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Putting items in your calico bag before you've paid for them?


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Is it just me or this a bit off and damaging to the businesses of Lordship Lane ? and beyond?


I was in the Co-op on Lordship Lane about 12noon today when I saw a middle class-looking main [greying cropped hair, fashionably dressed, with a calico fabric bag] putting items from the reduced cold storage cabinet directly into his bag.


I asked him to not do this but to use a shopping basket like all the other customers. (or words to that effect). I was assertive but polite.


His very calm reply was ?I?m ok with it, thanks? and to continue putting items directly in his calico bag.


Again, I was assertive but polite. I said ?Well, as a co-owner of this business, I?m not happy with it, it makes things very much more difficult for staff to detect and challenge theft. So please could you stop.?


The man continued putting items directly in his calico bag.


So I then went to talk to some shop staff and asked them to talk to the man. I left them to it, assuming that they would insist that he used the shopping baskets provided.


But a short while later I saw the man still with only a calico bag full of items, and still no shopping bag.


Finally, at the checkout, I went to pay a person, the man went to the machine-checkout. I saw him check several of his items through before it was my turn at the people-staffed checkout.


I spoke to a couple of Co-op Food Group staff, and they both said ?oh we do get customers who do that?. Really? This seems unhelpful, to those staff and all the businesses on Lordship Lane.


Is it just me or is this a bit off?


As someone who has several thousand pounds of debt incurred from past unsuccessful entrepreneurial attempts, I recognise that there may be all sorts of reasons why a person who looks prosperous may actually be very hard up. And I would have great sympathies if that were the case.


But that doesn?t mean that using calico bags in a way that enables others to steal is justified; for our culture in the long-term, I feel it?s pretty toxic.


My concerns are that:


? I see no reason why, if you prefer to use your own bags [calico or otherwise rather than a plastic bag ? for which I thank you], you can?t keep such bags in your pocket / handbag / rucksack and empty until you have paid at the checkouts [staffed or automatic]


? We need a transparent and fair economy that works for everyone with all fair costs paid for, and that includes customer behaviour


? I?m aware of Celeste (?) on Lordship Lane having had problems with ?customers? pocketing items in the past. Having worked in small independent shops myself many years ago, I can see that this is an ongoing challenge. A culture in which customers can put things in their own bags in the shop before paying creates unnecessary confusion, additional stress for staff, and theft-tolerating, anti-business culture in the whole street (and beyond).


? This may be another instance of people misunderstanding co-ops as charities rather than as businesses seeking to out-compete the vulture economy for the common good; the Co-op Food Group is a business like other food retailers, and like them has to operate with very thin margins (2% or less).


I have separate concerns that the Lordship Lane Co-op staff may lack the assertiveness to deal with such a situation; as one of the many thousands of co-owners of the Co-op Food Group I shall be writing to my London regional rep asking for clarification and action on that point.


But I thought it might also be helpful to post these comments here too.


I?m afraid I?m too busy to reply to any comments there may be, but I do hope that it?s not just me. We all need businesses for our all parts of our lives ? including employment - and bricks-and-mortar are under a lot of threats right now. Behaving in a way that reduces their vulnerability to theft and supports staff to prevent that seems a no-brainer to me ? especially when that business is cooperatively owned for the common good.


Best regards all,


Busy Rabbit

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If the Co-op staff were cool with it and the chap wasn't stealing, in what way was it any of your business at all? Unless I've misread this, it sounds as if you were being a total busybody, accusing an innocent person of being a potential shoplifter and trying to create a situation out of nothing - in an hilariously pompous way, assuming that as a "co-owner" of the Co-op (I assume you mean you work for the business) you somehow have a right to act like a policeman and order other people about in any Co-op store.


When my elderly great aunt goes to the supermarket (Waitrose) she takes her shopping trolley - unable to cope with both her trolley and a basket/second trolley, she always asks the security staff if it's OK to put stuff in her own trolley and they're more than happy with it - I presume if you were there you'd accuse her of using her trolley "in a way that enables others to steal"?


Love the fact that you're "too busy to reply to any comments there might be" but somehow have the time to post seven hundred words of nonsense about a non-issue.

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?Middle class-looking man? in Co-op puts items in calico bag before going to check out to pay for them


Or


Busy Rabbit spends time and energy composing long post about this and other stuff besides.


Now which of these two behaviours is the most bizarre? Hmmm let me think ...


And if you?re the man with the calico bag, we?d love to hear from you.

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Thanks Rendell Harris


Good criticism that I should be available to listen to, and respond to, criticisms of my post.


