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Advice needed - How to get Southwark Council to do their job


cuctacuctac

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(long rant alert)


Hi guys,


I need some advice. I live on the East Dulwich Estate. I'm the leaseholder/owner of the flat I'm living in. Since this afternoon (Saturday), I started having water surging in my kitchen sink, without using anything. No tap, no washing machine. The water was clearly coming from another flat. I took a video of how water was rising and how I didn't have anything on.


I then called Southwark Council, which is both the landlord and the management entity of this estate. When they found out I'm not a council tenant, first thing they said was oh it's my issue, I have to sort it out myself. Unless I can prove it's a communal issue with a plumber's report, then they can have a look.


Having to call out a plumber on a Saturday wasn't ideal but I didn't have any other choice. I got a number for a local plumber off recommendations on this forum actually and he kindly came within an hour. He tried sucking out the water, cleaning out my pipes but water would keep coming up, I suppose whenever some other flat was using their water. He then wrote out a report on what he did and what he recommended (communal pipes need unblocking). Worth noting that this is a one-man gig, not British Gas Home Services, who wouldn't have come in an hour, so the report was on a generic template. He left his phone number on the report in case someone from Southwark wanted to talk to him directly.


I then called the emergency line again. After half an hour waiting, someone picked up the phone. I finally got an email address to send the report as well as the video that I filmed, which clearly showed it's not an issue coming from my flat. Waited for I don't know how long, didn't hear back from them, called again. Only now did the lady from earlier call check my email. She told me to hold, then got back saying they can't accept this report because it was not on some letterhead paper with a logo. Basically she couldn't do anything.


While it's understandable that they want to verify this is not a hoax, their attitude and lack of cooperation thus far has left me frustrated beyond words. I'm not sure what they expect from a local plumber and if letterhead paper with a logo is a requirement, why no one told me in advance? Is this their way of saying people who work for themselves can't be trusted, only big corporations? I can of course get a plumbing company to come in, pay however much they will charge, for something that I don't think is my fault.


I'm under the understanding that as the Landlord and Management of this estate, Southwark Council should be responsible for anything that's beyond the periphery of my own flat. Has anyone got into something similar before? How did you get it resolved? Did the council even pay for the plumber call out fees?


I now have to keep an eye on the sink at all time in case someone decides to do laundry. Water would come up so fast that it will flood my kitchen if I don't remove it quickly with a bucket. What a lovely Saturday.

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Presumably your plumber is qualified, in which case there should be no problem getting an official report on headed paper or with his name and details.

I hope it clearly shows the source of the water as being external to your flat. You also need to list the damage to your flat and costs related.

You may need to force Southwark to act and then do a claim against them for damages incurred.

Keep detailed records of all communications (even attempted comms where they didn't answer phone etc), who you spoke to, time, etc...

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I believe he is qualified since he said he used to work for the council. I've sent report v2 (no headed paper but it's typed up instead of hand-written and has all of my plumber contact details) to Southwark. Waiting game round 2. Meanwhile, some serious nasty stuff just came into my sink. (Don't continue reading if you just ate or are eating) Someone just poured what felt like half a litre of leftover oil and all the lovely bits into their sink and indirectly into mine. Horror.
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Turns out my first plumber is not VAT registered. Southwark wants a plumbing report with a company name, company registration no, VAT no and CORGI no (not sure what that means). Anyone knows any good plumbing companies that can provide this and ideally can come today? I'm doing a round with random numbers from Google. Thought it might be good to ask for local recommendations.
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Oh they have been an absolute pain. Still had the cheek to tell me "Oh you got the wrong plumber, he may be qualified but doesn't have the documents to show for this. We need a report from a proper company. It's not the council, it's the plumber that's stressing you out". Jesus. Sent them the video of wastewater coming up in my sink - "No one can take an video as evidence. We need an invoice." And here I thought if a picture says a thousand words, a video must say many more than that. Apparently not. At least I have the means to look up people and call them. Imagine this was a 90-year-old lady, what would she have done to get them to come out. Absolutely appalling services.


In another rant, all the local plumbers I have called are not VAT registered so moving to bigger companies now. One just quoted ?250 + VAT for the first hour. Christ!

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ask them to specify the documents they need.


Corgi registration is the plumber's qualification. Is the one you used Corgi registered? There should be no requirement for them to be VAT registered, so that's nonsense. You can provide an invoice if plumber has charged you.

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Cuctacuctac,

Not only is CORGI historic, it is also irrelevent to a drains issue. A plumber who does not work on gas does not need Gas Safe Registration.


The situation most likely is that there is a vertical drain pipe taking the waste from your kitchen and all kitchens vertically above and, if there are any, below. Each kitchen feeds into the communal down pipe via a branch pipe. It is reasonable that you are responsible for your branch pipe.


