The Drawing Room

Re: The Cove and fishing.

elloriac — Tue, 07 Sep 2010 16:36:13 +0100

And most farmed fish are fed wild fish as food!

Re: Nepotism in the workplace

KidKruger — Tue, 07 Sep 2010 11:43:01 +0100

I've seen nothing above to suggest people are being taken on REGARDLESS of their skills and REGARDLESS of the likelihood of their ability to blend withthe existing staff. Often, knowing or knowing OF someone can pre-empt potential issues such as interpersonal conflicts / hiring a difficult person or understanding actual ability (not ALWAYS easy in interviews because interviewers are not always qualified / experienced enough to conduct objective interviewing [in itself a huge issue in my mind, tantamount to Brendan's concerns]). The implication of following a 'due process' for recruitment is that it's expertly done, by people who know what they're doing, and totally understand the business's needs. Far from always the case in IMO.

Not saying that's the only reason to recruit personal contacts, but, besides saving on agency and middle-man fees, it's another advantage of using that approach. You know (have an idea of) what you're getting.

I have actually interviewed people in the past, had suspicions about their stories and (after checking with contacts at other organisations) discovered disasters waiting to happen. These people were politely omitted from my search, never knowing that I became aware of their deceit. Some of these interviewees were favoured by others on the interview panel because of their demeanour or warmness, absolute disasters waiting to happen (assuming success of the company is your objective). We'd have had to prove their failures and wrap a lot of time and money around their exit, then start the search all over again.
Some people roam company to company doing shite work, taking the money AND the p!ss. A company needs to keep it's business running and the huge costs for recruitment and recuitment mistakes are tough to swallow at best of times.

Re: Using up leave before leaving emploment

Ladymuck — Mon, 06 Sep 2010 21:46:30 +0100

Good luck frump.

Re: Using up leave before leaving emploment

frump — Mon, 06 Sep 2010 20:34:21 +0100

I certainly will let you know.
Bye

Re: Using up leave before leaving emploment

DJKillaQueen — Mon, 06 Sep 2010 20:02:44 +0100

I am so pleased that you've some help. Just goes to show that it's worth posting....

Let us know how you get on...

Re: Using up leave before leaving emploment

frump — Mon, 06 Sep 2010 19:58:49 +0100

Have just spoken to ACAS! Very helpful and straightforward advice. Looks like I'm taking out a Grievance tomorrow which they will ignore if they remain as predictable as I imagine, but will be there if it goes to tribunal. Apparently the employer needs to give twice the length of notice to days to be taken to employee ie if they want me to take 2 weeks leave, they have to give 4 weeks notice, so to take 4 days leave they must give 8 days notice which they have done, as I only work 3 days a week this may translate to nearly 3 weeks notice which is almost what they have done, not by design I am sure. None of this is statutory apparently so I have to argue that what they want me to do is contrary to my 2 professional registrations codes of conduct eg letting down vulnerable people when you fancy having 4 days off with no warning.
So thanks for the ACAS advice, the helpline was brilliant, I had not thought about a Grievance and am now twitching to put it in writing for tomorrow!

Re: Using up leave before leaving emploment

DJKillaQueen — Mon, 06 Sep 2010 19:56:04 +0100

Ok I can find nothing in law that says you must take the annual leave before your end date, only that your employer must pay you for untaken leave (so you will likely be due a little more money than you were expecting in your final payment). And I think they probably know this hence asking you if you [i]intended[/i] to take unused leave in the first place.

The downside is that you may well have to take them to tribunal if they refuse to pay up.

Oh and to say check your original contract of employment too...but if it is 20 years old it may well not be up to date with current employment laws anyway.

Re: Using up leave before leaving emploment

DJKillaQueen — Mon, 06 Sep 2010 19:39:10 +0100

Frump you can try giving these people a call too for advice....

ACAS
Free advice line giving employment law advice
Telephone: 0845 747 47 47
Minicom:08456 06 16 00
www.acas.org.uk

Re: Using up leave before leaving emploment

Ladymuck — Mon, 06 Sep 2010 19:37:31 +0100

No worries frump - I used to be an employment law specialist up until around 3 years ago. Very satisfying it was too. I got used to employers' attempts at pulling the wool over their employees' eyes...and the more badly they treated their employees the more aggressive I got LOL! I usually won on behalf of my clients!

