay in lane then suddenly switch when bus lane markings end.

100's if not 1,000's use that stretch and turn into Sainsbury's

The Bus lane markings need to end further back.

DulwichFox

[diddly28]

They should just scrap then entirely. All they do is delay traffic and have it stood around needlessly and increasing journey times. There must be some data on impact on air quality that is unpleasant for TFL and Southwark Council

[James Barber]

Adding motorbikes to slow moving cycles going up hill along with buses doesn't sound a smart mix.

DulwichFox Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Perhaps James Barber could look into this... ?

>

> Have PM'd James..

>

> DulwichFox

[DulwichFox]

James Barber Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Adding motorbikes to slow moving cycles going up

> hill along with buses doesn't sound a smart mix.

>

> DulwichFox Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Perhaps James Barber could look into this... ?

> >

> > Have PM'd James..

> >

> > DulwichFox

James..

My concern was the cameras that enforce an already dangerous situation where vehicles bound for Sainsburys

are changing lanes at the last min. Cars are forced to stay in lane and queues are long while the inside lane is empty.

This can result in waiting 2 light changes and resulting in higher pollution levels.

DulwichFox.

[rendelharris]

James Barber Wrote:

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> Adding motorbikes to slow moving cycles going up

> hill along with buses doesn't sound a smart mix.

As a cyclist and former motorcyclist I wouldn't have a problem with this James, we already share most bus lanes with motorcyclists in London, including on some hills - on the south circular running up to Forest Hill, for example. I don't know how other cyclists feel about it but in general (there is always the odd exception of course) I find that motorcyclists, knowing they will suffer almost as much as a cyclist in a collision, are careful and courteous around cyclists.

[James Barber]

Hi rendelharris,

I find myself often buzzed by motorbikes hen they're allowed in bus lanes.

When I chaired Southwark Cyclists clear mandate from the active membership that they were against sharing. The reports I read suggested greater crash rates between both types of two wheels when they share bus lanes.

[rendelharris]

James Barber Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Hi rendelharris,

> I find myself often buzzed by motorbikes hen

> they're allowed in bus lanes.

> When I chaired Southwark Cyclists clear mandate

> from the active membership that they were against

> sharing. The reports I read suggested greater

> crash rates between both types of two wheels when

> they share bus lanes.

I can only say that's not my experience James, I think there's a problem that because cyclists are in a bus lane they feel they are being passed too close by a motorcyclist who's maybe three feet away, when on non buslane roads they're accustomed to being passed much closer without even noticing it. I have no axe to grind - I doubt I'll ever buy another motorcycle - but they don't bother me. Interesting report from TfL in 2008 when they were considering opening up bus lanes:

"The evidence from casualty and collision data shows that cyclists' concerns that their casualty rates would rise, and use of their mode would decline, were unfounded in practice... the safety records for cyclists significantly improved where the measure was deployed. Results also show that cycling rose on trial sites - despite the presence of P2W riders in bus lanes and a significantly above-average rise in P2W use of trial routes. The report concludes from the evidence that conditions for cyclists did not significantly deteriorate....The sum of casualty evidence shows that fears of significant rises in pedestrian injuries during the three-year trial were not well founded, with the overall figures demonstrating a significant net safety benefit to pedestrians when considering the collision rates."

(P2W = powered two wheelers)

I know it might seem counter-intuitive, but it seems that cyclists are less likely to be surprised by motorcyclists sharing the bus lane than by them weaving in and out of traffic. A thought which has just occurred (and this would be one for the wider environment) - why not just put a dotted line down the middle of bus lanes, cyclists to the left, motorcyclists to the right?

[kford]

When I cycle in a bus lane, it's the taxis and buses that scare me, squeezing past impatiently. When I take the motorbike, I behave like pretty much all fellow motorcyclists, courteously keeping to the right of the lane. Remember, we're vulnerable road users too.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Electric skateboards?

[wulfhound]

"why not just put a dotted line down the middle of bus lanes, cyclists to the left, motorcyclists to the right?"

Because hugging the gutter isn't something you want to encourage cyclists to do, most of the time. If I'm doing 15-20mph in a 20, I'll be in the centre or towards the outside of the bus lane - less swerving to overtake stopped buses; two possible directions to avoid potholes, drain covers etc. Uphill at low speed is a different story of course, as are busy 30mph bus lanes.

[rendelharris]

wulfhound Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "why not just put a dotted line down the middle of

> bus lanes, cyclists to the left, motorcyclists to

> the right?"

>

> Because hugging the gutter isn't something you

> want to encourage cyclists to do, most of the

> time. If I'm doing 15-20mph in a 20, I'll be in

> the centre or towards the outside of the bus lane

> - less swerving to overtake stopped buses; two

> possible directions to avoid potholes, drain

> covers etc. Uphill at low speed is a different

> story of course, as are busy 30mph bus lanes.

I see your point but I think, even at high speed, half of an eight foot bus lane gives me enough space for safety and certainly doesn't force me to hug the gutter.

ETA the lines could just be for guidance rather than compulsory...just an idea, anyway.

[macutd]

Hi James

If you see my original post. It is me who has trouble getting up to 20 mph going up that hill on my old 50cc scooter.

It is me faced with a choise of being overtaken by cars that brush past me or to hold up the traffic.

I too would like a safe journey up that hill!!

[Penguin68]

The problem with the stretch that runs up to Sainsbury's is that the dotted line starts far too late. If the inside lane was 'buses and left turn only' (and very clearly marked as such) - as it is in the stretch of Lordship Lane which runs up to the Barry Road left turn - people (buses, cars etc.) would be in the correct lane for their allowed manoeuvre. Then photograph and fine any (non bus) vehicle which is in the left hand lane and doesn't turn left. As it is, the very short stretch of dotted line looks like a revenue generation road marking, rather than one concerned with traffic direction and through flow. This way you also avoid late turns by cars which may put cyclists in jeopardy.