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messageRe: Camberwell Grove bridge closed for at least 6 months
Posted by Jeremy 05 December, 2016 18:11

SpringTime Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> what's really crazy is not being able to turn
> right coming from Camberwell New Road up Denmark
> Hill - you then have to pass Grove Lane and turn
> right up Camberwell Grove to get south, unless you
> can go further over to Peckham or do a U-ey and go
> back up Denmark Hill...

You're supposed to hang a left onto Medlar Street before you reach the junction. But yes, it's all a bit of a mess.

messageRe: Camberwell Grove bridge closed for at least 6 months
Posted by wulfhound 05 December, 2016 18:37

@SpringTime yes, that is daft - preventing turns between one main A-road and another increases pressure on side roads which aren't built for it.

messageRe: Camberwell Grove bridge closed for at least 6 monthsattachment
Posted by edhistory 06 December, 2016 06:19

mikeb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Camberwell Grove is a straight through-road, more
> so than Grove Lane or Champion Park. In maps of
> the 19th and early 20th centuries, Champion Grove
> looks like a much more major thoroughfare than
> Grove Lane. Even Champion Hill looks bigger.

Mike,

The Bennost Map of 1758, despite its inaccuracies, clarifies the natural route through East Dulwich.

John K

Attachments: Bennost_1758.jpeg (494.1KB)  
messageRe: Camberwell Grove bridge closed for at least 6 months
Posted by mikeb 06 December, 2016 15:35

Thanks John, I'd not seen that before. nice interactive version available here: [www.bl.uk]

So Camberwell Grove could possibly be considered to be the first by-pass in the area? Purpose built road, straight, modern bridge over the railway ...

messageRe: Camberwell Grove bridge closed for at least 6 months
Posted by DulwichLondoner April 08, 08:11AM

mikeb Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm intrigued as to what constitutes as "rat run".
> Is it simply traffic travelling on roads where
> people don't want it?

Very well said! One could argue that, I don't know, Tintagel Crescent, where the entrance to Goose Green Primary is, is not a main road because it is a short, narrow crescent, but Camberwell Grove, however unsuitable for heavy vehicles, is a straight 0.6-mile stretch of road which, once/if they fix the bridge, would be perfectly suitable for car traffic.

Also, why are motorcycles not allowed? Methinks it's because residents don't want to be bothered by the noise. I struggle to think it's about safety, because scooters and motorcycles can weigh roughly from 100 to 300 Kg, meaning that a motorcyclist on a motorcycle can weigh like 2 to 4 average adults. If the bridge is safe for 4 adult pedestrians to cross, surely it is safe for a motorcyclist weighing the same? Or am I missing something?


James Barber Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WOuldn't it be fab if
> that traffic didn't use such residential roads as
> cut -throughs/rat-runs but stuck to the actual
> main roads. And indeed vice versa when Southwark
> residents drive across other boroughs.

As above! Who makes this determination? The Not-In-My-Backyard mob who don't want to be troubled by plebs going through their beloved road? If you simply look at a map, Camberwell grove stands out as a rather obvious North-South artery.

We have to be very careful with direct democracy because the interests of the NIMBY mob are often radically different from those of the wider community.
About 18 months ago Lambeth council closed a number of roads around Calais street, because residents didn't want their precious roads used by ordinary mortals, but luckily the backlash was so intense they had to cancel the whole scheme. If you approach Calais street from Denmark road you still see a red sign that Calais street is closed to traffic, which is luckily no longer true. Yet the sign is still there. Mmm...

messageRe: Camberwell Grove bridge closed for at least 6 months
Posted by rahrahrah May 03, 09:05AM

Some rather 'long term' looking concrete blocks have joined the flower beds outside Denmark Hill station. Are these bridges going to be opened any time soon? How is it that they can just be allowed to fall in to disrepair and disuse without any accountability?

messageRe: Camberwell Grove bridge closed for at least 6 months
Posted by bels123 June 19, 03:25PM

Does anyone have an update (or know where we would get one) as to when the bridge will open?

Thanks

messageRe: Camberwell Grove bridge closed for at least 6 months
Posted by sally buying June 19, 04:50PM

bels123 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does anyone have an update (or know where we would
> get one) as to when the bridge will open?
>
> Thanks

With regard to be above a resident friend of mine had this reply back from Southwark when he asked the same question of Southwark

Do not hold your breath

"Thank you for your e-mail query. Please accept our apologies for sending you a belated response.

At present, our term consultant is carrying out the detailed design of the required strengthening measures to be implemented to the bridge. The design works are planned to be completed by mid-April, 2017.

Following completion of the detailed design, London Borough of Southwark (LBS) will obtain construction costs from our term contractor. Based on the contractor’s work methodology, LBS will discuss with Network Rail to arrange rail possessions and identify the associated cost. After identifying the overall cost of the works, LBS will submit a bid for the required funding from LoBEG (London Bridges Engineering Group). LoBEG is an advisory body, who prioritise Transport for London funding for assessment/strengthening/replacement of concerned bridges in the 33 London Boroughs. For information, the funding required to complete the structural load assessment of Camberwell Grove bridge was provided by LoBEG.

