Forum Sponsors

www.shearwatershutters.co.uk

www.hartbeeps.com

www.electricalinitiative.co.uk

Advertise here


The East Dulwich Forum
Which pubs, bars, restaurants and take-aways do you avoid?
Goto Page: 12Next
Current Page: 1 of 2
messageIf Alleyns doesn't take local kids whats it for apart from ruining Dulwich?
Posted by Hagrid 29 February, 2012 23:44

I live quite close to Alleyns. Thirty years ago when I moved here the majority of students were local to the area indeed many were funded by Southwark Council. This meant we put up with disruption as we knew many of the students and felt that the school contributed to the local area etc., However, over the last few years it is obvious both by increased parking, buses coming in from Wimbledon, North London etc (just check the signs on the front of the buses)., and conversations with local people whose kids weren't accepted that Alleyns (an educational foundation set up to help the local community) has moved a long way away from it original premise.

Therefore can I ask why:

Are buses allowed to park throughout Towney road at any time?
Why are students and teachers who obviously don't live local allowed to park in the surrounding streets? Towney, Dovercourt, Beauval? (eg Why are they introducing parking restrictions around ed station when more people park at Allenys?)
Do we put up with gridlocked traffic, double parked cars during school times?

Dulwich College and Jags do quite a lot of work with the local community. I am struggling to think of anything that Alleyns has produced or contributed to the local area apart from traffic, swine flu, a helicopter once a year and appalling mismatched building design (eg if you have ever been refused planning permission for a loft check out Alleyns wtf?).

Why are we putting up with this? Should the council pressure them to do more for the local community eg giving more local places, free up resources.?

Thats my whinge for the day...

messageRe: If Alleyns doesn't take local kids whats it for apart from ruining Dulwich?
Posted by Pugwash 01 March, 2012 01:08

The cessation of the assisted place scheme which was in place until about 15-20 years ago by the Government reduced the number of local kids who were bright enough to attend Alleyns, so obviously the school had to cast a wider net. In the 60s hubby won a place at Alleyns and at Dulwich College - he lived at Tulse Hill. In the end he went to St. Jospeph's in Croydon. Kids at St. Dunstans in Catford travel from all over the place. Money has no local authority boundaries.

As far as I am aware, the Alleyn kids do alot of work with Dulwich Helpline.

You might as well say that teachers must teach at the schools in the area where they live and not travel. Many people have to travel to work and for some, driving is the only means of getting there.

messageRe: If Alleyns doesn't take local kids whats it for apart from ruining Dulwich?
Posted by silverfox 01 March, 2012 07:40

If my daughter gets into Alleyns it will be the best school in Britain etc.

If she doesn't it'll be a crap school and I'll be so glad I never sent her there to mix with those eczema-afflicted middle class spoilt brats etc.

messageRe: If Alleyns doesn't take local kids whats it for apart from ruining Dulwich?
Posted by PlayfieldCresRes 01 March, 2012 08:58

Not quite sure why my last post was deleted? I'll try to put my point across a little more eloquently.

Hagrid, given this subject has been discussed on many occasions over the years, have you tried talking to the School about your concerns rather than just moaning on here? (Hence the 'yawn' in my previous post.)

For example on Sunday my neighbour's daughter took part in a fundraiser for the Charlotte Leatherbarrow Foundation (the poor girl knocked over by a bus in Herne Hill) this took place in the Alleyn's theatre - as far as I am aware this 'resource' was given to the Charity by the School, without them doing so the event wouldn't have gone ahead...

messageRe: If Alleyns doesn't take local kids whats it for apart from ruining Dulwich?
Posted by Townleygreen 01 March, 2012 09:36

Just a couple of factual corrections might be in order to Hagrid's post.
Southwark has never paid for any places at Alleyns. It is true that the old ILEA did so (at DC and others also) till about 1970.
Although there are lots of coaches that go off to Blackheath, Bromley, Wandsworth, Tooting etc etc these only take about 50 each, and nearly all are shared with DC and JAGS, so they may park at Alleyns, but they also serve JAGs and sometimes DC.
Most pupils do in fact come from the local postcodes, such as SE21 SE22 SE24 SE5 SE23 SE27 SE19 SW2.

