When and why did ED become so poncey?

[krosfyah]

Hi there!!!!

Just found this forum, interesting little place.

This has been puzzling me for a while. I lived in Loughborough Junction from 2001 (being a north Londoner before that)before moving to E Dulwich area in 2003. I have known the SE21, SE22, SE24 and SE5 area pretty well in that time, however I can't seem to remember when it happened, and have no idea why, but what the heck has happened to ED? It's full of poncey mums in their ?500 push chairs sipping lattes and young student-look-a-likes who dress in rags and then drop money on champage at the EDT and snap up ?250k 1 bed flats somehow. What has happened to the place that changed it into a nothing sort of place, into a mini-Hampstead village full of ponces in their Selfridges designer tshirts? I haven't been out much in ED over the years but i defnitely remember it wasn't like this a few years back. What the heck has happened and what caused it?

I'm not bitter, just genuinely confused as to how and why this has happened.

Cheerio!

[Dodo1]

Oh.. you're asking for trouble!!

[Parker's Folly]

This has been rehashed on here a number of times.

If you want to know the answers, speak to residents of Notting Hill, Fulham, Hoxton & Shoreditch, etc. It's called gentrificationm and is a fact of life, anywhere in the developed world.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

Just out of curiosity where exactly is the developed world? Developed in what? And how did gentrification become a fact of life, have they bred so fast they now outnumber ordinary folk, or are ordinary folk being gentrified and subsumed into their amorphous population?

[SeanMacGabhann]

I think the extact date can be pinpointed to when CWALD didn't have ALD and decided to get one

[mockney piers]

Don't do it CWALD, the wriggly worm may look plump, appetising and nutritious, but it's attached to a hook, and that's attached to a reel!!

[Brendan]

Yeah they start using words like subsumed and amorphous and next thing you know it's all 4X4s and 18 year olds with gold cards.

;-) Just kidding there CWLD don't take me seriously.

[James]

"young student-look-a-likes who dress in rags and then drop money on champage at the EDT and snap up ?250k 1 bed flats somehow"

Mummy and Daddy come in handy, don't they?

[pk]

It?s not such a terrible question tho is it? There?s a lot of ?ponciness? in ED and even some on this board ? looking at the active threads today ? there?s a lot of ?there?s f*** all in Peckham that?s any good, we want ?nice? things? whereas actually the reason e.g. Rye Lane is so busy and ?smelly? is that it?s an important street for many of the residents of SE15, where they get what they need. No it isn?t LL but lots of locals don?t want it to be ? they want and need e.g. afro hairdressers and ?smelly? food shops

There?s also moaning about regular pubs, buses, boots sandwiches (which are all common in many ?normal? peoples? lives) and four pages about the failure of a local bar to satisfy a customer?s off the menu order

The word in the thread title is ?poncey? but may be it could just as easily been ?snobby??

It really wasn?t like this when I first lived in the area and I reckon that someone was right up the thread what?s happened in gentrification, not regeneration

gentrify

verb

to change a place from being a poor area to a richer one, by people of a higher social class moving to live there:

The area where I grew up has been all modernized and gentrified, and has lost all its old character.

regenerate (IMPROVE)

verb

to improve a place or system, especially by making it more active or successful

[Mark]

Your tone comes across as derogatory to the place you've lived in for four years which confuses me slightly, are you saying you don't like East Dulwich now?

[rob]

I've lived here since early 2001 and I think it's much better for the ponciness, whatever form it may appear in. Great bars, great restaurants, good food, lovely park, lovely neighbours (of the young AND old variety) - what's not to like?

[krosfyah]

pk you hit the nail on the head son. I live and work in this area and have for 6 years. A work colleague is a 35 year old veteran of Peckham. When people talk about the "regeneration" of the area, it makes him and i laugh (and i haven't been around anywhere near as long as he has in this area). It's blatant gentrification disguised as regeneration, and it is pretty bad all in all with those who have spent decade after decade, living, growing roots and enjoying what the community has built, being able to afford to live in an area that serves their needs well, suddenly being driven out by 23 year olds, living off the bank of mum and dad, wanting to be in the next "up and coming", hipster hang out, amazed there isn't yet a Starbucks on the corner, but glad they atleast have their GBK.

