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messageRe: June 3rd will be the last day of The Palmerston
Posted by JohnL February 08, 02:05PM

There's a huge court case here and I don't understand it, but there's a 1989 30 year lease. That expires 2019 ?

[www.casemine.com]

messageRe: June 3rd will be the last day of The Palmerston
Posted by JoeLeg February 08, 03:14PM

Well this just gets weirder and weirder...


All Iíll say is that Enterprise are one of the nastiest, scummiest group of bottom-feeding pieces of crap you could ever hope to avoid, and if theyíre Jaimeís opposition I actually feel sorry for him (thereís a first!).

messageRe: June 3rd will be the last day of The Palmerston
Posted by ali2007 February 08, 04:50PM

this is very sad indeed. I LOVE the Palmerston. Best food in ED in my opinion :-(

messageRe: June 3rd will be the last day of The Palmerston
Posted by rendelharris February 08, 06:22PM

Abe_froeman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Maybe so Rendel, but it says that he took over the
> pub with his business partner Jamie Younger.


Sorry, missed that bit. Maybe they've fallen out? All seems daft complex. Can't say the Palmerston has ever been a great favourite (though perfectly acceptable for a pint and conveniently positioned right opposite the dentist!) but it'd be really sad to see yet another pub disappear for posh flats or retail.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was february 08, 06:44pm by rendelharris.

messageRe: June 3rd will be the last day of The Palmerston
Posted by DovertheRoad February 08, 08:53PM

Genuine question - what kind of business grosses higher takings than a good, well loved restaurant on LL?

messageRe: June 3rd will be the last day of The Palmerston
Posted by Abe_froeman February 08, 08:58PM

I cant see that site becoming flats. It is in the best location, has space for plenty of covers, a loyal local clientel and will habe no sitting tenant. It must be worth an absolute fortune to the right operator.

messageRe: June 3rd will be the last day of The Palmerston
Posted by Abe_froeman February 08, 09:00PM

Youngs for instance. If they thought the Cherru Tree was value they would pay a fortune for the Palmerston.

messageRe: June 3rd will be the last day of The Palmerston
Posted by JoeLeg February 08, 09:11PM

DovertheRoad Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Genuine question - what kind of business grosses
> higher takings than a good, well loved restaurant
> on LL?


In hospitality - like all businesses - itís not so much about turnover as profit margin. And profits in the restaurant world a pretty thin at the best of times. These are not the best of times in that industry.

messageRe: June 3rd will be the last day of The Palmerston
Posted by Loutwo February 08, 09:11PM

Nandoís maybe?

Louisa.

messageRe: June 3rd will be the last day of The Palmerston
Posted by JoeLeg February 08, 09:14PM

Abe_froeman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I cant see that site becoming flats. It is in the
> best location, has space for plenty of covers, a
> loyal local clientel and will habe no sitting
> tenant. It must be worth an absolute fortune to
> the right operator.


This is what confuses me about what Iíve been told confidentialy; although I can well imagine Enterprise Inns decideong to take it back for themselves , I canít really see a better use for that location than what it is right now.

Thereís obviously a lot more going on behind the scenes then we can tell, and I genuinely hope this location remains a quality local drinking/eating place. Unfortunately if Enterprise have taken back control theyíll probably maul it, theyíre really awful operators.

messageRe: June 3rd will be the last day of The Palmerston
Posted by JoeLeg February 08, 09:16PM

Loutwo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nandoís maybe?
>
> Louisa.


Something like that is possible. I reckon itís need deep pockets to redevelop. The more I think about it, the more I just canít see it being turned residential or retail.

messageRe: June 3rd will be the last day of The Palmerston
Posted by rendelharris February 08, 09:30PM

Actually (not saying I'd approve of this or otherwise) but surely a Pizza Express on that site would be a goldmine?

messageRe: June 3rd will be the last day of The Palmerston
Posted by reds February 08, 09:43PM

This is highly likely to stay as a pub. Enterprise inns have increasingly moved from a tenanted to a managed model over the last couple of years. Fullers are also doing this. Bermondsey pub company and frontier pubs (eg chandos in Honor Oak) are two of the 'pub groups' owned by EI under which an increasing number of their pubs are being moved.

messageRe: June 3rd will be the last day of The Palmerston
Posted by JoeLeg February 08, 10:07PM

If thatís the case then brace yourself Easy Dulwich, because whatever replaces the Palmerston will be sheeeeite!

Enterprise are pants. Utterly pants and fíing immoral.

messageRe: June 3rd will be the last day of The Palmerston
Posted by Sue February 08, 10:53PM

Abe_froeman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Youngs for instance. If they thought the Cherru
> Tree was value they would pay a fortune for the
> Palmerston.