messageRe: If Alleyns doesn't take local kids whats it for apart from ruining Dulwich?
Posted by Monkey 01 March, 2012 10:09

I am getting a bit annoyed with people complaining about schools and nurseries (see the Piplings thread) And actually when it comes to Alleyn's, the school is based in extensive grounds so nuisance must be minimal. It has also been there for years and years. If you don't like it, then don't live it near it.

messageRe: If Alleyns doesn't take local kids whats it for apart from ruining Dulwich?
Posted by Penguin68 01 March, 2012 10:18

In fact, as has been pointed out, Alleyn's provides education to many children in local postcodes, and it e.g. closed its subscription sports club so that the its sports facilities could be used by local clubs addressing a different demographic.

Even if that wasn't so, the Royston Vasey tendancy ('local roads for local people') shown here is both socially and economically upsetting. Do we want businesses in Dulwich only to cater for Dulwich customers? Maybe bringing customers from outside ED would be good economics? Maybe welcoming people who don't live in the next street would be a good thing.

This is the way gangs think - 'keep off our turf, we are the ED Crew, the ED Massive' - we saw this in the arguments about 'foreigners' coming in and parking in 'our' streets during the extended controlled parking debate, indeed some people used this concept of 'us' and 'them' to raise support for a CPZ in a thoroughly divisive manner.

If there are logistical problems about traffic at particular times these need addressing in a way which isn't about 'lose the foreigners and we lose the problem'.

If Alleyn's was any other sort of business would you be arguing that they should be giving free stuff to locals - as some sort of protection tax to avoid trouble?

And those who locally pay taxes which include an education precept and then don't use the education services but pay (twice) for their children's education are allowing more money to go to those who rely on the state to educate their children. Or do you want to reduce the amount of money available per capita for education - maybe that's part of 'what Alleyn's does for us' as well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2012:03:01:11:56:57 by Penguin68.

messageRe: If Alleyns doesn't take local kids whats it for apart from ruining Dulwich?
Posted by Fenton 01 March, 2012 11:59

Isn't the history of Dulwich founded on Education and schools!
It's probably one of the main reason for rise in the local economy,
i.e. people moving to the area with enough money to send their kids to
the schools concerned.
It really gets on my goat when people complain about schools and the impact they
have on a local community. It is often a school that defines the community.
They have most likely been around longer than any local resident.
And we need schools. They represent the future of our country and we should
do everything we can to encourage them.
OK we get yummy mummies in their stupid Chelsea tractors who often don't give a f***
about other drivers on the road.
But the council does not help by sticking in double yellows around
the schools, pushing those who have to drive around in circles trying to find a spot on a residential
street (although I have an inkling it is actually an income generator rather than traffic calming measure).

messageRe: If Alleyns doesn't take local kids whats it for apart from ruining Dulwich?
Posted by grabot 01 March, 2012 13:14

It's funny it's not so much the school that winds me up as the Dulwich Estate. The Dulwich estate appears to me a gravy train that provides very little social utility relative to its forcibly gained income. The Dulwich estate permits Alleyn's to build a theatre which is architecturally disingenuous, but expects the rest of us to beg and grovel for permission to install double glazing. At the same time the Dulwich estate proudly boasts about its genesis in the form of Alleyn's altruistic effort to provide education for the poor. Poor old Alleyn must be turning in his grave. His gesture has morphed into a bastion of privilege and wealth with beneficiaries that include a very well funded and very exclusive schools and a number of very well paid jobs for the guardians of this privilege; why on earth does the Dulwich Estate have an employee earning over 120,000?

Still yah boo to Alleyn's, it has a symbiotic relationship with the parasitical Dulwich Estate. A parasite feeding off a parasite.


