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messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by trinidad January 12, 12:54AM

I think the best thing to do is air our concerns through the consultation process again, and say NO

--------------------
The hottest place in the world

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by jimlad48 January 12, 08:28AM

£125 cost has been frozen for years and it last 10 years has gone up a total of £5

I am going to sound harsh too and say that if you can afford to run, maintain and unsure 3 cars in london, theb you should be able to find an extra £125 each.

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by bels123 January 12, 08:59AM

jimlad48 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> £125 cost has been frozen for years and it last 10
> years has gone up a total of £5
>
> I am going to sound harsh too and say that if you
> can afford to run, maintain and unsure 3 cars in
> london, theb you should be able to find an extra
> £125 each.

And the families with 3 cars in one household must be few and far between.

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by rorsome January 12, 09:07AM

jimlad48 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am going to sound harsh too and say that if you
> can afford to run, maintain and unsure 3 cars in
> london, theb you should be able to find an extra
> £125 each.

I have to agree. I can drive but do not own a car and live on one of the roads in the scope of the consultation. Whilst I appreciate that public transport will not be appropriate for everyone and every journey, I am in support of any measures that will mean fewer car journeys are made in the borough, which (according to my limited research) controlled parking does (Scientific American). Done sensitively, controlled parking can have a positive economic impact on an area.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was january 12, 09:16am by rorsome.

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by Galileo January 12, 09:22AM

dulwichresident01 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The problem is that theyíre saying £125.00
> Ďinitiallyí! We all know that once itís in the
> price will keep on going up! Just google other
> neighbourhoods and youíll see. It was only on the
> news and in the papers yesterday about the death
> of local high streets caused by local councils...

Itís been £125 for years and years. Itís hardly risen. I paid a similar amount in Brixton over a decade ago.

As for the poor families with 3 cars ... they Cana ford to own and run 3 cars! Iíd prefer my 3 kids werenít breathing in all the particulates from their 3 cars personally.

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by TheArtfulDogger January 12, 10:50AM

Food for thought over this discussion

With the proposed ultra low emmision zone set to be introduced in 2021, cars in East Dulwich will have to meet the new emissions standards, be electric or have a daily charge imposed to use them.

This should reduce the number of diesel and older polluting cars in or entering the area

It will also lower the out of area commuters using East Dulwich as they will have to pay to get here unless their cars meet the new standards

Will this be enough to reduce the particulates element behind some people wanting a CPZ ? Especially as a CPZ won't be introduced until just before 2021 so proving if the CPZ worked or if it was the ULEZ will be difficult as the results will be intertwined.

With the argument that the businesses will or won't be effected, has anyone asked them for input and support (either for or against)

Maybe this is a call to action for the East Dulwich Action group as they claim to represent the traders 🤔

Regardless people should get online and do the survey to get their views represented otherwise, like most things, if the result isn't what you want there can be no whinging after if you didn't put your official response in.

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by AylwardS January 12, 10:53AM

The consultation is open, closes on 31 January. The documents are online at [consultations.southwark.gov.uk] There is a drop in session where you can go to ask questions on 26 January from 1400-1700 at Push Studios, 17 Blackwater Road if you have questions concerns and want to know more before filling in the consultation.

Parking problems and paying for parking is just one of the things you encounter living in London. Never welcome but part of living in a civilised societies that rules are needed so everyone can get along. They donít work for everyone all the time and where they may seem excessive to a sensible person there is always a selfish person who would do whatís restricted. Who hasnít seen a car parked on double yellow lines somewhere they cause a hold up for other traffic? Lucky you if you drive in London and havenít been held up, not quite the same but an example that what seems wrong can help in the end.

As a resident in what is now the Dog Kennel Hill zone for over 20 years I have seen a number of consultations for a parking zone and an increase in parking problems. Since the introduction of the zone parking, and driving around the zone, is much easier.

The East Dulwich zone will be bigger and commuters are not the only problem but the proposal looks reasonable. The split of bays means there will be parking for all types of user and people will still be able to park and visit local businesses, although if from outside the area they will need to pay if they want to stay longer than half an hour and if from within the zone and wanting to park without paying they will need to use the shared use bays not the short stay parking bays as the permit wonít be valid there.