Any water backflowing into your sink is obviously, as you have said, coming from the flats above - sinks, washing machines etc - and has met a blockage in the communal downpipe, below the point where your branch joins the communal pipe.


It is a matter of simple logic, requiring no plumbing qualifications or certification, that if the water is flowing back up your branch pipe, then THERE CANNOT BE A BLOCKAGE IN YOUR BRANCH PIPE.


A few questions that might help with your approaches to the Council:

Have you been phoning the general repair helpline or the Home Owners helpline?

Is there a flat below you and if so it a Council tenant? If yes then the Council will have to be doing repairs to the flat below, possibly emergency electrical repairs.

Since your branch is obviously not blocked, and any plumber would need to

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Sorry, posted prematurely, in error.

To continue, you plumber has tried and failed to clear that blockage. Any further work must be to communal pipe and your plumber surely has no authority to do so.


In the meantime, you have a crisis. have you spoken to the people above? Unless you tell them them will be unaware of where they are dumping their water. If you tell them, and they continue to do so, then they are knowingly causing damage to your flat. Best to do it in writing and make a note of discussions. Hopefully they will cooperate.


When you sink fills, does it drain away at all, but slowly? Washing machines drain in one go, so your neighbours would have to agree to not use them, but might have limited use of their sinks.

MarkT

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CORGI registration was replaced by the Gas Safe register in 2009. It's required of gas engineers. https://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/.


I assume one can be a competent plumber without doing gas work. Or even without incorporating as a company. And incorporation is no absolute guarantee of qualifications or competence. What the council is presumably wanting is evidence that they think thay can rely on as authoritative, rather than coming from an unknown (did the letter have a aname and address?) incompetent or cowboy. And I assume what they're wanting is evidence that there is a fault that they are legally responsible, as landlord, for rectifying; presumably one that's not limited to your flat. Jenny1's suggestion was useful.


Have you asked them if they will refund to you the ?250 + VAT (less perhaps your share as a leaseholder) if it turns out to confirm a fault within the system that it's their responsibility to maintain?


I agree generally with MarkT, whose posts I've just seen. Could something very distinctive, by colour and/or smell, be poured down a sink in a flat above, in the hope of it arriving in your kitchen and providing further, persuasive, evidence?

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I have been phoning the emergency repairs line (https://www.southwark.gov.uk/emergency-contacts). All the communications that I got from the council have been verbal though. I would send them what my plumber wrote out, they would call back saying, we can't accept this, we need so and so (company name, company number, VAT, CORGI). In my last email to them, I asked them to confirm in writing what the requirements for the plumbing report are. They haven't replied. Anyone knows what the professional body for plumbers is? Is there such a thing? If CORGI is required for gas engineer, I really don't get why they asked that of my plumber.


The letter from my plumber has his name, address, mobile number. He even put in if Southwark want to ask for more details, they can call him. They never did, kept saying it's not credible.


Yes I spoke to all the flats directly above mine when the problem first arose, all the way to the top floor (three floors up, I'm on the first floor). They all said they weren't using anything in the kitchen then, which is puzzling because then I really don't know where the water came from.


The flat below mine (ground floor) didn't have any problems so I guess the blockage much be in the communal pipe between my floor and the flat below.


I've contacted a plumbing company (https://www.plumbforcedirect.co.uk/ - has anyone used them) and they confirmed they can issue me a VAT invoice, which I sincerely hope is what the council requires (again, they never confirm what they want in writing). They will come late today though, so it's guaranteed that tomorrow I will wake up with a flooded kitchen, again! I'm also worried that the waste water could come into my washing machine (it sounds like it has) and cause damages there.


This has caused me so much stress - never thought I would cry over a kitchen sink. Thanks everyone for your inputs.

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I have some specific experience with an almost identical situation a flat in the middle of a vertical stack of 5 flats. In that case, privately owned. My friends came home to find a flood in their kitchen, backflowed out of their sink, and confronted with an angry leaseholder from the flat below. Water had come through his ceiling via his light fitting. He demanded that they pay the bill from an emergency electrician and finance the redecoration of his kitchen.


It turned out that he had replaced his original cast branch with plastic, but the new plastic pipe was partially blocking the downpipe and causing solids to collect from above, until the pipe was blocked. His drain meanwhile coninued to flow freely. In that case I took the initiative to tamper with the communal downpipe, but I would not be so bold as to tamper with the Council's property


I cleared the blockage, but I did not cut back his pipe, thus leaving the evidence that it was his fault. The management company accepted the obvious logic of my explanation, and he backed off with claims for compensation for his self-inflicted damage.