Edit***Corrected a couple of spelling errors.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2012:03:01:13:17:11 by grabot.

messageRe: If Alleyns doesn't take local kids whats it for apart from ruining Dulwich?
Posted by BrandNewGuy 01 March, 2012 13:49

According to wikipedia, the Estate distributed 5.49m from its income and 20m in capital in 2005-6, so it's not surprising that they have someone earning more than 120,000 if they handle those sorts of sums.

Always tickled that Alleyn's wealth came not just from the theatre, but also bear-pits and brothels. I see him as an entrepreneurial hybrid of Bill Kenwright, Paul Raymond and Edmund Blackadder...

messageRe: If Alleyns doesn't take local kids whats it for apart from ruining Dulwich?
Posted by grabot 01 March, 2012 14:01

The distribution hardly looks difficult n% to that n% to the other. I am happy to offer that service for 15,000 a year. I don't really understand the concept that if n pounds pass through my control, my salary should be n/100 or whatever. Surely salary should be dictated by the complexity of the task and the availability of people to do that task. If I am just going to act as a conduit for funds, I struggle to see the complexity of that role. By your token, the various settlement banks in London would employ the richest people in the world by a colossal margin.

But I agree with your point. Alleyn was a degenerate. The Dulwich Estate is degenerate and Alleyn's is degenerate. You have a good way with a metaphor BrandNewGuywinking smiley

messageRe: If Alleyns doesn't take local kids whats it for apart from ruining Dulwich?
Posted by MrBen 01 March, 2012 14:21

The only vaguely valid point I can pull out of the OP's rambling chip-on-shoulder rant is "Alleyns could do more for the community" which perhaps they could, but then couldn't we all?

Parking? Perhaps it's a minor problem for about 30 minutes twice a day. For the rest of the time this is one of the quietest streets parking wise in East Dulwich.

The OP sounds like the kind of person who'd shake a fist at the postman for leaving the front gate open or yell at their neighbours for leaving their bins out. I find their self-righteous NIMBY attitude more annoying than any school.

messageRe: If Alleyns doesn't take local kids whats it for apart from ruining Dulwich?
Posted by grabot 01 March, 2012 15:24

"The only vaguely valid point I can pull out of the OP's rambling chip-on-shoulder rant is "Alleyns could do more for the community" which perhaps they could, but then couldn't we all?"

Perhaps I could do more. Money's tight though. Now if Dulwich Estate were to give me 1,458,000, I would certainly dig deep. Give and take and all that...

messageRe: If Alleyns doesn't take local kids whats it for apart from ruining Dulwich?
Posted by MrBen 02 March, 2012 14:06

grabot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Perhaps I could do more. Money's tight though.
> Now if Dulwich Estate were to give me 1,458,000,
> I would certainly dig deep. Give and take and all
> that...

If Dulwich estate were to give you 1.5 mil and said go run a school with minimal public fund support then I think you'd find it would go pretty quickly, even with fee income. And when it comes to "community", giving time and your day to day interactions in the space around you can have more impact than money...but let's moan about a non existing parking problem, and rich kids instead.

I'm not defending Alleyns or the Dulwich Estate (which has many non-progressive policies that don't stack up) but without this legacy (quality schools, green parks /space, managed woods, sympathetic planning etc) Dulwich would just be another average part of SE London.

messageRe: If Alleyns doesn't take local kids whats it for apart from ruining Dulwich?
Posted by the-e-dealer 02 March, 2012 15:53

Its for Rich posh people isnt it?

--------------------
Nor do I

messageRe: If Alleyns doesn't take local kids whats it for apart from ruining Dulwich?
Posted by MrBen 02 March, 2012 16:07

The last time I looked, Dulwich Park and woods were being used by everyone as a genuine local amenity. If you want to debate the existence of private education..... that's another whole debate and it goes way beyond Dulwich.

Like it or not, the schools come with the Dulwich estate package/legacy and I would argue their wider impact on the area is more beneficial than detrimental.

messageRe: If Alleyns doesn't take local kids whats it for apart from ruining Dulwich?
Posted by the-e-dealer 02 March, 2012 16:22

Ok its for rich posh Kids and so we have a park.