Oh no.

Please not another Young's pub sad smiley

messageRe: June 3rd will be the last day of The Palmerston
Posted by malumbu February 09, 11:57AM

Is it likely to stay as a pub (noting I agree with comments about the Youngs/Ram chain...). If not will it be the loss of a lovely Victorian pub? If the latter I'll make enquiries my my local 'save historic pubs) person - is it unique enough to be listed?

messageRe: June 3rd will be the last day of The Palmerston
Posted by Sue February 09, 03:27PM

Maybe speak to the people who got The Ivy House listed at very short notice?

The developers who bought it weren't then able to turn it into flats (I think I've remembered that right).

As a separate issue (I think) it was then listed as an asset of community value, after which it became a community pub

I'm not suggesting in any way that anybody should go down that route with The Palmerston.
I don't think a community owned pub would work in East Dulwich.

But getting it listed might at least save it as a pub. Like The Ivy House, it seems to have an interior well worth saving

messageRe: June 3rd will be the last day of The Palmerston
Posted by anonymous_third_part February 10, 12:06AM

Not sad to see it go. Far too expensive. Last time I went in the chef's had their names printed on the menu like it was a Michelin star restaurant.

Food was OK,but cost me than central London for average stuff. Much rather go to SE15 for food now.

messageRe: June 3rd will be the last day of The Palmerston
Posted by EDOldie February 10, 10:01AM

Zebedee Tring Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Assuming that the tenant actually wanted a new
> lease, surely it would be possible for to serve a
> counter notice under the business tenancy
> provisions of the Landlord and Tenant Act 1954 (or
> whatever is the current legislation) requesting a
> new tenancy. The landlord can't just evict a
> business tenant willy nilly and would have to have
> specific grounds to do so.

I think that Jamie and his pal (Freeholders) do own the freehold but I'm guessing there is also a long lease to Enterprise Inns (Leaseholders) and a thirty year sub lease to the restaurant (Tenant). The leaseholders could oppose the granting of a new lease to the tenants on the basis that they need the premises for their own use. There are a pub company so it can't really be opposed by the tenant. So it's goodbye much loved and valued local restaurant and pub, albeit with not very good beer in it but probably not the fault of the pub as they may be tied in to buying beer from the leaseholders, and hello to another pubco in Lordship Lane. In France they have laws against this sort of thing but I expect the authorities are powerless to anything about it.

messageRe: June 3rd will be the last day of The Palmerston
Posted by EDOldie February 10, 10:20AM

DulwichFox Wrote:

> I used the Palmy for many many years before the
> Owner Reg decided to turn it into a Restaurant.
>
> The Long term much loved Tenant Landlord Keith (No
> longer with us) and his two boys were evicted.
> People lost their jobs too. A much loved busy
> local Pub was lost to make way for an expensive
> eatery for the wealthier residents of East Dulwich
> and turists.
>
>
> So NO its NOT just about me.
>
>
> DulwichFox.

Yes, but it wasn't making any money, I've used the pub since my teens and in the eighties and nineties things were changing. More people were drinking at home and the pubs had to evolve. If Reg was anything he was very foresighted and saw the writing on the wall. The Palmeston, along with Franklins, really paved the way for the Lordship Lane we know today.

messageRe: June 3rd will be the last day of The Palmerston
Posted by JoeLeg February 10, 10:51AM

EDOldie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> I think that Jamie and his pal (Freeholders) do
> own the freehold but I'm guessing there is also a
> long lease to Enterprise Inns (Leaseholders) and a
> thirty year sub lease to the restaurant (Tenant).
> The leaseholders could oppose the granting of a
> new lease to the tenants on the basis that they
> need the premises for their own use. There are a
> pub company so it can't really be opposed by the
> tenant. So it's goodbye much loved and valued
> local restaurant and pub, albeit with not very
> good beer in it but probably not the fault of the
> pub as they may be tied in to buying beer from the
> leaseholders, and hello to another pubco in
> Lordship Lane. In France they have laws against
> this sort of thing but I expect the authorities
> are powerless to anything about it.

Iím not doubting anything you say, as it sounds like you know far more about the issues concerned than I do, but Iím confused at to him someone can own a freehold but also somehow be leasing it back to Enterprise?

Surely a freehold trumps everything?

All Ďlaymanís termsí explanations welcome! Like I say, not doubting you, just clueless as to how that works legally.

messageRe: June 3rd will be the last day of The Palmerstonattachment
Posted by DulwichBorn&Bred February 10, 11:21AM

Because it was a sale and leaseback deal. Sounds rather complicated!