In response to:


"assuming that as a "co-owner" of the Co-op (I assume you mean you work for the business) you somehow have a right to act like a policeman and order other people about in any Co-op store" - I feel that you, perhaps, misunderstand co-operative ownership. Some co-ops are owned by their workers, some by their customers, some by their producers. The Co-op Food Group is mostly owned by its customer members, although these days staff are also able to be members. Because I am a customer member of the Co-op Food Group, I do indeed own the business in common with many thousands of other members, and hence I do have a right to be interested in what happens in the shop, and whether things may be happening that compromise the business.


In response to "When my elderly great aunt goes to the supermarket (Waitrose) she takes her shopping trolley - unable to cope with both her trolley and a basket/second trolley, she always asks the security staff if it's OK to put stuff in her own trolley and they're more than happy with it - I presume if you were there you'd accuse her of using her trolley "in a way that enables others to steal"? I would have absolutely no problem with this, for two reasons:

a) it's clar the reason for using her shopping trolley - the man I spoke to did not offer any reason why he felt he could not use a shopping basket; there may be a very good one but he didn't offer it.

b) she asks the security staff and they're happy with it - the man I spoke to did not say 'but I asked and no-one objected' Had he done so, I would not have posted.


Best regards


Busy Rabbit

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I put items directly into my upturned helmet as I can not cope with carrying a helmet and a shopping basket with no hands left to actually collect shopping. Then the helmet's too small so it all gets messy, and more often than not I put my helmet ON (half face helmet so you can see my whole face, and if they challenge me I ask if they would dare challenge a woman wearing full veil...). I guess my point is, that as long as the person does not leave the shop without paying for any item, that person can carry their stuff wherever, and anyway, if all you have is that one bag, how do you know how much to buy before it's full / too heavy? I'm with the dude. Oh, by the way what's calico?
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BusyRabbit Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

The Co-op Food Group is mostly owned

> by its customer members, although these days staff

> are also able to be members. Because I am a

> customer member of the Co-op Food Group, I do

> indeed own the business in common with many

> thousands of other members, and hence I do have a

> right to be interested in what happens in the

> shop, and whether things may be happening that

> compromise the business.


Bring interested in what happens in the business and pompously marching round shops accusing innocent shoppers of shoplifting and ordering staff about then complaining when they refuse to do your bidding are not the same thing.


> the man I spoke to did not offer any reason why

> he felt he could not use a shopping basket


Why should he offer you a reason? Owning shares in the Co-op does not give you the right to go around harassing other customers who, it appears, are perfectly lawfully going about their business. Like PeckhamRose above, I sometimes put things in my cycle helmet to carry them around the store (usually if I've gone in for one thing then realise I need several others). If another shopper with no official standing in the store asked me what I was doing I wouldn't offer them a reason either - I'd tell them to mind their own business and get a security guard if they were that bothered, and I'm pretty sure 99% of security guards would act in the same reasonable way the Co-op staff did. Until a person leaves the store with goods for which they have not paid, they have committed no offence and don't deserve to be bothered by pompous self-appointed vigilantes.

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I have seen this type of behaviour in sainsburys many times, especially with the elderly & their shopping trolleys.


Firstly I have realised many shops know their customers do, secondly I'm not sure how/if they can pick & choose who is allowed to do this thirdly it's not my business to interfere.


I would also like to add I wouldn't be happy if customers were to do this in my store.


I saw a guy last Thursday pick up about 4/5 packs of fresh steak & walk out with them.

Nobody was around to stop him, & it wasn't my business to get involved.

To be honest staff & security no longer care so much anymore, most of us are underpaid & overworked!

Even managers pretend like they haven't seen certain things!


You have to ask yourself "is it worth it"

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Thanks.


I didn't accuse the man of shoplifting, I asked him to use a shopping basket and explained why. There's an important distinction between the two, and I believe I would be legally vulnerable to accusations of slander if I had accused him of shoplifting. Technically, shoplifting doesn't occur until someone actually walks out of a commercial premises not having paid for goods; the language I used was mindful of that.


btw, If I saw anyone doing this in any business, whether or not I was a co-owner of it, I would be concerned.


Best regards

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?As someone who has several thousand pounds of debt incurred from past unsuccessful entrepreneurial attempts, I recognise that there may be all sorts of reasons why a person who looks prosperous may actually be very hard up. And I would have great sympathies if that were the case.?


You may not have directly accused the man of shop-lifting but there is a definite implication here.

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Thanks Peckham Rose. Your example of having an unwieldy helmet to carry at the same time makes it clear why you're not using a shopping basket. The man had no other items in his hands. In addition, you can see some of what's in a helmet, given its shape; you can't see through or into a cotton bag. So there's an element of transparency in your behaviour that I didn't see in today's earlier incident.


I didn't ask the man what he was doing, I asked him to use a shopping basket. If you wish to respond angrily to such a question, that's your decision.