Please note that arranging rail possessions with Network Rail is a lengthy process that takes significant time. For instance, LBS awaited over 1.5 years to get the required rail possessions from Network Rail to complete the initial inspection of the bridge to aid the structural load assessment. In addition, if LBS are not successful in the bid for funding from LoBEG, alternative resources will need to be looked at which may take more time.

Therefore, in summary, LBS are not in a position to tell an exact date for implementing strengthening works on site or re-opening of the bridge. However, LBS assure the public that it make every effort to reopen the bridge sooner than later.

I trust that the above answers your query. If you need further information/clarification please do not hesitate to contact me."

Regards
Aravind

Thiagarajah Aravind
Interim Manager – Structures
Highway Maintenance Team
Highways Division
Environment & Leisure
London Borough of Southwark
Hub 2, Third Floor
160 Tooley Street
London
SE1 2QH

messageRe: Camberwell Grove bridge closed for at least 6 months
Posted by Abe_froeman June 20, 12:09PM

Shocking

messageRe: Camberwell Grove bridge closed for at least 6 months
Posted by sally buying June 29, 02:55PM

[www.2.southwark.gov.uk]

This is the news page for the Bridge.

Interesting reading

messageRe: Camberwell Grove bridge closed for at least 6 months
Posted by edcam June 30, 02:28PM

For all the good it will do, I've emailed Southwark on the address within the link sally buying posted above. The ongoing closure of the bridge has turned the adjacent roads into a nightmare at times. They have to reopen it to cars (but keep the restriction on HGVs.

messageRe: Camberwell Grove bridge closed for at least 6 months
Posted by rendelharris June 30, 02:39PM

edcam Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For all the good it will do, I've emailed
> Southwark on the address within the link sally
> buying posted above. The ongoing closure of the
> bridge has turned the adjacent roads into a
> nightmare at times. They have to reopen it to
> cars (but keep the restriction on HGVs.

How can they reopen it to cars when the report linked to above says "This assessment work was carried out in summer last year. It was of a much more stringent nature based on the latest national standards and resulted in a determination that the bridge could not sustain any sort of motor vehicle loading."

Not having a go, but if it's been determined to be unsafe for any motor vehicles and needs a £1M repair, how can it be reopened until that's done?

messageRe: Camberwell Grove bridge closed for at least 6 months
Posted by bargee99 June 30, 03:05PM

The £1m is the cost to make it safe for large vehicles. For cars from the council website "the cost to the Council for this option is approximately £17,000 plus the costs for any works above the bridge to ensure the 3.0 tonne limit is not exceeded (such 'above' works would be required for either maintaining the status quo permanently or to manage a 3.0 tonne limit. The costs to strengthen the bridge to 7.5 tonnes or more is in excess of £1m."
I make that 4 or 5 bike hangers :-)

messageRe: Camberwell Grove bridge closed for at least 6 months
Posted by rendelharris June 30, 03:16PM

Ah seen. Thanks.

messageRe: Camberwell Grove bridge closed for at least 6 months
Posted by edcam June 30, 03:20PM

And of course they can't open it until it's repaired but £17k is nothing.

messageRe: Camberwell Grove bridge closed for at least 6 months
Posted by edhistory June 30, 03:29PM

> And of course they can't open it until it's repaired but £17k is nothing.

Several cycle hangars.

messageRe: Camberwell Grove bridge closed for at least 6 months
Posted by edcam June 30, 04:21PM

AAAARRRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!

edhistory Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > And of course they can't open it until it's
> repaired but £17k is nothing.
>
> Several cycle hangars.

messageRe: Camberwell Grove bridge closed for at least 6 months
Posted by ollieloudon July 19, 02:44PM

Now some of the residents are holding a street party on the road on sunday august 6th 2pm to 5pm to try and get other residents to sign a petition. CG residents never cease to amaze me . Might turn up and argue my side and bring my own petition



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was july 19, 02:45pm by ollieloudon.

messageRe: Camberwell Grove bridge closed for at least 6 months
Posted by Mel.P July 20, 03:31PM

Please see attached link below as to the current position. I'd urge you to forward to all your contacts and get them to write in as individuals and not one e mail per Familiy to Southwark on the address attached - highways@southwark.gov.uk and come to the consultation in September. The surrounding streets can't cope and it wont be long before theres one Mexican Stand off too many...

[www.2.southwark.gov.uk]

messageRe: Camberwell Grove bridge meeting 20 September
Posted by stkilda July 24, 04:33PM

Many residents on Lyndhurst Grove and the surrounding streets are very concerned about the levels of traffic and pollution on the road, caused by the diversion of traffic from Camberwell Grove, because of the closed railway bridge. We have been petitioning for the bridge to be opened - but the people on Camberwell Grove are campaigning for it to remain closed. A number of us have been in conversation with Southwark Council, and we have said that the increased traffic on Lyndhurst Grove is extremely dangerous for parents taking their children to school, and most days there is a stand off, and huge arguments as due to all the parked cars the road doesn't allow for two-way traffic. It's also affecting the wider area of Bellenden Road and adjacent streets as all the traffic is funnelled down one route.

