No I totally disagree emilydrab, one of my dogs is dog aggressive and has high chase instinct when it comes to squirrels and cats but with humans the most docile dog you could ever meet and leaves children/babies well alone. I have had toddlers toddling around my living room and if approached by them he just ignores them. My nephew who is a bit older runs and yes I can see my male dog want to chase and if allowed to play he will chase but never jump up however if I was to let him off lead in a park he would chase any animal that moves and probably shake! But don't worry that never happens, 1: we are on top of this and using a behaviourist and 2: he is on a lead.

Marie81 well all dogs are different, and glad to hear yours is under control when you are out. But dogs can and do attack children and babies and there's no reason to say a dog who is not trained and not under control definitely won't. In my dog's case when he was attacked he wasn't running, he wasn't chased, he was on a lead. The dog just came up and pounced on him. Obviously you know your dog and know he is trustworthy with children, but there's no reason to think this Blue dog would be the same. Anyway, my general point is that dogs who are aggressive and in the case of poor Morph have actually killed another dog, should not just be asked politely to wear a muzzle, it's time for more drastic police action.

Hi emilydrab, I agree dogs can and do attack humans I just thought your previous comment that dogs that have dog aggression are then going to go on and attack a child dramatic and likely to cause scaremongering amongst the parents on EDF. My other dog has also been attacked a few times whilst on a lead by a dog just running over and turning on her without being provoked, the last dog that attacked her was a Cocker Spaniel. I can’t speak for Blue and yes he could be a danger to humans for all I know I just don’t think all dog aggressive dogs should be tarred with the same brush. Yes of course police action should be brought and Blue shouldn’t just be muzzled but put into a training programme to get to the source of his aggression aswell and to educate the owner.

Has anyone let James Barber know? I think he may be able to help.

hi Trish,

So so sorry to hear about this tragic story, thank you for putting up all the details as well as the intricacies of the attack. The fact that it happened through play and a seeming accident only makes it even more sad and it definitely serves as a caution for dog owners like myself as I know I can get quite relaxed with dogs meeting my dog in the park and tend to think that if dogs are off the lead then they must be socialized.

I just wanted to say if you are looking for free legal advice, you can go to your local Citizens Advice Bureau and see / get help from a lawyer for free.

Best,
Bea

Sorry to hear the sad news.
Upto a few years ago we had rescued greyhounds. Docile and good with children, when out in the park or street they
would lung at cats and sometimes other dogs. For this reason we always had them muzzled as a precaution. people asked if they were dangerous animals, they were not but we would rather be safe than sorry just in case they injured another animal.

If 'Blue's' owner was sorry - I suggest he fork out the £300 vets fees.

I'm not sure how James Barber could help?

Simple measures would include the requirement that all dogs are always walked on lead on the street. I still cannot understand why this is not implemented as the only people I ever see walking dog off lead are young bull breed owners of a certain type.

In the park there should be certain sections where dogs are kept on lead. This would give people (both dog-woning and non dog owning) the opportunity to avoid other offlead dogs if they want. I note that some dog owners are still letting their dogs off in the Japanese Garden, where there are notices quite clearly asking owners to keep dogs on a lead. Why?

At entrances to parks and around the cafe area dogs should be kept on a lead. I frequently see dogs meandering off lead around the cafe and owners letting their dogs off at the narrow passageway past the toilets.

If you see a dog on the lead in a park don't let your dog go bounding up to it- this is bad manners, bad practice and can cause problems. If you are unable to call your dog away then you need to go back to training classes until you can.

Dogs need to be well socialised and allowed to play together but where there is a mssive differtence in size and strength it is not hard to see how problems can develop. All play should be carefully supervised and stopped if it looks to be getting OTT.

It is important to make a distinction between 'spats'- which will happen between dogs and are generally all about display and warnings and 'attacks' where puncture wounds are left.Nonetheless, you do not want a tiny dog getting into a 'spat' with a very large dog because there is the possibility that the smaller dog feels overwhelmed and becomes aggressive. The smaller dog starts to dislike larger dogs and then possibly all dogs. If you have a large dog, try to consider the smaller dog owner a bit more.