Calico = form of cotton fabric.


Best regards

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Appearances can be deceptive

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3702028/High-end-shoplifter-donned-fur-coat-blend-exclusive-surroundings-swiped-valuable-jewellery-Harvey-Nichols-Liberty-Dolce-Gabbana.html


I always attracted attention from security staff in dept. stores when I used to shop....I am quite scruffy and do not wear designer clothes! And I've never stolen anything.

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Please see my post above. Having worked in retail many years ago, I am reasonably aware of what can and cannot be said in such instances.


As both I and Peckham Rose have explained, shoplifting does not actually occur until someone walks out of a commercial premises not having paid for goods. I therefore did nothing more than ask the man to use a shopping basket, and explained why when he said 'I'm ok with it, thanks.'. I did not accuse him of shoplifting or infer that he was going to do such a thing; that would have been slander.


Being clear and transparent about the items for which one has not yet paid and those which one bought elsewhere is an easy way to avoid any questions that one may feel are awkward or invasive from staff or members of the public - especially if one's priority is to never have one's behaviour questioned, or to shop quickly and easily. Hence, supermarkets provide shopping baskets.


Best regards

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There's a big difference between someone slipping an item into a bag when also pushing a trolley / carrying a basket and clearly using your own bag for your shopping.


It might have seemed suspicious a few years ago but these days it makes perfect sense to use your own bag so you know how much you can fit in it and whether it will be too heavy to carry comfortably. You can't grab a few extra carrier bags to carry extra items or split the load evenly between a few bags without having to pay for extra bags.


Then you invariably have to scan your own shopping at the till anyway, so I would think that dishonest people are more likely to abuse the scanning system than to attract attention to themselves by stashing loads of goods in their own bag.


In my case, I often put shopping underneath the pushchair while I'm still in the store. It saves me carrying a basket / bag and also helps me to know how much will fit.

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Thanks sweetgirl. I have no problem with elderly people as your or Rendell Harris have described - especially if they make it clear to security staff. (I remember now that I have elderly friends whose nearest supermarket is the Waitrose at Canary Wharf, which provides a digital self-checkout device to be used as you go round the shop, adding items to your basket, shopping trolley, or any other container.)


In response to "I'm not sure how/if they [shops[ can pick & choose who is allowed to do this" -

shop staff and others have to be very careful. You cannot accuse someone of shoplifting unless and until the accussed person has walked out of a premises with unpaid-for goods. Until then, the most you can do is, say, ask a customer to use a shopping basket or trolley that you have provided. Beyond that, retailers may ask a customer to leave their premises, provided (I think) that this doesn't breach equality rights legislation (but I really don't know the details of the Equality Act at all).


In response to: "I would also like to add I wouldn't be happy if customers were to do this in my store." -

thank you!


In response to:


"thirdly it's not my business to interfere.

I saw a guy last Thursday pick up about 4/5 packs of fresh steak & walk out with them.

Nobody was around to stop him, & it wasn't my business to get involved.

To be honest staff & security no longer care so much anymore, most of us are underpaid & overworked!

Even managers pretend like they haven't seen certain things!


You have to ask yourself "is it worth it" "


I had a very interesting conversation on a bus with a security guard a while ago; he told me quite a lot about the challenges shop managers have in preventing and monitoring theft, and how the security business tries to meet that challenge. (Very interesting if you're a nerdy type interested in the ways different businesses try to develop and adapt; there's a really good opportunity for a co-operatively owned security business run by security guards themselves imho.) I've not had the experience of security staff not caring about theft, so maybe I'm very naive about this issue. (7 or 8 years ago I remember attending a ward police liaison meeting at which the manager of Peckham Primark was speaking; the verbal and physical abuse his staff routinely received then was awful and disgusting - they were regularly spat at by some customers; anyone who works in that shop has my respect for being able to do so.).


Yes, many of us are underpaid and overworked. That in itself can be argued to be a form of theft. Sadly, I don't think we can make a morally compelling case against theft from us if we ourselves are also knowlingly complicit in theft from others. We need to learn the language and skills to speak up respectfully about potential misdemeanours when and where we see them. Merely asking a question at the right time can nip a potential problem in the bud; over the years, I have several experiences of this in retail work.


I may be wrong, but I suspect that sometimes - just sometimes - the actual feeling underlying "it's not my business" may be more a fear, of how to say something in difficult conflictual situations in a respectful and assertive way, than a literal belief that 'it's not my business'. I had a fantastic life coach who taught me respectfully assertive language for a personal challenge; it's been very useful everywhere in my life since...


I know that sometimes my judgement and speaking up may be wrong; I don't yet feel that today was one of those occasions. I've learnt from people's responses, and raised an issue for wider discussion. I hope posters on this thread feel it's been useful for them too.


