We live near Goodrich and often have our driveway blocked by inconsiderate parents. We have been very surprised by the school’s lack of engagement on the subject, as all they suggested is that we speak to Southwark parking enforcement (which we are happy to do) when it would be helpful if they would also offer to speak to their parents. Making our lives more difficult due to inconsiderate parents seems unfair. Surely parking wardens handing out tickets to discourage dangerous parking would be more effective?

It is only a morning issue around us in any case so I hope any approach would not impact around pick up times. I often leave home around 3pm and get back around 4pm and there is never the same problem then.

How odd that wardens would not issue fines for dangerous parking. Have Southwark instructed them not to, I wonder?




Passiflira Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------
> Bessemer Grange should have had CEO's (otherwise


> known as traffic wardens) patrolling the school at
> drop-off and pick-up times, prior to the street
> closure. Why didn't they if there was such a
> parking problem? The head must have known about
> parking issues but the head has now imposed other
> parking issues on the local surrounding community
> i.e. inside and outside of the yellow gates.
>
> I've noticed that the two disabled parking bays
> directly opposite the school are due to be taken
> out (notices on lamp-posts recently) but nothing
> about the zig zag lines directly outside the
> school so what's the point of them?
>
> So now the surrounding area have to put up with
> cars parked on double yellow lines, across
> driveways, across zebra crossing zig-zags,
> neighbours cars being damaged. This is just
> around the corner from Bessemer Grange and this
> also impacts on children's safety.
>
> The area is suddenly (since last Sept/Oct) being
> patrolled by CEO's on foot and in cars but they
> are reluctant to issue any fines in the area.
> I've spoken to them regularly about the problem in
> the area since the Street Closure but they all
> seem very friendly with the parents driving into
> the school.

Really, I think Goodrich School do their best with inconsiderate drivers and parkers but they don't have the resources to police the streets every day. The problem at Goodrich is exacerbated by having two nurseries almost directly opposite one of their main entrances.

Dangerous and thoughtless parking happens outside all schools. Parents keep their engines running both is summer and winter. They park on double yellow lines, in disabled bays. Parking attendants should do their job and fine any driver who breaks the rules. If that leads to confrontations, maybe taking a photo of cars and sending fines Through the post is needed. There is an obesity crisis among school children and yet parents want to park at the school gates!

Not to detract from the school streets discussion, but the parking enforcement point is an important and very related one. In terms of deterrents to driving school streets could work if it became more effort to drive than to walk, but not if people can park across driveways / on corners/ on double yellows.

I’ve seen all these things happen around goose green school at pick up time and the traffic warden being there but doing nothing about it and just waving to some of the parents involved. Even without school streets, proper enforcement of existing rules like not parking right up to junctions or on double yellows would make a huge difference to safety.

I think what the school streets add is an additional layer of environmental safety for our children but they need to come with proper enforcement or they won’t work as intended.

As a cyclist and parent at Bessemer Grange, two things have become clear during the road closure there:
- it’s genuinely possible to see how the kids feel safer just outside their entrance, particularly at this school which is split across both sides of the road
- even with lots of traffic wardens and teachers around monitoring, it doesn’t reduce the stupidity of some drivers to stop their cars in the worst possible place, endangering the lives of anyone but their own kids

I saw a parking enforcement officer look at a car parked partly on the pavement on a corner with double yellow lines by a local school. The car was opposite the entrance to the school. The warden did absolutely nothing about it.why bother employing them?

They must have been directed not to enforce. The cynical side of me wonders if this is a deliberate ploy to add as much fuel as possible to the council drive for mass CPZ, yellow lines, road closures.

Monkey Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It will be disruptive for residents but, living
> opposite a local school and being witness to the
> utterly idiotic and dangerous driving of quite a
> lot of parents on a daily basis - even when the
> police are around - i’m 100% supportive of this
> new scheme.

^this (as someone who also lives opposite a school).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was february 07, 01:30pm by rahrahrah.

Inconsiderate parents/carers parking outside Goodrich school are well known to the local police who are frequently called out to deal with some of the more 'aggressive' parents.