Prey drive is a different issue and involves different neural pathways to other types of aggression which tend to develop out of fear. Dogs that play in a very pushy way and use their teeth a lot, delivering nips while chasing should be monitored and have their chase instinct redirected. Owners of these kinds of dogs need to train around different outlets for prey drive. Don't let your dog chase squirrels teach it to chase a ball instead. Bottom line any dog developed for hunting- all terriers, all hounds and many other groups, have the capacity to develop/show strong prey drive. These dogs needs to be taught as pups to redirect that drive into appropriate outlets. If you cannot be bothered to spend the time to do this, do not buy/own one of these breeds.

The attack on Morph sounds awful and I sympathise but I think it's wrong to generalise about bull breed dogs.

My dog is a staff cross and will chase squirrels, foxes and cats if he gets a chance but is great with my two cats and free range chickens, even letting them eat from his food bowl. So he has a strong prey drive but this does not extend to all 'prey'. He is also really good with other dogs even when the other dog acts aggressively towards him and even small dogs.

He is really friendly with people and my granddaughter, who is 5 now, has been bossing him around since she was old enough to walk and talk.

I think the reason that my dog is as good as he is, was that I had him castrated at the age of 10 months and he is neither submissive nor over dominant.

Submissive or fearful dogs invite attack from other dogs and dogs will pick up the fear from their owners, so I think it is important for the owners to remain calm and confident, unless of course their dog is actually being attacked, then I think I personally would find it impossible not to intervene.

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Cyclists don't block traffic, they are traffic!

Twitter: @LadyChe3

Well said firstmate I did however see a man in his 40's walking a yorkie off lead the other day, but you're right it's usually bull breeds and younger owners.

I posted a couple of posters in the lounge thread about 'dogs in need of space' and 'how not to greet a dog' will post them here again with hope that people will find these helpful.

I printed these off for my young nephews and nieces, I wish I could post these around the park...can think of some other dog owners I know who definitely need to take note!

First Mate, I have this very morning had a horrid encounter on this lovely sunny day where an offlead staff pood on a pavement with his oblivious owner walking on ahead. So I called out and pointed it out to which I got all sorts of abuse. I think the dog had a dicky tummy, but even if he wasnt able to pick it up because of liquidity, if it had been on a lead he could have at least guided it into the gutter. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to ever challenge someone again. It acheived nothing except to make me feel a bit vulnerable.

Lady D,

I'm not quite sure what you mean by submissive dogs. A dog can be made fearful of other dogs by owners letting their dog bound up to any dog in a rambunctious manner. Please bear in mind that some dogs and breeds are better than others both at reading and displaying social signals. A dog that looks overwhelmed is not necessarily submissive or inviting attack, they simply do not want to engage with that particular dog/s. Likewise, a dog that bounds up to another uninvited or in a very pushy way either has no manners/is inadequately socialised, or is from a breed that is less naturally attuned to social signalling- both staffs and labradors are examples.

I'm sorry but I do think the notion that some dogs 'invite attack' is misconstrued and is often used to blame the hapless owner for having a 'submissive or fearful' dog. Some dogs and pups get told off for being over familiar with other dogs- owners need to monitor what the pup/dog is doing and whether the dog they are approaching looks comfortable with the fact. Dogs initially express discomfort in quite subtle ways but all owners should know what those signals are and take action.

Also breeds developed for particular functions will have a strong desire to act out the behaviours they are hardwired for- collies nip and herd; terriers hunt and kill; hounds chase and kill. Puppy training and socialisation has to accomodate and train around these various urges. Labradors and other gun dog breeds have been selectively bred to be overfriendly; for instance, lab pups can often barge into situations heedless of the other dog's signals to bee off- and get out of my face. However, labs are also highly responsive and biddable and can be trained from puppyhood to greet other dogs politely.

All of us owners just need to be a heck of a lot more aware about the dogs we own and the dogs other people own. If you just want to switch off in the park and walk around in a daze then don't have a dog.

Lady D, well done for having a good Staff. However, though I know it is a natural urge I would still try to discourage chasing of small prey in town, if only to set an example. Also dogs in hot pursuit of furries are not controllable and running out of the park is a possbility. I have a bugbear about a red staff that jumps in and out of the Japanese garden to chase squirrels- the owner has no control at all.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was 2012:03:28:13:10:42 by first mate.