Best regards

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Thanks nxjen.


That's easy. Someone can dress posh and no longer have a job, be struggling to find work, have a failed business, be too ill to work etc etc.


There might be all sorts of very sad reasons why someone might look posh but have no money, and be wanting things they can't afford [but used to afford easily] OR feel tempted to try and steal something OR try to steal something. I would tend to be sympathetic to that situation if so, depending on the circumstances - but that would not mean that I would act to ignore potential theft.


I hope that helps you understand what I meant.


Best regards

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God Almighty. This guy was not stealing. You said yourself you saw him paying for his goods. The staff weren't bothered by his actions. You've constructed a massive castle in the air about shoplifting on the basis of the fact that the guy, quite properly, refused to be intimidated by your self-righteous self-appointment as some form of shoplifting vigilante and that the staff refused to do what you told them to. You don't have the right to go round accusing other people of shoplifting willy-nilly (which was clearly the implication (not inference) of your attempt to order him to use a basket, whatever you say about being careful with your language). Frankly I think you were very lucky that this guy refused to be riled by your unwarranted, officious and petty intervention; it would be understandable for someone to take far more offence at such nonsense. If you think someone's shoplifting, tell the shop staff and let them decide how they will react in their own store. Don't strut around thinking you have the right to tell other people how to behave when they're doing nothing wrong, it's pompous, petty, unjustified and rude.
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To add another stir to the pot - the gentleman in question may have been well-known to the staff as someone who habitually placed shopping in his own bag and then paid for it. And therefore to be treated with natural courtesy and respect. He does not appear (based at least on the ease in which you spotted his behaviour) to have been acting covertly or suspiciously as regards his placing of items openly in his own own bag before paying for them.
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Thanks ed26.


In response to: "There's a big difference between someone slipping an item into a bag when also pushing a trolley / carrying a basket and clearly using your own bag for your shopping."


Actually, that's a * very * good point. Thank you! There's a slight grey area with items that aren't labelled by the shop but that's mostly only fruit and veg, so it's not a shop-wide issue of theft risk. For independents without clear price labelling this isn't an answer, hence the need for more engaged and engaging retail staff in independents.


In response to: "It might have seemed suspicious a few years ago but these days it makes perfect sense to use your own bag so you know how much you can fit in it and whether it will be too heavy to carry comfortably. You can't grab a few extra carrier bags to carry extra items or split the load evenly between a few bags without having to pay for extra bags."


I don't quite follow the logic of 'I have to carry my own bag rather than pay 5p so I can't use a shopping basket.'. Maybe I'm missing something.


In respnse to: "Then you invariably have to scan your own shopping at the till anyway, so I would think that dishonest people are more likely to abuse the scanning system than to attract attention to themselves by stashing loads of goods in their own bag."


Another good point. I think the research evidence is that most people do scan all their items. But I think if there's a culture of using your own non-transparent bag * and * scanning your own items that this is much more vulnerable to abuse than if you have a shop-provided basket or trolley and then self-scan. There's no point at which customers are having to be transparent to retailers in this process, whereas, say, the Canary Wharf Waitrose system means you scan as you go so you don't have to wait to queue at the end. Many years of working in retail on and off makes me sceptical about human purchasing behaviour in the absence of clear proactive interaction points between customer and seller, but maybe I'm wrong. Time will tell, I guess!


In response to: "In my case, I often put shopping underneath the pushchair while I'm still in the store. It saves me carrying a basket / bag and also helps me to know how much will fit."


Carrying a basket at the same time as a puschair is really unwieldy; I remember those days and the weekly unwieldy shop, and the limitations of how much shopping I could carry home. Now that you've jogged my memory, I think I may have put nappies in the basket beneath the buggy during the supermarket, and then taken them out to pay at the till.


But if anyone had asked me what I was doing, I would have been able to explain. I wouldn't have thought to say 'I'm alright with what I'm doing thanks' [inferring that no-one else had the right to question my behaviour]. I would have explained: 'this is my weekly shop, and I need to fill my basket with food, so the nappies are temporarily in the basket and I will pay at the checkout.' The man I spoke with today did not do that, sadly.


Best regards

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Stone me. Someone thinks a lot of themselves, eh? To the extent that they think they have a "right" to demand answers to impertinent, intrusive and arrogant questioning of people doing nothing wrong. I'll say again, you were bloody lucky the guy was patient and passive enough to give you a perfectly reasonable and polite answer.
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Penguin68 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> By the way, comrades, is this the most prolix

> troll in the history of the forum?


Bloody good effort for someone who was originally too busy to answer, certainly (though not too busy to go round pestering innocent shoppers then writing a 700 word account of it for our edification).

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