There is a meeting on September 20 to get local people’s thoughts and we want to spread the word. A high attendance is needed at the meeting to prevent the bridge being closed for ever. All the information is here.

[www.2.southwark.gov.uk]

messageRe: Camberwell Grove bridge meeting 20 September
Posted by sally buying July 24, 04:55PM

What the precious residents of Camberwell Grove should remember is that the road was a major road long before they pitched up.

This road did not appear overnight and all those purchasing properties in this road would have known this before they bought.

It is all about them and increasing the value of their properties, no more nor less.

This closing nonsense was thrown out at the last meeting when the neighbourhood turned out is force because they knew of the meeting.

Apart from this post I have not seen any official notification about the 20th September meeting. Why? Like most things with Southwark you have to be in the know and the fewer the better who know it can be passed on the quiet.

messageRe: Camberwell Grove bridge closed for at least 6 months
Posted by DulwichLondoner July 24, 04:59PM

Typical NIMBY attitude. The same attitude of those people who opposed railways in the Victoria era. Noisy ambulances drive near my property towards the Kings College Hospital. How dare they? Maybe I should campaign against them...

messageRe: Camberwell Grove bridge closed for at least 6 months
Posted by almost peckham July 24, 07:41PM

Avondale Rise has definitely been busier since the bridge was shut. It can get a bit fractious sometimes if the P13 is squeezing its way up or down. The crossroads with Copleston can get a dangerous for pedestrians in the rush hours. I guess this is one of the 'longer' diversions to avoid Camberwell Grove entirely as a roughly north-south route. It really does need to be re-opened; streets are neither the property of, nor the private indulgence of, those who choose to live on them.
What about one of those temporary bridge decks that would sit over the existing road? One of those kind of military things?

messageRe: Camberwell Grove bridge meeting 20 September
Posted by tracymcdavis July 25, 05:11PM

Where/what time is the meeting on September 20th? - I don't see details on the links on previous messages.

I also live on Lyndhurst Grove, right where the road narrows to one lane, and the increase in traffic has been absolutely terrible - I have seen two arguments that have almost come to blows - and get horns beeping outside constantly. With the primary school just one block down - that has to be the main concern for everyone surely.

messageRe: Camberwell Grove bridge closed for at least 6 months
Posted by wulfhound July 26, 05:45PM

Personal view - the solution for Lyndhurst Grove is to intervene there as well - traffic calming and/or banned turns. Through traffic belongs on "A" and "B" roads, which are properly engineered for it. Residential streets are for.. well, clue's in the name.

messageRe: Camberwell Grove bridge closed for at least 6 months
Posted by first mate July 26, 06:06PM

Has Southwark Council anything to gain by failing to get the bridge opened? Seems a great way to put pressure on surrounding areas, perhaps with a view to limiting parking etc...? As others have noted, 17k is not so much- 3 bike hangars- perhaps it suits council officers to keep the bridge closed.

messageRe: Camberwell Grove bridge closed for at least 6 months
Posted by DulwichLondoner July 26, 06:18PM

This seems like saying that taxes are what people richer than us should pay, with the threshold defining "rich" moving in line with our earnings! Lyndhurst grove, which then changes name to McNeil road, is a half-mile relatively straight stretch of road. Why ban it? Because it's not an A road? But wouldn't banning most traffic from non-A and non-B roads cause even more congestion? Btw, NIMBYs will be affected too, because they might see less congestion in their own road, but worse congestion down the road means more pollution - even for them.

Also, the structure of roads in London is extremely irregular, certainly very different from the orthogonal structure of other European cities. Closing a single road may mean long detours, which, again, mean more congestion and pollution, even for those who don't use a car. And, before anyone accuses me of being an evil motorist, let me say I do not own a car, and that I started commuting by motorcycle when the Southern Rail fiasco made my commute by train impossible.

The dispute between the residents of Camberwell grove and those of Lyndhurst Grove seems a dispute between two sets of NIMBYs: no one wants traffic on their road, but there is no consideration whatsoever for what might be best for the city as a whole, nor why...

messageRe: Camberwell Grove bridge closed for at least 6 months
Posted by jimlad48 July 26, 06:53PM

If it helps on Lyndhurst Grove, the new CPZ has been approved and will be coming into force in September, which should massively reduce the amount of traffic on the roads around there.

messageRe: Camberwell Grove bridge closed for at least 6 months
Posted by spider69 July 26, 07:03PM

"The dispute between the residents of Camberwell grove and those of Lyndhurst Grove seems a dispute between two sets of NIMBYs: no one wants traffic on their road, but there is no consideration whatsoever for what might be best for the city as a whole, nor why..."

I do not think it is a case of being a NIMBY, apart from the Grove residents as most other people just want the bridge to open to get traffic flows back to how it was before this recent closure.

Until the bridge closed there was not a problem regarding traffic flows in all the surrounding areas.

Bridge open..no problems, bridge closed.. massive problems.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was july 26, 07:04pm by spider69.

messageRe: Camberwell Grove bridge closed for at least 6 months
Posted by DulwichLondoner July 26, 07:58PM

The Camberwell Grove residents beg to differ, though!

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