Huggers,

Yeuuch! If the dog has a squitty tummy then perhaps we should all think about carrying a bottle with mild detergent to wash pavement off.

A well known trainer and behaviourist called John Rogerson is of the view that all of us should be teaching our dogs to defecate on command so that we can control where they go and when. He says that all dogs for the hearing and blind do this so why not pet owners. It is food for thought.

Marie81,

Great posters- they should be put all around the park.

First mate I remember your helpful comments when my dog Woody was attacked, you are a great edf correspondent and obviously a real authority on dogs. I totally agree with the idea of off and on lead areas in the park. It would be so great to walk in the park without fear. But sadly I don't think many dog owners would stick to it - even very reasonable seeming dog owners seem to let their dog off the lead in Japanese garden etc despite the notices, and I've never seen a warden tell anyone off for having their dog off the lead there so it's become just a sign for people to ignore.

first mate, thanks for the advice.

Just one thing - I don't know who John Rogerson is but he is wrong about guide dogs being trained to 'go' on command.

I've walked a colleague's guide dog when he wasn't able to take her out himself, and can say from experience that she definitely isn't trained to do this. And if she's off harness, she'd be after that squirrel just like any badly-trained staffie!

Hi Fuzzyboots,

So very sorry to read this horrible story and such a sad end for Morph. My sincere thoughts go out to you and Morp's owner. All dog owners know what their dog is capable of, and I am a dog owner - if a muzzle is needed it should be used.

What's the big deal with putting a muzzle on a dog? Surely it's not cruel. Better that than it biting another dog, human, or other animal.

bonniebird Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ironjawcannon Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I suggest you report this to police.
>
>
> The police don't do anything if its dog on dog
> attack, only if a human gets bitten in the process
>

Ir is worth telling the police anyway - just so they know this aggressive beast is roaming a public area - even if they don't do anything.
Peckham Rye Park is lovely - but there are always reports on here about dog attacks there. My worry is about the possible threat to children

FirstMate, I'm not making any kind of judgement in saying that submissive digs can invite attack, just a statement of fact. A more dominant dog will often attemp to assert itself over a submissive dog and if the dominant dog is also aggressive, that is more likely to lead to an attack than if the other dog is neutral or dominant.

It is useful for owners and dogs to try to limit the likelihood of attack by working on fear issues, but that is not shifting blame from the aggressive dog to the submissive one, just like someone with a big house and no burglar alarm is not to blame if someone burgles their house.

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Cyclists don't block traffic, they are traffic!

Twitter: @LadyChe3

I witnessed a dog completely out of control this morning in the park - it had a small dog pinned down and the other dog owners around at the time all appeared really worried (many were lifting their dogs up out of the way). The large dog's owner was an older man who simply swore and muttered under his breath when asked politely by other owners to bring his dog under contol.

I don't know anything about dogs or dog breeds, but I really hope this wasn't the same dog!

It does seem ridiculous the police are powerless to deal with dog on dog attacks. The owner should be held to account for their dog's actions. I guess sometimes in the animal kingdom nature takes over. But in this case it seems the owner did sweet FA to help during the attack and after. I haven't got a dog but if I did, and my dog attacked another and injured it that badly I'd be mortified.

LD,
I'm not sure what you mean by a dominant dog? Very confident dogs rarely have to assert themselves- a submissive/underconfident dog would most likely be ignored by them.

Dogs that go looking for a fight and to impress themselves on other dogs on a regular basis may be unsound, have a very strong fighting instinct (it cannot be denied that this runs in some staffy/staffy type lines) or they are fearful of other dogs/have been allowed to get into bad habits. Some dogs are allowed to become bullies because of inadequate training.

The times I see dogs scrap are when two intact males meet- this is natural and hormonal and a reason why owners of intact males should always be careful when allowing intact boys to run together- especially if there are bitches in season around. Some boys get along, some just ignore each other, but there is always the risk of a competitive set to. Breeds vary in how well intact males tolerate each other.

Some bitches can take a strong, lifelong dislike to each other- again hormonal.

Adult dogs have varying degrees of tolerance around puppies and adolescents. Some adolescent males will be 'targetted'by older intact males- hormonal again. A fair number of adult dogs will react badly to having a pupppy jump all over them. There are breed variations.