I repeat that it is obvious that your branch is not blocked. (It is also obvious, Ianr that the flood water is coming from the flats above.) Cuctacuctac, you need to seek the cooperation of those above to stop flooding your kitchen. They may be so far unaware.


If any water has gone through you floor to the flat below, be clear that you also a victim here.

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This may seem a silly question but have the Council actually sent anybody round to your property to investigate?


In the old days Neighbourhood Housing Offices had their own building inspectors/repairs desk who would come out and take a look. They knew the buildings backwards.


Unfortunately now you have a call centre with decisions on all matters now left to those with no pratical experience.


I wish you luck

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No actions from the Council whatsoever so far. The process is me calling the call centre, get the email of whoever pick up the phone, send them the latest version of the report that I have. They then send it to an Emergency Housing Officer, who you would expect to have some knowledge on this kind of matter. This Officer has consistently refused all the three reports I got from my first plumber, saying it's not professional enough. I'm not sure if the Officer even spent half a second to read what the report says.


I've left a note for all the flat vertically above mine. Can adjacent flats share communal pipes? Should I leave more notes for those on the adjacent stacks?

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It used to be that any pipes that took any water/waste away from your property to the outside drains or sewer pipe was the responsibility of the Council and the pipes from the point of entry from the outside into your flat is your responsibility. If there is no blockage from your pipes to the outside any pipes from the outside point of exit were the responsibility of the Council.


That is why the Council should come and inspect and if the blockage is within your property then you would need to get your own plumber to solve the problem within your property.


Who pays the bill is secondary until the Council inspects.


Outside pipes the Council, inside your responsibility

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First I would post on James (the new councillor's) thread to see if he can nudge them to do their job. Also I would phone first thing tomorrow morning, ask to speak to a manager and say that you're about to call your insurers who will pursue the council for their costs. Having some potential cost liability might focus their mind.


If it doesn't then call your insurers and let them fight with the council.

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alex_b Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> First I would post on James (the new councillor's)

> thread to see if he can nudge them to do their

> job. Also I would phone first thing tomorrow

> morning, ask to speak to a manager and say that

> you're about to call your insurers who will pursue

> the council for their costs. Having some potential

> cost liability might focus their mind.

>

> If it doesn't then call your insurers and let them

> fight with the council.



But once insurers are involved you risk having your future premiums hiked.

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cuctacuctac, try Leasehold Repairs 0207 525 2600 and [email protected].


I was assuming that all the communal drains run vertically. The flats now draining into yours must be above your kitchen sink, but there could be side branches in the communal drains. "Upstream" is the issue. Can you see the drain pipes? can you follow them upwards?

MarkT

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@spider69 - completely agree with you. The council should've come for an inspection first and who foots the bill is secondary. They're doing it the other way around though. Once they know I'm the leaseholder, they wash off their hands. When I decided to buy this flat not too long ago (my first ever property), I thought at least the council would look out for me, unlike some private management company. How naive!


@Sue/alex_b - I only moved in roughly two months ago, haven't got around to arrange my insurance yet. I don't even have all the furniture. But thanks for your suggestion on contacting the councillor. I'm in Champion Hill ward though so will be writing to mine soon.


@MarkT - that the number I've been calling. At weekend, there is only one option for Emergency Repairs. I can't see a pipe outside near my kitchen sink so I was thinking maybe it goes into the flat next door.


I have another plumber from a registered company coming in at 8.30pm. Crossing all my fingers that he can give me, I mean give the council, a "professional looking" report. This has been an absolute nightmare. No kidding, I dreamed about the sink yesterday and woke up at 3am. If that happens again today, I may actually get up and empty some water, may help the kitchen not to be flooded in the morning.

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Update: The second plumber from a registered company came. He took a look and said "yeah it's from the communal drain". He said he could clear it out and gave me a quote on the spot of ?350+VAT (wotttt). I called the council straightaway and was told that the plumber can't do anything with the communal drain, just write a report. So he did! He basically spent maybe 5 minutes in my flat, wrote me a piece of paper and put ?130 on my card for call out fee. Must be the easiest job ever.


Back to the phone with Southwark again. They must hate me because I was calling them every half an hour. It's ok, I'm not their biggest fan either. The guys picking up the phone kept saying "we will contact you shortly". Obviously our definitions of "shortly" weren't aligned. I was already planning what to say to my boss tomorrow when I can't show up.


FINALLY, at 11pm, Southwark sent someone out. The plumber brought this 7m long drain snake and was able to clear out the blockage. I'll deal with claiming back my money tomorrow but I think I can finally have some sleep without worrying about kitchen being flooded tonight. These last two days have been very stressful so thanks everyone who reached out to offer your advice. I really appreciate it.

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