Many years ago (25?) when our child was at St. Anthony school, members of the Friends of St. Anthony took turns over a few days to stand in front of the entrance mornings and afternoons and took down the registration numbers of cars blocking the school entrance, double parking and being a nuisance to neighbours, It was apparent after a few days there were 'regulars'. The registration details were given to the local police and I believe some of these parents were approached and given verbal warnings. I believe this was at the time police could issue tickets for parking offences.

jamesmcash Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi all
>
> It's great to see that this initiative is being
> discussed on the Forum! I have been discussing
> this with a number of the schools in the Goose
> Green area and there is a lot of interest. It is
> probable that we would look at something around
> Goose Green Primary School initially but there is
> potential for it at a number of other schools. Of
> course, as with all these schemes, the devil is in
> the detail so before anything is implemented i
> would want to ensure there is adequate discussion
> with both the school and the local community.
>
> Best wishes
> James

Good luck with that idea James!

I'm a Bessemer Parent; I am delighted with the road closure and would recommend the initiative being deployed at other schools where practical. From what I can see, the school tried several methods over a sustained period of time to protect the children from the inconsiderate and dangerous habits of a minority of parent drivers. This seems to be the only thing that has been effective.

From what I notice, there hasn't been a massive shift in parking issues to surrounding roads. Parking around there has always been tight and remains so (I guess that's part of the reason some people park illegally by the school). But as I continue my onward journey up Woodfarrs or Dylways, there generally seem to be some spaces available. Further, the number of legal spaces in the closed area is minimal as most of it is covered by the school zig-zags.

With regards to the school's expansion and the distance that parents travel; according to the 2017 intake data, it's oversubscribed (the most-applied for school in the borough) and the furthest distance offered was 1223 metres. So the number of parents travelling from distance should be reducing, not the other way round.

DuncanW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm a Bessemer Parent; I am delighted with the
> road closure and would recommend the initiative
> being deployed at other schools where practical.
> From what I can see, the school tried several
> methods over a sustained period of time to protect
> the children from the inconsiderate and dangerous
> habits of a minority of parent drivers. This seems
> to be the only thing that has been effective.
>
> From what I notice, there hasn't been a massive
> shift in parking issues to surrounding roads.
> Parking around there has always been tight and
> remains so (I guess that's part of the reason some
> people park illegally by the school). But as I
> continue my onward journey up Woodfarrs or
> Dylways, there generally seem to be some spaces
> available. Further, the number of legal spaces in
> the closed area is minimal as most of it is
> covered by the school zig-zags.
>
> With regards to the school's expansion and the
> distance that parents travel; according to the
> 2017 intake data, it's oversubscribed (the
> most-applied for school in the borough) and the
> furthest distance offered was 1223 metres. So the
> number of parents travelling from distance should
> be reducing, not the other way round.

Obviously you do not live in the area but as a bike rider of course you would be delighted with the scheme.

I think a number of parents drive to school to drop their children off and then drive to work. So living near the school doesn’t mean parents don’t drive.

Passiflora Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> DuncanW Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I'm a Bessemer Parent; I am delighted with the
> > road closure and would recommend the initiative
> > being deployed at other schools where
> practical.
> > From what I can see, the school tried several
> > methods over a sustained period of time to
> protect
> > the children from the inconsiderate and
> dangerous
> > habits of a minority of parent drivers. This
> seems
> > to be the only thing that has been effective.
> >
> > From what I notice, there hasn't been a massive
> > shift in parking issues to surrounding roads.
> > Parking around there has always been tight and
> > remains so (I guess that's part of the reason
> some
> > people park illegally by the school). But as I
> > continue my onward journey up Woodfarrs or
> > Dylways, there generally seem to be some spaces
> > available. Further, the number of legal spaces
> in
> > the closed area is minimal as most of it is
> > covered by the school zig-zags.
> >
> > With regards to the school's expansion and the
> > distance that parents travel; according to the
> > 2017 intake data, it's oversubscribed (the
> > most-applied for school in the borough) and the
> > furthest distance offered was 1223 metres. So
> the
> > number of parents travelling from distance
> should
> > be reducing, not the other way round.
>
> Obviously you do not live in the area but as a
> bike rider of course you would be delighted with
> the scheme.

This message in support of the Bessemer Grange scheme starts "As a Bessemer parent......". Later on it says that the catchment area around the school is small and reducing. The claim to be a parent might not be true I recognise but if the message is taken at face value the straightforward implication is that the writer lives near the school. He does cycle.

Unless Bessemer has an unusual oversubscription policy I can't see how they will go from pupils comong from a large area to pupils coming from a small area close to the school .