Some dogs require more space than others (see Marie's excellent posters)and dogs from some breeds do less well at reading social situations. This can cause fights.

Very occasionally a group of dogs may gang up on a 'weak' elderly or sick member but this would happen more in a pack situation at home.

Dogs can treat other dogs as prey. Some dogs with a strong fighting heritage can roll over from play into prey drive/aggression quite suddenly. I suspect this is what happened with poor Morph. Most Staffy breed websites advise owners to carefully socialise and monitor their dog's play with other breeds, teaching the dog when to stop. Most also advise that while these dogs are great with people they need careful supervision around other dogs. This is not dominance it is a trait that has been selectively bred for.

None of these instances is about dominance. The only case that really matches that description is when two intact males fight over a bitch for for territory. Most dogs are merely social opportunists who want to meet other dogs for play or for sex- the whole dominance paradigm doesn't really make much sense in those terms. Dogs that repeatedly want to attack other dogs are either not quite right, have learned to do this through fear/human taught, or have a genetic propensity to do this. A spat is rather different and ,yes, dogs have teeth and they will use them to make a point- but there will be no injuries afterwards.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2012:03:29:17:49:28 by first mate.

Fantastic post firstmate, absolutely spot on .

first mate - swap 'dogs' for 'people' and you've a fairly accuarte description of human social interaction as well. Will be wary of intact males henceforth.

First-mate, dogs have a natural inclination towards hierarchy, which is why confident owners can assume the position of pack leader and have otherwise dominant dogs, obey them.

All of what you have said above is true, but I disagree with your analysis that dominance and submission/fear in dogs have no part to play in dog on dog attacks. As you say, however, the dominant dog would usually just put the more submissive dog in its place without having to actually attack them. The hierarchy would be established and both dogs would usually be happy with this.

I think that problems can arise when a submissive/fearful dog gives mixed messages by being aggressive/baring teeth while at the same time exhibiting fear. This is something that the owner of a fearful/submissive dog can work with to limit the chance of attack by a more dominant dog who feels the need to assert himself.

The issue of two dominant dogs trying to work out their hierarchy, especially as you say when a bitch is present, is a more obvious cause of concern, and can take quite a few meetings or a long period of time to settle.

We had a German shepherd years ago who we couldn't let off the lead and had to muzzle. He didn't have a prey drive as such but had a massively heightened guard instinct. We took him to dog a psychologist for about 2 years but made very little progress with him. He was fantastic with our cats and children, but would attack other dogs and on two occasions people with little warning. In the end we had no choice but to get him placed with the RAF as a working guard dog, as he was just totally unsuitable as a pet.

I think the issue of dog on dog attacks is a lot more complex than many people realise and that as well as working with aggressive dogs, dog owners who have a lot of fear, or allow their small dogs to dominate their house etc could also do with help in balancing their dogs too.

I would also advocate neutering of all pet dogs, as like you say, First Mate, many of the problems between dogs are hormone driven.

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Cyclists don't block traffic, they are traffic!

Twitter: @LadyChe3



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2012:03:30:09:44:48 by LadyDeliah.

LD,

Dogs are social animals and need boundaries and 'rules' if they are all to get along in the same household. However, I disagree with you that there are clear hierarchies- dogs are not pack animals in the same way that wolves are- and, as I am sure you know, the wolf pack is built on a family structure where the parents are in charge, which puts rather a different gloss on the whole idea of the 'dominant' male and female.

Studies on feral dogs show that they do not form true packs or hierarchies, rather the relationships shift with different individuals being more assertive in different contexts. People who own many dogs together often notice the same thing- a seemingly 'submissive' dog may becomes very assertive in a certain room or outside of the house. A seemingly' dominant' dog changes in another environment. As a rule bitches tend to be more assertive in the home and dogs outside.

Dogs that consistently get into fights might be viewed as maladpative since it is not a biologically sound strategy for
survival. Psycho wolves tend to get ostracised by the pack because an animal that fights causes upheaval and tension in the group, it is a also a massive waste of energy, not to mention the risk of injury. Adolescent animals and junior members of the wolf pack are disciplined but those meteing out discipline are likely to be the parents (see David Mech on studies of wild wolves in Yellowstone Park).Much wolf beahviour is ritualized social signalling, to which they are highly attuned. When a wolf attacks it really does intend to kill. Some dogs have lost this sensitivity to social signals, others are more sensitive. Though dogs are genetically close to wolves, behaviourally they are different in many ways.