Re: Using up leave before leaving emploment

frump — Mon, 06 Sep 2010 19:26:57 +0100

And thanks to DJKillaQueen too!

Re: Using up leave before leaving emploment

frump — Mon, 06 Sep 2010 19:26:14 +0100

Wow Ladymuck, that's very helpful. I'm so grateful.

Re: Using up leave before leaving emploment

DJKillaQueen — Mon, 06 Sep 2010 19:24:51 +0100

That seems pretty clear to me that you are not obliged to use up you annual leave before your end date. I'll see if I can find any legislation document on that in law....

Re: Using up leave before leaving emploment

Ladymuck — Mon, 06 Sep 2010 19:15:15 +0100

Just did some research for you...from the CAB website:

[i]Leaving your job

If you have not been able to take all the holiday you have built up before your job ends, you have the right to pay instead of the untaken holiday. Your employer should pay you for all the holiday you have built up. If you have an agreement with your employer, which says how much pay you will get instead of untaken holiday, you may get the amount in this agreement. If your agreement with your employer does not say how much pay you should get, the rules on how much pay you should get for untaken holiday are complicated and you should seek further advice.

Your employer may refuse to pay you for untaken holiday if you are leaving or have left your job. If you are in this situation you can enforce your right to pay for untaken holiday at an employment tribunal. If you are in this situation you may have to raise a written grievance with your employer first.

For more information about grievances, in England, Wales and Scotland, see Resolving disputes at work and in Northern Ireland, see Dealing with grievances, dismissal and disciplinary action at work.

If you are in this situation, you should seek the help of an experienced adviser, for example, at a Citizens Advice Bureau. You should contact a CAB as soon as possible, as there is a time limit for making claims to employment tribunals. To search for details of your nearest CAB, including those that can give advice by email, click on (New window) nearest CAB.
If you owe holiday when you leave your job[/i]

Go for it frump!

Re: Using up leave before leaving emploment

frump — Mon, 06 Sep 2010 19:12:36 +0100

Will do!

Re: Using up leave before leaving emploment

Ladymuck — Mon, 06 Sep 2010 19:12:29 +0100

frump Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> we're not talking wads of
> cash here but more of a principle after 20 long
> hard years.

Quite right too - you fight till the bitter end!

Re: Using up leave before leaving emploment

DJKillaQueen — Mon, 06 Sep 2010 19:01:09 +0100

yw frump.....get a copy of that HR policy tm and come back to us if you need to.

Re: Using up leave before leaving emploment

frump — Mon, 06 Sep 2010 18:57:52 +0100

That's really helpful both of you, thank you very much. Aside from rather informal e mails, I have had nothing formal in writing and it does seem unfair to leave it until the last minute. I will ask for their policy on this tomorrow. I will think about the Citizens Advice route as well if this is not resolved; we're not talking wads of cash here but more of a principle after 20 long hard years.
Thanks again to you both for taking the time to respond.

Re: Using up leave before leaving emploment

DJKillaQueen — Mon, 06 Sep 2010 18:47:21 +0100

Usually what happens when you write in your resignation is that the employer will work out how much annual leave you have left and work that into your finish date. It sounds as though they, your employer, didn't do this at the time and have left it till the last minute, so for me they are to blame for the mess.

They are quite right though in their HR policy and that is standard practise of paying outstanding leave when notice is served. But I say again that is a discussion they should have had with you when your resignation was tendered. Have a look at your companies HR policy. many companies write in a time limit, of for example, within three days of receipt of resignation to have that conversation and agree the end date in writing.

Re: Using up leave before leaving emploment

Ladymuck — Mon, 06 Sep 2010 18:47:08 +0100

No wonder you are upset. I no longer work in employment law so would not like to get into too much detail as my knowledge in that area is no longer up to date.

However, as I remember the situation, if for some reason you have outstanding holiday to take before leaving your job, you are entitled to be paid for the holiday which you haven't taken. I have no reason to believe that this basic right has changed. May I suggest that you visit your nearest CAB (I don't know where you are based, but there used to be one in Sydenham and Catford). It won't cost you anything. Good luck.