Surely those who live some way away will mostly have siblings who will be given priority for a place ?
Or have things changed ?

This is OT really but if a school has been oversubscribed for 10 years and assuming that most people have 2 or 3 children 2 or 3 years apart,then the sibling group will last about 10 years. You can see that if people move away when the first child is at the school -- or lived quite a long way away when it was less in demand -- that the sibling groups will gradually come closer and closer to the school gate.

If people do move away and/or have a child a long time after the first then they may put the later child(ren) into a school closer to where they now live or where the eldest child goes to secondary school.

My daughter is in bristol but the local state primary has a catchment area of 350 yards -- Goodrich used to be similar and probably still is. At secondary level many schools don't take siblings as a matter of policy.

I live quite close to Goodrich School. It looks like a majority of children do walk to school in the mornings. I do notice a number of parents who drive to the school. Unfortunately some then park on the double yellow lines on the junctions. These DYL's are there to improve sight lines which make it safer for parents and children, especially with prams and buggies to cross the road. In the afternoon some parents arrive early and park on the double yellow lines and leave their engines running especially now when the weather is cold. It is an offence to leave a vehicle in 'idling' mode when stationery. Many drivers are unaware of this when I challenge them. The rule is:-if a driver fails to turn off an idling vehicle when asked to do so by a warden of parking attendant, they could face a penalty charge notice.
I would appeal to parents to please walk to and from school. This would help with some of the congestion and promote a more healthy lifestyle.


Yours Sincerely

Councillor Charlie Smith
Goose Green Ward Member

We have the same problems with the Harris primary school. Idling engines all the year round too!

Where are the parking wardens/enforcement officers??

We don't need a hammer to crack a nut...it's reasonable behaviour that is required, not control, closures, 'residents only', new signs, barriers, street access times, etc.

This is crazy.

And to all the people in Herne Hill, those whose houses I parked outside when I took my children [and my friend's children in a car share] to school...I parked outside your house twice a day, Mon-Fri during term time and I thank you for the opportunity to do so.

I now live near a school so...feel free....It's now my turn to have a minor inconvenience.

Traffic wardens are the answer, not sleep walking into another Southwark Council initiative to control the roads, based on a 'good idea', and without any investigation into individual needs of the area.

Both Intexasatthemoment and Singalto make an important point that is often ignored: that parents may just want to drop their children safely at the school before driving elsewhere. Two of my children have to put up with being dropped off half an hour before registration begins, but at least that is an option. What I find difficult is those parents who are happy to block my driveway as though I don't also have children and don't need access to my own house - and I don't do that to other people.

The closure doesn't stop parents from driving their children to school. It stops them from driving their children to the school gate.

In other words it keeps traffic a certain distance from the school gate so that children can approach the school gate more safely. It also reduces pollution around the school gate at arrival and departure times.

I was interested in seeing this in action so went past on Friday. I was a little late so got there at 4:04pm. There was no sign of the road closure at all. So 4 mins after the 1 hour afternoon scheduled closure of the road directly outside the school entrance, there was no sign of it!

Am posting this as a little perspective amidst all the talk of sledgehammer to crack a nut etc. It’s a very limited closure scheme for an hour in the morning and one in the evening. The rest of the time the road is open as usual. I’m also presuming that it will also only apply in term time.

The point of these schemes are to cut down on the pollution kids are exposed to on the school run, for all the reasons noted above re idling cars, dangerous parking etc. In an ideal world it wouldn’t be necessary because everyone would be very considerate. But that isn’t the case. Also worth flagging that small children are disproportionately affected by pollution as they are closer to the source re exhaust fumes as well as their relative size to amount of pollution.

>
> This message in support of the Bessemer Grange
> scheme starts "As a Bessemer parent......". Later
> on it says that the catchment area around the
> school is small and reducing. The claim to be a
> parent might not be true I recognise but if the
> message is taken at face value the straightforward
> implication is that the writer lives near the
> school. He does cycle.


Hi Sally, not sure if I understood this post. Are you saying I might be lying about being a Bessemer parent? That's a bit perplexing to say the least, unless I have misconstrued what you are saying there.

