Moving Boundaries

[Kittensbar]

Hi, Admin here

Unfortunately this post touches the boundaries of legal issues which are outside the capabilities of the forum to handle i.e. if we get sued for something said by a post on the forum we can't go there. Obviously we can't say what is wrong or right when it comes to the detail of the post, all we can say is that it is for someone else in a judicial capacity to decide, not me.

So I've taken this post down and hopefully it can be resolved off the forum.

[Jules-and-Boo]

Are you sure the action is not direct with your neighbours?

[Kittensbar]

I appreciate that my neighbour would have agreed to the work and paid for it but the design, measurements, construction and project management was all done by Plus Rooms. My neighbour is completely complicit in the goings on and has been trying to steal some of our rear garden since May - hence why we have been unable to go away. We went away for two nights this weekend and during this time our neighbour pushed a fence back further on to our garden. We called the police

[lucky]

I have pm you

[Kittensbar]

I would also add that there is a property in Upland Road where the adjoining owners have gone to the Council to say that the extension Plus Rooms are building is coming across their boundary. The Council have come back and said that is a civil matter and given the go ahead for the encroaching extension, leaving the adjoining owner with not only the disruption of the work but having to take legal action/civil action.

[first mate]

Do you have clear, photographic evidence of original boundary in relation to your home and that of your neighbours. If so, take this and the deeds to your home which will also show the original boundary, to a solicitor and to the Land Registry.In addition, if you have kept emails re discussions on boundary measurement, you may have evidence of a reasonable agreement being broken. Might also be worth talking to a Party Wall surveyor.

[intexasatthe moment]

kittensbar sympathies that you find yourself in this horrible position .

As you know boundary issues don't fall within the planning dept's remit .Though IIRC people applying for PP do have to tick a box to say that they own the land on which the proposal is based .Though I think many extensions fall within permitted dev and don't need PP.

The Land Registry won't take sides re boundaries ,though you can go through a process to get the boundary determined .Many deeds don't have clear info re boundaries .

Could you have CCTV to deter land grab while you're away ?

Failing that I think your best and cheapest option is to fight like with like ,pushing back any fences that have recently been moved .Though obviously that wont help where a building has been put up .

when you say two thirds of the wall on your property do you meam 2/3rds of the length of the wall ? Or 2/3rds of the depth/width of the wall ?

[Kittensbar]

2/3rd in length - the extension was supported to be built square off the back wall. This is what we were told, as were Southwark in the plans, the two surveyors acting for both parties and even the plan attached to the Party Wall Award. Whilst we were away and knowing we had not agreed to the measurements, they also rotated the extension. The idea is to change the boundary and keep the crooked line going on in to the rear garden. He has been waiting 7 months for us to go on holiday to complete the garden. If I sound mad

1. The bat that was there disappeared whilst we were on holiday in October 2016 and would have delayed their work.

2. In November 2016 whilst in New York, they went on our roof which they were not supposed to do for the loft extension.

3. In March 2017 whilst in Mexico they put up the wall (as detailed above)\

4. When the owner thought we were both out one Saturday he put up a panel on our property trespassing as he did

5. This weekend when we were away he struck again, this time pushing back the fence that is his further on to our property.

He now has 3 CCTV cameras up audio and visually recording us and they have been up since May 2017.

His next move will be to dig up the rear garden and built a wall continuing from his extension and going right across our property. He will do this whilst we are away using the same firm that happily built across our boundary for the extension.

We have our deeds showing a rectangle garden - in fact we all have rectangle gardens along here. All the other extensions are straight down the middle of both properties - this is the only one where there has been a land grab and the only one whose garden has sat waiting to be finished for 8 months because he has been waiting for us to go on holiday.

Anyone who wishes to visit and see the goings on are very very welcome.