Using up leave before leaving emploment

frump — Mon, 06 Sep 2010 18:28:21 +0100

I am somewhat of a lurker on this forum but today I have a request to those in the know and would really appreciate advice:
Having worked for nearly 20 years for a local authority, I handed in my notice at the end of July and will leave on 24th September- 8 weeks notice. I requested acknowledgement of my resignation 3 weeks ago as I had had no response. I was then asked some questions about how much leave I had taken and how much I intended to take before I left. I responded that I did not plan to take any leave and no more was said about this until today when I was informed that I am owed 4 days leave and would have to take this before I leave. Not counting this week, I only have 6 days work before the end of my notice period as I work part-time. I am told by my employer that I should know HR policy and cannot be paid the days owing. I have explained that I cannot take time off; I work in a therapeutic role in a mental health setting, my diary is booked several weeks in advance and I am on various duty rotas at the local A&E. Unbelievably the Local Authority have not provided me with a manager since December 2009 and as I work in an NHS clinic for the Local Authority, I have no access to the work's Intranet or to management and therefore no access to HR policies.
In short, has my employer given me enough notice to take leave owing or should they have informed me earlier and not expected me to understand/know HR policy especially when I have not resigned a post in 20 years.
I see I have become a bit rambling, but after 20 years and a great deal of nonsense from this employer, i am truly rattled and upset by their attitude.

Re: Over population - should births be taxed?

SteveT — Sun, 05 Sep 2010 21:31:28 +0100

Good movie Hal, the plot though was enough to make me shiver.

expat wrote:- Perhaps anyone 1 year younger then steve t and up should be terminated?

That would be two years before pensionable age which would suit the governments accounts books just fine.

An interesting concept expat but withdrawal of benefits would be more efficient and target the poorest, weakest and most dependent.
Sounds to me like the world of expat is a paradise waiting to happen, personally I don't think you've a dogs chance to make your idea stick!

Re: Over population - should births be taxed?

HAL9000 — Sun, 05 Sep 2010 13:17:31 +0100

SteveT - your idea brings to mind the 1973 movie [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green]Soylent Green[/url] - recycling is all the rage these days.

Re: Over population - should births be taxed?

expat — Sun, 05 Sep 2010 10:08:25 +0100

Well the terms many Japanese women use to describe their retired husbands, �Sodaigomi� or oversized garbage and �nureochiba� or wet fallen leave. I am not aware theat is gneric in Japan.

Perhaps anyone 1 year younger then steve t and up should be terminated?

Re: Gulf oil spill

expat — Sun, 05 Sep 2010 09:53:25 +0100

The well now present no more danger to the environment they say:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/11190710

Re: Is there a God?

Huguenot — Sun, 05 Sep 2010 07:24:37 +0100

The overall tone of your post is a bit weird....

"what do [i]scientists[/i] actually know about the universe?"... "down to belief, gut instinct and upbringing. AND THIS IS TRUE FOR SCIENTISTS"

Those bloody scientists eh? Pesky buggers? What do they [i]actually[/i] know? Compared with your [i]commonsense[/i] and [i]gut belief[/i]? If only only, they could sit down and listen to you and your [i]commonsense[/i], they'd all bit a bit better off eh? Global warming caused by the [i]chinese[/i], and plastic bags are created by people in [i]housing estates[/i]? It's all so obvious, right? It's [i]commonsense[/i].

As for your conviction that it's 'absurd' to discuss the concept of nothing, I appreciate that you probably just haven't thought it through.

Re: Is there a God?

Huguenot — Sun, 05 Sep 2010 07:12:52 +0100

I think it's a weee bit rich to say that '[i]Prof Hawking has bitten off more than he can chew[/i]' and then announce that your alternative solution is that there's a bloke in a towel who writes things in Hebrew on stones at the top of mountains to itinerant jews....