To put a couple of the concerns expressed on this thread in context:
Local businesses will be affected - do any of the businesses on Lordship Lane sell anything that canít be carried / delivered. There is always the option of taking a taxi. Lordship Lane wonít be the only high street with paid for parking in London, and in 20+ years of living in East Dulwich I nearly always walk to Lordship Lane, Iím sure Iím not the only one - yes other people will have different situations but Iím sure there are plenty of people who walk to use the shops and restaurants in Lordship Lane.
People can pay for the short period by phone and leave the car all day. The signs in the consultation document have a limit on all paid for parking. In the Dog Kennel Hill zone the restriction is only for 2 hours but there is a limit on the paid for parking bays so a car can not be left there all day. The consultation paperwork refers to Thorburn Square and having looked at the traffic order for that it has a restriction so cars canít return to the same bay so if someone did pay to park and leave the car there all day a call could be made for enforcement and a penalty issued. Its a common problem and I wouldnít expect the Council to write the traffic order from scratch but use one theyíve written before, and if that isnít in the original order and does prove to be a problem its easier to amend an order once its in place than put a new one in.

Whether you support a CPZ or not read the documents for yourself, comments on here arenít always accurate even with the best of intentions, and respond to the consultation.

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by bonaome January 12, 11:01AM

Zig-Zag Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I imagine the reason they found people spent more
> when they come to Lordship Lane by foot or public
> transport rather than by car is because those
> shopping by car only have a short window of time
> to shop before they risk a parking ticket!

Unfortunately, I think the answer may be even simpler. In the TfL research pack on the economic benefits of cycling/walking etc, next to the box that says people on foot spend up to 40% more, is a box saying people on foot also come twice as often.

I'm reminded of when once TfL shared with me (on a professional basis - I once managed some of their advertising) the great news from a survey they had commissioned that cycling rates in London had risen dramatically! And the number of people thinking about cycling had doubled!! Sadly, they were looking at two waves of research, one conducted in November and one in July.

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by tommyboy January 12, 01:55PM

Any idea why Townley Road isnít included in the proposed CPZ plans? The traffic, including school buses during term times is terrible and vehicles are often parked on double yellow lines. Have also seen vehicles parked across driveways on this and Dovercourt Road.

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by bels123 January 12, 02:16PM

tommyboy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Any idea why Townley Road isnít included in the
> proposed CPZ plans? The traffic, including school
> buses during term times is terrible and vehicles
> are often parked on double yellow lines. Have also
> seen vehicles parked across driveways on this and
> Dovercourt Road.

Dulwich Village are starting early discussions re CPZ so Iím guessing it makes sense for Townley Rd to be included within that one. East Dulwich consultation mainly follows the Goose Green ward boundary I think.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was january 12, 07:20pm by bels123.

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by tommyboy January 12, 04:05PM

Many thanks.

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by rollflick January 12, 05:52PM

bonaome - the reason is once you get in a car you may as well keeping on driving to the supermarket etc. That's why enabling people to walk and cycle more is good for local shops.


dulwichresident01 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It was only on the news and in the papers yesterday about the death of local high streets caused by local councils...

Err any source for your latest claim? It's widely reported as internet shopping and lack of consumer confidence: [www.mirror.co.uk]

This isn't your average CPZ that's just about parking, the proposals include measures to improve walking, cycling and buses (i.e. help the majority of people get to Lordship Lane) plus environmental enhancements through extra greenery and tackling air pollution. Southwark certainly don't always get it right but this looks really good.

Surely if we'd like people to spend less time and money online, making our public spaces cleaner, safer and nicer is the way to go?

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by christgill January 12, 10:27PM

TheArtfulDogger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Food for thought over this discussion
>
> With the proposed ultra low emmision zone set to
> be introduced in 2021, cars in East Dulwich will
> have to meet the new emissions standards, be
> electric or have a daily charge imposed to use
> them.
>
> This should reduce the number of diesel and older
> polluting cars in or entering the area
>
> It will also lower the out of area commuters using
> East Dulwich as they will have to pay to get here
> unless their cars meet the new standards...
>

Per TfL website... "Petrol cars that meet the ULEZ standards are generally those registered with the DVLA after 2005, although cars that meet the standards have been available since 2001. Diesel cars that meet the standards are generally those registered with the DVLA after September 2015."

I don't think many cars will be excluded - £500-£1000 will get you a post 2005 car on eBay.

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by bonaome January 13, 11:22AM

rollflick Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> bonaome - the reason is once you get in a car you
> may as well keeping on driving to the supermarket
> etc. That's why enabling people to walk and cycle
> more is good for local shops.