[Kittensbar]

Thank you. Yes we have photographs and we have our Deeds. Deeds to not show the exact measurements. It is quite clear just from looking at the extension that it is crooked and coming across the boundary. As I mentioned in another question here - they rotated the extension whilst building it and whilst we were away to bring it across the boundary - the idea being to continue the crooked line in to the back garden. Yes I have all of this correspondence. A surveyor specialising in boundaries is required and my surveyor contacted Plus Rooms and their response was "we have done nothing wrong - we were acting under the instructions of the owners"

[IlonaM]

What a frustrating and stressful situation to be in.

Have you taken legal advice regarding the behaviour of your neighbour - harassment, land grab etc.? I would suggest a solicitor's letter to cease and desist.

Have you got free legal advice included with house/contents insurance? If so you could have an initial chat to see what they suggest. Otherwise I suggest getting legal advice quickly before he takes any further steps to encroach on your property. Also to get him to move the cctv so that he is not filming you.

The Law Society can point you in the direction of a lawyer via the online Find a solicitor tool or by telephone: http://solicitors.lawsociety.org.uk/

Re: photographs of the property boundaries and work undertaken - google maps has a satellite tool which gives overhead photographs of addresses. You might find a helpful picture there.

[walkman85]

Sorry to hear this, your neighbour sounds like a nightmare. As you say, many properties have rectangle gardens so it must be quite clear if they have encroached on your land. Approximately what area of your garden do you think they have built on? Do you have any photos of their extension you can share?

[Zebedee Tring]

I stand to be corrected but surely Southwark can't shuffle off all responsibility. They presumably granted permission for the development to be carried out in accordance with approved plans. If the development deviates in any way from the approved plans then it is potentially an enforcement matter for the Council, regardless of whether or not the development has breached the neighbouring boundaries.

[Man@20]

Felt compelled to contribute so had to register. My first contribution! Eek.

Recommend contacting RICS who offer a neighbour dispute service. Aside from professional independent advice there is staged escalation of activity that may assist and which you could explore. I think you will want to be clear what 'resolution' means to you. Litigation will involve the contribution and cost of an expert at some point so you may as well get a handle on that now.

Also, if the construction is not in accordance with the planning drawings, more than likely it is not in accordance with the Approval and I would think there is recourse through the Planning Department of Southwark. It should be sufficient to notify the LA that the development is not in accordance with their permission. The website has a link entitled 'Report a Breach of Planning Control'.

If this is the fault of the Contractor, ask your neighbour (tongue in cheek) if they want to do the litigation bit since since it is likely they will suffer damages through rectification costs.

http://www.rics.org/uk/join/member-accreditations-list/dispute-resolution-service/drs-products/neighbour-disputes-service/

https://www.southwark.gov.uk/planning-and-building-control

[KidKruger]

If I was cock-sure that someone else was building on my property, I'd just demolish it.

You can't be prosecuted for knocking-down trespassing buildings.

If they are on your land.

[Dulwichwanderer]

Plusrooms completed a side and back kitchen extension for us and we were extremely happy with the project planning, coordination and execution of the build.

In particular, we found them to be extremely careful, even pedantic, about the boundary lines and 3 meter projection that we built. If there are instances where the line of the build looks opportunistic, this is likely to be at the demand of the client.

I see little motivation for Plusrooms to build beyond what is permitted, with the potential admin and reputational damage that may follow.

Living through your own / a neighbours build can be very emotive and this neighbour sounds like an absolute nightmare, but I'd personally be careful what I blogged online as dealing with a libel counter is probably not going to help matters.

[intexasatthe moment]

While Southwark planning can't get involved in boundary issues I feel sure they would be interested in a rotation of plans ,even for a permitted development .

What does their enforcement dept say ? https://www.southwark.gov.uk/planning-and-building-control/planning-enforcement

"Having perused Southwark's Planning Website, it would appear we are not the only ones this has happened to" - just interested in this ,how can you tell by looking at planning pages ?