Re: Is there a God?

silverfox — Sun, 05 Sep 2010 01:59:21 +0100

I think missus has hit the nail on the head - none of us know for sure and in the end it comes down to belief, gut instinct and upbringing. AND THIS IS TRUE FOR SCIENTISTS (note caps here).

jctg - I'm not claiming more knowledge and understanding of theoretical physics than Prof Hawking. My understanding is science for the proles a la wikipedia with a measure of commonsense thrown in.

Huguenot, good try (welcome back by the way) but again you've missed the point but nevertheless provided an interesting smorgasbord at which we can all nibble. Hal, I bow to superior knowledge and am prepared to stand corrected.

Now, let's get back to basics. The Guardian newspaper carried a humorous article about this the other day which said that if God could be bothered to explain the workings of the universe to Stephen Hawking he would be one of the few people on the planet who might have a chance of understanding what God was saying. This article made a serious point - what do scientists actually know about the universe?

According to scientists the universe is made up of about 4% ordinary matter (ie those lovely stars twinkling in the night sky); 23% dark matter, ie matter [b]that is inferred to exist[/b] from gravitational effects on visible matter and background radiation, [b]but is undetectable by emitted or scattered electromagnetic radiation[/b] and 73% of dark energy - [b]a hypothetical form of energy that permeates all of space and is the most popular way to explain recent observations and experiments that the universe appears to be expanding at an accelerating rate[/b].

The stars I can see. But it seems scientists are struggling to get to grips with what dark matter is (the so-called scaffolding of the universe) and they seem to have no idea what dark energy is but somehow it's supposed to keep pushing the galaxies apart and the universe will expand for ever.

Against this background of uncertainty (and let's face it quasi-scientific belief and faith), Prof Hawking now announces that the universe can be created from nothing because there are billions of other universes in the multiverse and gravity allows for it (okay I do him a disservice).

Yes Huguenot, at the micro level of the sub-atomic, particles do whizz in and out of existence, but it is absurd to say "In modern physics, there is no such thing as "nothing." Even in a perfect vacuum, pairs of virtual particles are constantly being created and destroyed. The existence of these particles is no mathematical fiction..."

It is absurd because while this is happening at the quantum level, at the macro level galaxies are forming and merging and having the life sucked out of them by black holes, supernovas are exploding and so on. Where is the nothingness? Can quantum mechanics exist in nothing?

In short, Prof Hawking has bitten off more than he can chew. He should have stayed at Cambridge. He's gone funny since he went to Canada.

Re: Over population - should births be taxed?

SteveT — Sun, 05 Sep 2010 00:20:41 +0100

A familiar term for the retired in Japan is 'big garbage'!

Quids the potential for a new industry,

'finality shops' or "the Terminus" which will provide a good send off,

errr provided the octogenarians have the money of course.

Re: Is there a God?

HAL9000 — Sat, 04 Sep 2010 17:40:39 +0100

In case any armchair physicists are tempted to stray from the path of scientific righteousness ...

The Cosmological Theory known as the Big Bang holds that Space, Time and Energy/Matter came into being simultaneously - at the Big Bang.

Thus, the Universe cannot be the result of quantum fluctuations (which need Space and Time in which to occur).

Furthermore, the Zero Net Energy theory is only valid within an Oscillating Universe (a long-time favourite of Prof. Hawking) but contemporary observations are against such an outcome. As far as science can tell, the Universe is not closed. It is not only open but its rate of expansion appears to be accelerating � both observations argue against Hawking�s math.

Also, acceptance of Prof. Hawking's view requires belief in Inflation - a mysterious, omnipotent and omnipresent force that acted as the Prime Mover immediately after the Big Bang and whose energy is now being touted as the gravitational potential underlying Hawking's premise - we might as well call it the 'Hand of God' for all that science knows about it.

And, finally, Prof. Hawking is promoting another cosmology book written for the masses � I can�t think of a better way to boost sales than to hype therein some revelation about God. His publishing success is founded upon that formula.

Re: Is there a God?

expat — Sat, 04 Sep 2010 13:03:08 +0100

Didn't Professor Hawkins say that a god was not necessary which is not the same as saying there is no god IMHO.
Also did The Archbishop of Canterbury not say that "Professor Hawking's latest theories should be welcomed by believers in God"