Have i added to the problem of gentrification? I don't know. I'm not a born and bred SE5'er but this is where i'm based now. The thing is, i figure i moved here in 2001, so it was largely before places like ED were what they are today. But did i help bring on the "yumminess" of the whole thing? Sometimes i can't help but feel much as i blast the hell out of the people who have sprung up and their ponce-ified lifestyle, that i might have got the snowball rolling so to speak.

pk you make some good points, and i respect your opinion - what do you think about this last point?

[Jah Lush]

I'd go for the regeneration verb PK. I've lived in Dulwich all my life and I like the improvements. I'm certainly not complaining. The bars are better and so are most of the restaurants, there's certainly more choice. OK, there are a few "poncy" shops selling cak I'll grant you that but times change, places change, people change, get used to it PK. If you don't like it move...oh! I see you already have.

[krosfyah]

I do feel that the place is overtly smacking of poncey gentrification, with middle class yumminess and the sort of thing i specifically wanted to avoid by not living in Dulwich Village environs when i first moved here.

When i moved here, there was an edginess to the place that was vibrant, alive and all consuming. Now it's all about consuming overpriced beer and food, an estate agent for every shop, poncey new developments that are pricing up the whole area making it hard or impossible for first time buyers to move into what was once not long ago a very affordable area and general "oh yah dahling, lets kit cosmo out in that wonderful eco-hemp outfit and go for a stroll on The Lane, while sipping Starbucks and clucking our tongues at anyone who doesn't meet my every whim and need".

It's really going up it's own arse, something i saw in North London and specifically came south of the river to get away from. And judging by some of the responses on this thread, it's not hard to see the gentrification process has worked a treat.

[MadWorld74]

Boots sandwiches? people ordering off the menu? whatever next? How dare some be so bloody poncy!

[*Bob*]

Yeah man, the place used to be so wicked, edgy, vibrant, kickin' and downright cool..

translation

If only I'd bought a flat here a few years back for tuppence I wouldn't be so miffed about not being able to afford one now.

[Jah Lush]

Yeah LOL Bob, nothing worse than some silly old fart moaning about how it was so much better in the old days.

[SeanMacGabhann]

I know instinctively I shouldn't post a reply to this but such is the day

This theme keeps cropping up on these boards again and again and is invariably self-defeating

Krosfyah's initial post was a valid enough question - however

Many of us have lived here pre "ponceyness" (in itself a word which gives a lot away)

If anyone is worried that ED is becoming "poncey"fied and Peckham more real, then I think I see a solution for them....

The place is not full of "poncey mums in their ?500 push chairs sipping lattes and young student-look-a-likes who dress in rags and then drop money on champage at the EDT " - it just has several visible ones. As a section of society they are no better or worse than any other , rich or poor, working class or not. Some are diamonds, some are pains, and the rest are dull.... Same as you will find in any other group

But I will get upset with anyone who sits in their garret, ivory-tower, council-house, mansion or whatever and pre-judges a whole group of people just because they ain't one of you....

No-one has to buy champagne in the EDT but if they want to, let them. If you fancy a simple pint of beer then you can do that too. Does beer cost more than some of the old places? Yes - why? Because those places could no longer afford to stay open... No conspiracy to drive anyone out there..

PK - your comment:

"there?s a lot of ?there?s f*** all in Peckham that?s any good, we want ?nice? things? There?s also moaning about regular pubs, buses, boots sandwiches (which are all common in many ?normal? peoples? lives) and four pages about the failure of a local bar to satisfy a customer?s off the menu order"

distorts the threads in question

The 4 pages of reply to customer service thread deviated from the initial point to cover a lot of other ground. And for every anti-Peckham statement you will find a pro-statement

A number of chip-shops have been discussed on these boards but the quality of the produce doesn't begin to compare to that balancing on some shoulders

(I saw the dangling fruit and I bit.... I am now going to go hang my head in shame)

[mockney piers]

It never seems to occur to the any of those on the conveyor belt of change detractors that it's actually the country that's changing.