That conclusion doesn't follow. The TfL meta-research selected for the pack says that people on foot spend more (roughly double, I think it said) and that half as many people drive as walk (it actually says 40% - but to keep the maths simple ...) so, 2 people come on foot and spend £10 each, 1 person drives and spends £10. Total spend £30. £20 spent by people who walk, i.e. twice as much as the £10 spent by the driver, who is outnumbered 2:1 by pedestrians.

I'm not saying the above is right. But it does fit the statistics TfL offer. And another possible conclusion is that the only reason the driver stops to spend £10 on LL is that they are already in their car on their way to Sainsbury's to do a big shop. If they can no longer park in the side streets off of LL and pop in for a coffee and a bun at Jade or busy a nice card from Greetings etc, then perhaps they simply won't come and spend on the lane will drop.

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by Sally Eva January 13, 11:53AM

The TfL research is here: [content.tfl.gov.uk]

Take-away messages:
people who walk and cycle spend up to 40% more than those who drive to their local high st
walking, cycling and public realm improvements (such as those suggested in this consultation) increase business on the High St by up to 30%
making it easier to walk and cycle and improving attractiveness of high streets increases the number of people who use them -- even though businesses often don't believe this
There's a lot more on the same lines -- all in pictures smiling smiley

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by Penguin68 January 13, 12:06PM

The question you have to add to this to make sense of it is travel frequency. Not how much per journey but also how much per time period. Someone travelling from a given point (some distance away from LL) and driving may well go more frequently, but spend less on each individual trip. Walking or cycling may be a 'bigger' ask (it will certainly take more time, putting time taken to look for a parking space aside). So the equation is probably distance plus frequency plus spend in order to make sense of these figures. If I live in LL then I will walk to shops and, since I can, spend more. If I live well away from LL I will have to travel further, but, if I drive, may travel more frequently.

Again, if I live on a bus route which takes me to LL I am more likely to make that trip than if getting there by public transport is more difficult or unreliable.

The simplistic figures provided by TfL need to be explained. There is otherwise no obvious mechanism whereby people who drive buy less than people who don't. Indeed and in general I would expect car ownership to be more closely correlated with higher levels of consumption.

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by Sally Eva January 13, 12:21PM

car ownership is expensive. Many people don't have cars because they cannot afford them, this is true, but an inference that those who walk and cycle are poorer than those who drive may not be true. Not having a car is a money saving decision in itself. That money then becomes available to spend on other things.

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Laneattachment
Posted by ED_moots January 13, 11:09PM

Consultation link is here... [consultations.southwark.gov.uk]

Deadline is 31st January.

Map of area attache.

Attachments: East Dulwich.JPG.jpg (105.7KB)  
messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Laneattachment
Posted by ED_moots January 13, 11:10PM

Consultation link is here... [consultations.southwark.gov.uk]

Deadline is 31st January.

Map of area attached.

Attachments: East Dulwich.JPG.jpg (105.7KB)  
messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by trinidad January 13, 11:46PM

As well as the proposed East Dulwhich Parking Zone, and healthier streets, there is also a number of adjustant streets which form the Peckham West Parking Zone and heather streets.

These streets include:
Map one Map two Map three
Choumert Road Oxenford Street Fenwick Road
Danby Street Marsden Road Fenwick Grove
Avondale Rise Muschamp Road Gowlett Road
Bellenden Road Ondine Road Keston Road
Oglander Road Everthorpe Road Amott Roads
Copleston Road Hayes Grove Hinckley Road
Adys Road Ondine Road Nutbrook Street
Maxted Road East Dulwich Road Howden street
Wingfield Street
Maxted Road
Waghorn street


The consultation link for the west Peckham is: [consultations.southwark.gov.uk]

This is injunction with the proposed East Dulwhich Parking and healthy streets study.

There are also two consultation meetings planed:

22nd January 2019 2:00PM - 3:30PM (business owners / traders)
Goose Green Community Centre, 62A East Dulwich Road SE22 9AT

23rd January 2019 4:00pm - 8:00pm (drop in)
St Johns Church, 62A East Dulwich Road SE22 9AT

The council has provided options for restrictions on the streets listed, with a suggestion to blanket restriction most of the streets with of 8:30am - 6:30pm Monday to Friday, and a charge of £125 per year, per car (£577.50 business vehicle)

Please read the hard copy of the consultation, please click on the link above, please attend the one consultation meeting. Please let the council have your views by 31st January 2019

--------------------
The hottest place in the world



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was january 14, 02:05pm by trinidad.