[Kittensbar]

We know we are not the only ones it has happened to because we have spoken to two other people. If you go through the Planning Applications you look at the public comments from neighbours but that is only the tip of the iceberg - for instance we never commented because we were given plans showing a straight extension.

We had William Doherty from Planning round and although he sympathised he said that we were in a stronger position to deal with the matter and it would need to be dealt with via Civil action.

Plus Rooms know this and that is why they go ahead and do this time and time again.

[IzzyBiz]

We've had a great experience with Plus Rooms so I'm with Dulwichwanderer above - they were extremely thorough on planning and boundary issues and involved party wall consultants for both us and our 2 neighbours. I assume you and your neighbour also had party wall advice through the same channels.

I would suggest you are careful that your claims are correct; Plus Rooms wouldn't build beyond their brief...I just can't see that it would be in their interest to do so.

[Kittensbar]

Funny enough they have accused us of harassment because after 1,500 hours of building work over 7 months non stop with every clause the Party Wall Award broken by both the owners and Plus Rooms and our home, garden and plants covered in debris, loud music from the site, their contractors parking in my disabled bay, scaffolding put up over our heads without notice, I finally shouted at the owners from my garden and they recorded this and called the police.

It has become quite evident that they want us to be arrested for harassment which is why we do absolutely nothing now and you would be surprised when you sit back and watch them trying to get you to react and push buttons. . Even with 3 security cameras looking at us 24/7 and with audio on since May last year - even listening to us in our back garden -we do not react.

Our friends think they want us to harass them in order to get us out of the house so they can complete the theft of the rear garden and it is becoming more evident this is the case. Quite frankly we have more important issues to deal with - this person needs to get his extension off our property as we currently have a dispute in progress.

[Kittensbar]

Can I come back to you with pictures please

[Kittensbar]

You would think so wouldn't you but this really is not the case. There is one going through right now at Upland Road courtesy of Plus Rooms where they are building across the boundary and the owner who is affected contacted Southwark and was told that it was a civil matter and Southwark granted permission to go ahead.

I could not believe it either and in fact that is the very reason I have approached The Evening Standard because until it happens to you, you are unaware of how powerless you are to put things right.

[Kittensbar]

I would love to knock it down but the law here is a very grey area

[Kittensbar]

We have an email from Alex Halifax advising that as we were querying the measurements they would remeasure before building the wall. They built it whilst we were out of the country and never consulted us. They also rotated the extension and although they could clearly see they were crossing the boundary, they continued to build the wall.

They are well aware of what they have done. At no point have they come back to resolve it. We are here if they want to. We are not the only ones they have done this to.

Alex Halifax is not qualified to measure boundaries. Up until four years ago he was working in the marketing department for Renault cars. They measured using an old measuring tape - I have a similar one for knitting. The whole measurement taking was just as a matter of course. They already had the measurements they were working to as the plans had been drawn up.

[Kittensbar]

I agree - they have a lot of work so why do this? The reason is that there is a lot of competition and if they can offer something extra to greedy owners - such as ours - they will do this. They event took time to taper out the tiles the side of the roof to make it look as though it should come across. This was a totally false aspect as all the back walls in our street are straight.

I am getting no joy out of taking time to make this post. Yes the work is a nightmare and we had hoped when it was over we could get on with our lives but now they have built on our property this has made it very difficult and not content to just build on our property, they are waiting and have been for 8 months to finish the garden that they designed which unfortunately involves taking some of ours.

[Kittensbar]

Thank you very much for (a) taking the time to register and (b) that rather helpful piece of information.

our neighbours have been aware of the boundary breach from the beginning and as soon I realised what was going on I wrote to ask them to remove the section crossing the boundary. I received an email back to say they wanted no further communication.

Our neighbours do not want to discuss the extension. They ignore any correspondence regarding it. Even my ex husband wrote to Plus Rooms - he is a building surveyor with over 30 years experience and they simply said - we have done nothing wrong and just done what the client wanted. They just want you running from pillar to post until you give up.