There's not some balance book of ponceyness with some areas waxing with this strange intangible quality, causing other areas to wane.

If I head back to Letchworth or to Stoke or any other place I've stumbled through in my life, then Coffee shops and and tat has exploded everywhere.

Incomes have risen 24% in real terms since the 70s, disposable incomes by 94%. It's all brought about by cash, and that's everyone, your local lad still living with is mum til he's 30, or the out of town lad who has to borrow from parents for the deposit rather than live rent free.

World changing...wwwooOOOOOooooooOOOOooooo who'd have thought it eh.

Right, where's my flares, I'm off to listen to some Wolfmother.

Doh!!!

*edited for unforgivable plural apostrophe's*

*edited again to add that also hanging head in shame at having bit, despite advice to CWALD no to*

[Brendan]

hook, line and sinker.

[Jah Lush]

Don't hang your head in shame Sean...as usual you are spot on. A perfect riposte.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Cheers Jah - as a born and bread ED'er yourself I appreciate the comment. Careful tho or we will be labelled a back-slapping clique (even tho I've only met you once )

[Marmora Man]

krosfyah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I do feel that the place is overtly smacking of

> poncey gentrification, with middle class yumminess

> and the sort of thing i specifically wanted to

> avoid by not living in Dulwich Village environs

> when i first moved here.

>

> When i moved here, there was an edginess to the

> place that was vibrant, alive and all consuming.

> Now it's all about consuming overpriced beer and

> food, an estate agent for every shop, poncey new

> developments that are pricing up the whole area

> making it hard or impossible for first time buyers

> to move into what was once not long ago a very

> affordable area and general "oh yah dahling, lets

> kit cosmo out in that wonderful eco-hemp outfit

> and go for a stroll on The Lane, while sipping

> Starbucks and clucking our tongues at anyone who

> doesn't meet my every whim and need".

>

> It's really going up it's own arse, something i

> saw in North London and specifically came south of

> the river to get away from. And judging by some of

> the responses on this thread, it's not hard to see

> the gentrification process has worked a treat.

I'm confused - you apparently moved to an area, that in 2001, had lousy bars, no decent restaurants and scruffy shops.

Now that same area has some good things - half a dozen eateries that are both affordable and enjoyable, a bunch of good drinking establishments to suit all tastes (see recent thread about CPT and pubs in general) and some halway decent shops. What have you lost?? Which shop / establishment / service has closed down or become worse over the last 6 years?

I've been living here just 3 years - found ED when searching for an affordable house large enough for teeanage family and two elderly parents-in-law to all live together. All I can see are the good things that have always been here - Peckham Rye & park, Brockwell Lido (not quite ED but close), the views from One Tree Hill, short journey times to London, Old Camberwell Cemetry to walk around, the more recent arrivals (within last 10[?] years) such as Cheese Block, Pretty Traditional green grocers, Uplands Road Saturday market, the DIY shop on LL, together with other recent improvements - The Bishop beats it predecessor hands down,the Black Cherry, Green & Blue, the EDF where we can all rant & rave. Some of these initiatives have brought employment and opportunity to the area and its residents.

Having to put up with the occassional buggy seems an OK trade off to me. However, if it's too much there must still be some suitably scruffy and downbeat areas left elsewhere in London. I was in Whitechapel yesterday, visiting the London Hospital, - not at all poncey, very edgy.

Having said all of that - gentrification has its dangers. Not in having to live with poncey shops & people but in reverse ghetto"isation" where instead of everyone rubbing along together in a great mix of race, class, wealth and so on the least well off get pushed further and further out. Affordable housing, social housing for central London and its environs must be supported and Nimbyism rejected

[MadWorld74]

SeanyMac do you want to summarise your thoughts in one sentance, nice and sweet for those of us (me) who are too bleary eyed at the end of the day to be able to grasp what the hell just happened in your previous 24 line thread. :-$

[Bleep]

I find the whole "it's so middle-class" moaning so utterly tedious. So what?