JoeLeg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> EDOldie Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > I think that Jamie and his pal (Freeholders) do
> > own the freehold but I'm guessing there is also
> a
> > long lease to Enterprise Inns (Leaseholders) and
> a
> > thirty year sub lease to the restaurant
> (Tenant).
> > The leaseholders could oppose the granting of a
> > new lease to the tenants on the basis that they
> > need the premises for their own use. There are
> a
> > pub company so it can't really be opposed by
> the
> > tenant. So it's goodbye much loved and valued
> > local restaurant and pub, albeit with not very
> > good beer in it but probably not the fault of
> the
> > pub as they may be tied in to buying beer from
> the
> > leaseholders, and hello to another pubco in
> > Lordship Lane. In France they have laws against
> > this sort of thing but I expect the authorities
> > are powerless to anything about it.
>
> Iím not doubting anything you say, as it sounds
> like you know far more about the issues concerned
> than I do, but Iím confused at to him someone can
> own a freehold but also somehow be leasing it back
> to Enterprise?
>
> Surely a freehold trumps everything?
>
> All Ďlaymanís termsí explanations welcome! Like I
> say, not doubting you, just clueless as to how
> that works legally.

Attachments: A2A7A4DB-BF83-4B51-B151-480C1B03CADB.png (141.6KB)  
messageRe: June 3rd will be the last day of The Palmerston
Posted by cella February 10, 11:51AM

JoeLeg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> EDOldie Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > I think that Jamie and his pal (Freeholders) do
> > own the freehold but I'm guessing there is also
> a
> > long lease to Enterprise Inns (Leaseholders) and
> a
> > thirty year sub lease to the restaurant
> (Tenant).
> > The leaseholders could oppose the granting of a
> > new lease to the tenants on the basis that they
> > need the premises for their own use. There are
> a
> > pub company so it can't really be opposed by
> the
> > tenant. So it's goodbye much loved and valued
> > local restaurant and pub, albeit with not very
> > good beer in it but probably not the fault of
> the
> > pub as they may be tied in to buying beer from
> the
> > leaseholders, and hello to another pubco in
> > Lordship Lane. In France they have laws against
> > this sort of thing but I expect the authorities
> > are powerless to anything about it.
>
> Iím not doubting anything you say, as it sounds
> like you know far more about the issues concerned
> than I do, but Iím confused at to him someone can
> own a freehold but also somehow be leasing it back
> to Enterprise?
>
> Surely a freehold trumps everything?
>
> All Ďlaymanís termsí explanations welcome! Like I
> say, not doubting you, just clueless as to how
> that works legally.


Suppose it's a bit like owning the freehold on your flat - you still have to go by the lease requirements.

messageRe: June 3rd will be the last day of The Palmerston
Posted by mrwb February 10, 11:53AM

Does seem a very odd situation and also that it will stay a pub?

Article from above post is here:

[www.morningadvertiser.co.uk]

messageRe: June 3rd will be the last day of The Palmerston
Posted by Sue February 10, 12:58PM

EDOldie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> DulwichFox Wrote:
>
> > I used the Palmy for many many years before the
> > Owner Reg decided to turn it into a Restaurant.
> >
> > The Long term much loved Tenant Landlord Keith
> (No
> > longer with us) and his two boys were evicted.
> > People lost their jobs too. A much loved busy
> > local Pub was lost to make way for an expensive
>
> > eatery for the wealthier residents of East
> Dulwich
> > and turists.
> >
> >
> > So NO its NOT just about me.
> >
> >
> > DulwichFox.
>
> Yes, but it wasn't making any money, I've used the
> pub since my teens and in the eighties and
> nineties things were changing. More people were
> drinking at home and the pubs had to evolve. If
> Reg was anything he was very foresighted and saw
> the writing on the wall. The Palmeston, along with
> Franklins, really paved the way for the Lordship
> Lane we know today.


Agreed, EDOldie.

The Lord Palmerston could not have stayed as it was in the location it was given the changing demographic of the area.

The pub changed at a time when so called gastropubs were becoming (or already were) a thing.

I remember friends of mine from outside the area being really keen to come to ED specifically to go to The Palmerston.

ETA: And they were by no means "posh".



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was february 10, 01:00pm by Sue.

messageRe: June 3rd will be the last day of The Palmerston
Posted by DulwichBorn&Bred February 10, 07:31PM


messageRe: June 3rd will be the last day of The Palmerston
Posted by Jellybeanz February 13, 01:06PM

This is a real shame and will be a big loss to the area. Another business closure, esp unexpected after huge kitchen revamp!

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