Once you put humans into the equation things are more complex still. Rather than 'pack leaders' I suspect that dogs see us as reliable providers of food, security and play- we also make the rules. Perhaps we are closer to secondary parent figures than leaders. A major reason we can get dogs to obey us is down to conditioning/associative learning and the fact that dogs have an almost unique ability to read and respond to human facial expressions. In varying degrees dogs have been selectively bred to have a need to repsond to us. It really does not have much to do with dominance.

I think different types of dogs have evolved through artificial selection for different functions and as a result they have different thresholds for reactivity, for social signalling and for the exhibition of fear or aggression. One can quite easily point to breeds that are more laid back generally. Like your GSD- an example of a dog exhibiting working traits at the extreme end of what he was selectively bred to do, guard, so much so that he could not function in the average domestic environment.

On top of all this humans can cause problems through inadequate socialisation, over indlugence, poor/no training etc..
I do agree that owners can increase their dogs fear or aggression by their own behaviour. However, we will have to agree to differ about boiling dog relationships down to dominance/submission/hierarchies. It is a view promulgated by the likes of Cesar Milan who is viewed as woefully out of touch by cynologists and the canine scientific community.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2012:03:30:11:58:40 by first mate.

I agree with First Mate. The theory of 'dominance' as perpetrated by cesar melan etc is generally accepted as outdated, unhelpful and even dangerous. Replace the word 'pack' with the word ' family' and you get a much closer idea to social relations .
Our old labrador that we had when I was a child was incredibly submissive re people, and very aggressive re other dogs. This was because he was screwed up by his previous owners!A lovely dog who was a nightmare on walks and who let the burglars in too.

So it looks like Blue and his owner have gone to ground. Every dog owner I know that uses the Rye is on the look out for him.

Whatever happened to Monty? The dog that attacked Woody.

The thing is First Mate, most domestic dogs will not be encountering dogs they are related to, so the family model of the majority of wolf packs does not equate to most domestic situations. Also the younger wolves in the wolf pack might not challenge the breeding pair for primacy, but they will compete with each other.

I have fostered various dogs over the years and when a new dog is brought into the family, there is an initial period of jostling for the dominant position which then determines who eats first, who gets to sleep in which bed etc.

Even if I stop the physically aggressive jostling for position, later, the more dominant dog will have still taken the prime position and the more submissive dog will have been pushed out.

If both dogs are assertive, the jostling for the dominant position can become quite serious.

If this is then taken outside and the dogs from my family meet dogs they do not know, they will co-operate and work as a group even when playing, but from what I've seen the hierarchy is still evident as the dog that has shown its dominance in the house will do things like stand between our dog and the stranger in a protective way, or push the less dominant dog out of the way to get the food from the old lady who feed the dogs, or get the first stroke etc.

As for David Mech, he is arguing that there is no rigid hierarchy in wolves, but who said there was? What hierarchies are rigid? And so what if the pack leaders are related to the rest of the pack, that does not mean that the hierarchical family structure is not relevant. The hierarchical structures and pack co-operation developed as a means of not constantly fighting over resources as it improved the change of survival of the individual and these instincts can still be seen in domestic dogs, despite the fact they are no longer needed for survival.

So if the instinct is still in domestic dogs, whether to a greater or lesser degree depending on breed etc, and domestic dogs constantly meet dogs they do not have a relationship with so have not yet placed into their hierarchy, there is likely to be some tension between the dogs until they know what the other dog is about.

If your dog is balanced and if the other dog is socialised enough to read your dog's signals, then they should get along fine. I think that cases where the other dog's owner is practically hysterical with fear, or overtly aggressive, even a balanced dog might not react in it's usual way.

Whether this is even related to the dominance and hierarchy of dogs, which I believe exists, I can't say, but I still stand by my point that owners who project their fear and hysteria to their dogs, need just as much work as owners whose dogs are aggressive.

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Cyclists don't block traffic, they are traffic!

Twitter: @LadyChe3