--------------------
Nor do I

messageRe: If Alleyns doesn't take local kids whats it for apart from ruining Dulwich?
Posted by Penguin68 02 March, 2012 16:23

Its for Rich posh people isnt it?

And your point would be..?

messageRe: If Alleyns doesn't take local kids whats it for apart from ruining Dulwich?
Posted by the-e-dealer 02 March, 2012 16:25

I just answered the Question. Is that ok?

--------------------
Nor do I

messageRe: If Alleyns doesn't take local kids whats it for apart from ruining Dulwich?
Posted by grabot 02 March, 2012 16:34

If Dulwich Estate were to give me 1.5 million and ask me to run a non-fee paying Dulwich branch of Stringfellows, I'm sure it would go pretty quickly too. Your point about social utility being? Still no pointing in ranting about it. Rich posh people group together, control resources and throw a few crumbs to the proles while reminding us that we really could do more to help each other. I guess that that is society in a microcosm. I just find it irritating when it is masked by self righteous "charitable" rhetoric.

messageRe: If Alleyns doesn't take local kids whats it for apart from ruining Dulwich?
Posted by Townleygreen 02 March, 2012 17:46

Alleyns used to be the main boys' grammar school for E Dulwich until 1976 when the then new Labour government abolished the direct grant (which meant anyone could have a place so long as they passed the 11+; if their income was too low, they paid nothing at all; there was a national sliding scale of fees).

The school had no desire to become fee paying, but that was forced upon it. And I believe that the current chairman of governors has the ultimate aim of making the school once again free to those whose incomes are below a certain level. That cannot be achieved overnight - of course - but it is a fine aim which many in the area might benefit from if they wished, one day.

The income from the Dulwich estates (sic) is shared between DC, JAGs, Alleyns, St Olaves and a few other schools, according to Edward Alleyn's original (modified) bequest.

messageRe: If Alleyns doesn't take local kids whats it for apart from ruining Dulwich?
Posted by uncleglen 03 March, 2012 18:07

My youngest son is 28 and was fortunate enough to gain a Government assisted place at Dulwich College under Margaret Thatcher's Government; he was the last of the batch before the Blair Government removed it. His siblings attended Alleyn's under the same scheme. At the time Southwark Council (Labour controlled) were using education as a political football and the local comps bore no resemblance to any educational establishment that I could recognise,(having myself been educated in a grammar school in the east end). One head of a school in a neighbouring borough made a point of boasting to prospective parents, that her school offered Turkish GCSE and had a 100% pass rate (not surprising since all 6 entrants were Turkish nationals). Where was Latin? Pupils at Alleyn's who did the Duke of Edinburgh's Award had the option of community service in the area, which some did in old peoples' homes.
A teacher friend (who sent her son to a comp) asked me every week if I regretted sending my children 'private', and since I was a teacher myself and doing supply work at the time in many different schools, and listening to horror stories from staff,could quite emphatically say that every day I was convinced I had done the right thing, and still am. The scheme was means tested so we contributed, to the extent that we could not afford luxuries or holidays other than camping in the UK.

messageRe: If Alleyns doesn't take local kids whats it for apart from ruining Dulwich?
Posted by Amelie 03 March, 2012 18:23

Edward Alleyn was not a degenerate, he was merely typical of his time.

His bequest was not modified, his will was broken under statute by the Charity Commission because its effect had become to produce an ever-increasing fund which the will as drafted did not permit the trustees to spend. Alleyn's School was created as a direct result of the Charity Commission's action.

The intake of the Edward Alleyn Foundation schools has always been wide-ranging geographically speaking, they also have long-standing arrangements for efficient swapping of pupils from e.g. St Paul's and Marlborough.

The coach parking is a problem which the school could do more than it does at the moment to address, telling teachers who like the pupils come from areas some distance away that they cannot park in the streets around the school is unreasonable and unkind.

messageRe: If Alleyns doesn't take local kids whats it for apart from ruining Dulwich?
Posted by grabot 03 March, 2012 20:24

"Edward Alleyn was not a degenerate, he was merely typical of his time."