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by chazzle January 14, 04:33PM

With these CPZs, is the permit specific to one CPZ? So, if you live on the border between two, you can only use one side? This could be a real pain.

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by rahrahrah January 14, 04:55PM

TheArtfulDogger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Food for thought over this discussion
>
> With the proposed ultra low emmision zone set to
> be introduced in 2021, cars in East Dulwich will
> have to meet the new emissions standards, be
> electric or have a daily charge imposed to use
> them.
>
> This should reduce the number of diesel and older
> polluting cars in or entering the area
>
> It will also lower the out of area commuters using
> East Dulwich as they will have to pay to get here
> unless their cars meet the new standards
>
> Will this be enough to reduce the particulates
> element behind some people wanting a CPZ ?
> Especially as a CPZ won't be introduced until just
> before 2021 so proving if the CPZ worked or if it
> was the ULEZ will be difficult as the results will
> be intertwined.
>
> With the argument that the businesses will or
> won't be effected, has anyone asked them for input
> and support (either for or against)
>
> Maybe this is a call to action for the East
> Dulwich Action group as they claim to represent
> the traders 🤔
>
> Regardless people should get online and do the
> survey to get their views represented otherwise,
> like most things, if the result isn't what you
> want there can be no whinging after if you didn't
> put your official response in.

I actually think the ULEZ will do more to reduce the number of vehicles in the area than any CPZ will do.

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by rahrahrah January 14, 04:57PM

The 'consultation' period is pretty short, no?

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by ed_pete January 14, 05:08PM

chazzle Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> With these CPZs, is the permit specific to one
> CPZ? So, if you live on the border between two,
> you can only use one side? This could be a real
> pain.

Pretty sure that the answer is no. Your permit only allows you to park in your CPZ, not others. Not great for those that live close to the border or who have a need to park in another zone in Southwark.

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by chazzle January 14, 05:15PM

Up by the station, the North end of Melbourne Grove is mostly paid parking bays, increasing distance to a parking spot. Other side of the bridge would be OK, but different CPZ.

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by rahrahrah January 14, 05:29PM

There is a question along the lines of

"..if nearby areas vote in favour of a CPZ, would you then like one too (CPZ tend to displace traffic into neighbouring areas)."

So that's nice. If your neighbour lobs their rubbish over the fence, would you like to chuck it over the other side.

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by singalto January 14, 06:21PM

Charging cars to park on LL and a CPZ canít be good for local trade. And phone only payment for two hours means people can park all day and pay for the two hoursfrom wherever they were. Payment should be at a machine. Mind you, I donít want a CPZ at all.

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by se22 January 14, 07:11PM

Royal Mail has thousands of the consultation documents to deliver (one per affected household). The consultation period is very short. Given the current state of the local postal system I wonder how many will get delivered in time.

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by singalto January 14, 07:40PM

Mine was not delivered by RM.

messageRe: Proposed Controlled Parking Off Lordship Lane
Posted by Rockets January 14, 08:12PM

The more you look at the consultation documents the more you realise how flawed the council's approach is to this. Their recent extending of double-yellow lines in the area was designed to create parking congestion to help them justify this plan which is nothing more than an East Dulwich tax for the residents and enterprises who live here. The council is cashing in on the thriving community around Lordship Lane and I cannot see how this will do anything other than damage the uniqueness of the area.

East Dulwich currently works and the council is meddling for their own purposes and have been after this pot of gold for years - I do hope everyone sees through it.

I will make sure I attend the drop clinic to ask some pertinent questions as when you look at the proposals it is as ludicrous as Lambeth's Loughborough junction traffic programme which, thankfully, fell flat on its face a year or so after the council implemented it.

For example, has anyone looked at the plan around the leisure centre - from what I can see from the proposals I cannot see how that will work as many people, especially those with small families, drive to the leisure centre and these restrictions will make it impossible to do so (I also chuckled as the ludicrous number of disabled bays which recently appeared in front of the leisure centre are not marked on the proposals - probably because they have served their purpose in creating parking choke points - along with the extended double yellows).

I do hope people don't put their own selfish, well I want to be able to park outside my house arguments to one side and realise that if the council gets away with this Lordship Lane and the surrounding areas will be negatively impacted. Local traders are already mobilising and I suggest others do too, before it is too late.

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