But yes, I am a BG parent, we do not live in the immediate vicinity and yes my kids and I ride bicycles to school and then I continue on to work in London. Hope that gives my perspective the clarity and context needed.

replied by private message

I'm against the closure of streets to deal with what is essentially small inconvenience at limited times during the day. I drive to my child's school and then proceed on to work. I have intermittent mobility issues and even aside from that feel that if someone what's to drive they should be able to. We need to get away from the anti car rhetoric that seems fashionable. Not everyone can walk or cycle. What I want to know is wherever or not they've tried alternatives like a school carpool drop off queue. I have a colleague in Croydon who has a child who is collected from the car by voluenter / teachers each morning, this avoids cars idling and a steady stream on moving traffic. The parents volunteer and it's supported by teachers on rotation- if you need to see a teacher you know which day of the week they will be manning the queue. She reports it works really well and traffic clears quickly as they self regulate it to be a one way system, allowing others to pass. In the main, most children walk to school, but for those who don't it's ideal. My point is there are ways around these issues without such draconian measures. A small school bus would also help those not in the immediate area too. Funny i don't read about the congestion around JAGs witg thier cars and coaches on here. The anti car lobby need to get a grip as I'm sure they'd still have an issue when all area are running in electric or hydrogen;).

VerryBerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm against the closure of streets to deal with
> what is essentially small inconvenience at limited
> times during the day.

Approximately 10,000 children a year are injured in vehicle accidents within 500m of their school gates. It's not a small issue.

I have intermittent
> mobility issues and even aside from that feel that
> if someone what's to drive they should be able to.

Everyone should be allowed to do exactly what they want at all times? Or does civilisation depend on people having to curb some of their purely selfish demands for the benefit of society as a whole?

> We need to get away from the anti car rhetoric...
that seems fashionable.
> The anti car lobby need to get a grip as I'm sure
> they'd still have an issue when all area are
> running in electric or hydrogen;).

9,000 people in London die prematurely in London every year from polluted air. Children are growing up physically and mentally impaired due to the effects of pollution. No winky smiley from me, I'm afraid.

goldilocks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was interested in seeing this in action so went
> past on Friday. I was a little late so got there
> at 4:04pm. There was no sign of the road closure
> at all. So 4 mins after the 1 hour afternoon
> scheduled closure of the road directly outside the
> school entrance, there was no sign of it!
>
> Am posting this as a little perspective amidst all
> the talk of sledgehammer to crack a nut etc. It’s
> a very limited closure scheme for an hour in the
> morning and one in the evening. The rest of the
> time the road is open as usual. I’m also presuming
> that it will also only apply in term time.
>
> The point of these schemes are to cut down on the
> pollution kids are exposed to on the school run,
> for all the reasons noted above re idling cars,
> dangerous parking etc. In an ideal world it
> wouldn’t be necessary because everyone would be
> very considerate. But that isn’t the case. Also
> worth flagging that small children are
> disproportionately affected by pollution as they
> are closer to the source re exhaust fumes as well
> as their relative size to amount of pollution.

You were not just a little late at 4.04pm but very late in the scheme of things for this street closure!

But it looks like Bessemer Grange have agreed that Nairne Grove will have a permanent barrier in place soon with road signage warning car drivers not to park on the remaining part of Nairne Grove, which has been cut off for the past 5 months.

Southwark Council highways and biways really need to get their act together!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was february 11, 10:54pm by Passiflora.

I do wonder why FPNs have not been issued for parking on double yellows etc, especially if there are wardens in situ?

In terms of pollution and physical dangers, won't the problem simply be displaced to streets adjacent to the blocked road outside each school? So there will be stats produced to show success and a reduction in the problem but that will only be immediately outside the schools?

Will the majority of those currently driving their children in to school just stop?

People are not necessarily driving their children to school from very far away or going on to work.

About 15 years ago I was in a school gate conversation about how parents parked on the zig zag lines and double parked all over the place and this was dangerous and the school couldn't get them to stop and traffic wardens could only come occasionally because this was happening at schools all over the borough and there weren't enough wardens.

This Mum (ex-teacher) confessed that she drove her daughter to school although they lived 10 minutes walk away. Her daughter didn't want to walk and somehow they were always late. This Mum didn't go on to work. She drove home. Since they lived so near the school this probably wasn't even quicker with getting in and out, parking etc.

I think it is fair to say that some of those driving their children will just stop. Those who drop their children off on the way to work will be able to drop them off further away because it will be safer for the children to walk the last yards to the school gate.