I am not too sure about that. I am uneducated and lack a knowledge of history. But, when did protestantism and puratinism rise? Anyhoo, this is a non-sequitor.

I genuinely appreciated TownleyGreen's comment that the governers hope to offer more free places in the future. I think that could be universally beneficial, not just for those who get the places, but the staff and students at Alleyns. When that happens Alleyns will certainly go up in my estimation!

messageRe: If Alleyns doesn't take local kids whats it for apart from ruining Dulwich?
Posted by dulwichgirl2 04 March, 2012 18:36

Uncleglen, excellent scheme and a shame it was ended. I have no idea of the rationale for ending it... Children from poorer families got a chance they would not otherwise have had??? Errr isn't that a great thing? Your children were extremely lucky and you did absolutely the right thing for them. I am astonished that colleagues might ask whether you regretted the choice. Bonkers.

Incidentally, you are quite right- private schools have cornered the market in formal education. Forget Latin - I mean basic English!

messageRe: If Alleyns doesn't take local kids whats it for apart from ruining Dulwich?
Posted by Townleygreen 05 March, 2012 10:41

dulwichgirl2,

the Assisted Place scheme was ended by Tony Blair's government (1997 on) I am afraid.

messageRe: If Alleyns doesn't take local kids whats it for apart from ruining Dulwich?
Posted by uncleglen 08 March, 2012 21:50

dulwichgirl2-I would imagine Labour politicians perceived the Assisted Places scheme as a worse evil than grammar schools! Amongst socialists (those that I know,anyway) there was a consensus that their taxes should not be used to subsidise public schools.

messageRe: If Alleyns doesn't take local kids whats it for apart from ruining Dulwich?
Posted by westof 09 March, 2012 16:37

A friend's son got an assisted place (or maybe a scholarship, not sure) to Dulwich in 1996, which must have been one of the last places if it was an assisted one.

I wasn't a parent then, hadn't heard of Dulwich College & wasn't aware of quite what an achievement it was for his son to get the place (they could never have afforded it without the means testing) - but I do remember that back then London state schools were generally held to be dreadful places & I pretty much assumed I'd end up moving out of London when I had children, even though I love the place.

The Evening Standard is now reporting that state schools in London are the best state schools in the country. I'm very glad that aspect has changed at least, though I expect it was investment in general that had the main effect, and abolishing the assisted places was just a drop in the ocean.

Still, most private schools do seem to have managed to find ways of running their own means-tested schemes even without government help, which is great for the children that can still benefit from that kind of education.

messageRe: If Alleyns doesn't take local kids whats it for apart from ruining Dulwich?
Posted by westof 09 March, 2012 16:46

Townleygreen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The school had no desire to become fee paying, but
> that was forced upon it. And I believe that the
> current chairman of governors has the ultimate aim
> of making the school once again free to those
> whose incomes are below a certain level. That
> cannot be achieved overnight - of course - but it
> is a fine aim which many in the area might benefit
> from if they wished, one day.
>
> The income from the Dulwich estates (sic) is
> shared between DC, JAGs, Alleyns, St Olaves and a
> few other schools, according to Edward Alleyn's
> original (modified) bequest.

That's really interesting (the history and the future aims), and AFAIK the other schools in the Dulwich Foundation (or whatever it's called) are state schools in East London?

messageRe: If Alleyns doesn't take local kids whats it for apart from ruining Dulwich?
Posted by Townleygreen 10 March, 2012 14:38

westof asked
Quote:
That's really interesting (the history and the future aims), and AFAIK the other schools in the Dulwich Foundation (or whatever it's called) are state schools in East London?

Yes I believe that is correct, but I don't know their current names.

Goto Page: 12Next
Current Page: 1 of 2

Back to top of page
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
Donate                   Terms of use                  Help & FAQs                   Advertise               RSS rss feed