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The East Dulwich Forum
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messageRe: Sweaty Betty - the final nail in the gentrification coffin?
Posted by NewWave 02 May, 2016 22:59

vito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cassel Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > What's wrong with variety - I've lived in ED
> for
> > 25 years and the small newsagent I buy my paper
> > from (he also sells milk) is still there after
> all
> > these years. It's not as though Sweaty Betty
> are
> > opening a department store - it's a small
> outlet.
> > I love their clothes and the price reflects
> the
> > quality of their products which are more
> durable
> > than buying something cheaper which doesn't
> wash
> > well or keep its shape and I disagree they're
> > bland. So I'll be shopping in there when my
> > budget allows but I'll also go and buy a doner
> > kebab if I fancy one. Just as I'll continue
> > shopping in the Co-op as opposed to M&S - it's
> all
> > down to choice.
>
> As far as They will leave us a choice Cassel.. I
> work in west london Portobello rd since 2005, Use
> to be eclectic and vibrant full of original shops
> and new ideas. I remember before (less than 10 yrs
> ago not some 50 yrs ago) stall owners at the local
> market use to work hard and were very busy. The
> best of them, the ones with the best ideas, use to
> work hard for a few yrs hoping to get a chance to
> open a shop on portobello rd (see for instance
> punky fish which i don t like for design etc but
> is a perfect example).
> Now often in my short lunch break i talk to them
> as few yrs ago. Before they were telling me about
> their hopes to get this shop or the other shop and
> make a step forward in business but also in life;
> now they tell me (at the best) they are applying
> to work at the till of some well known supermarket
> chain or they dream to get a job as security
> person on some mobile phone company shop..
> I remember the rd as it was 5 to 7 yrs ago and it
> was an unique place all over the world, attracting
> visitors, locals and tourists in here. I remember
> I use to have the hot dog guy phone number as it
> was taking me ages to walk one single block to get
> some lunch as the street was crowded and business
> had people queing all the times.
> At present road is empty on any due day...i don t
> need to call the guy anymore for my hot dog as it
> takes me 20sec to walk to him now in a road that
> looks like any airport in any city...from vodafone
> to starbucks, burgers chains, coffe chains ..you
> name it..it looks like walking in heathrow airport
> but....with nearly no people at all
> The hot dog man and his son are doing best they
> can for the son to get a job in tesco or sainsbury
> in a street and in a world that doesn t pay back
> if you have ideas but pays back only if you have
> money and can pay the 150K per year for a 40 sq mt
> shop in compare to the 30K it was costing 5 yrs
> ago..
> I don t see the choice there anymore.... but still
> if i had a son i would be happy to listen to his
> business ideas and support him best I can rather
> than having a son that sadly hopes to get into
> some chain supermarket as....it is the only
> choice...
> The choice we have is now as for instance in
> portobello rd once a supermarket decided to pay
> 100k per year on a 30 sq meter (that use to cost
> 20K 5 yrs ago) there is not way back. rightly so
> all the commercial landlords now expect that rent
> and chains keeps coming in, in a road that was the
> centre of europe over the week ends and now is sad
> and empty..
> As you can imagine I don t care much about
> portobello rd but i care my son will have a choice
> in life...
> Nothing personal against Mrs Sweaty Betty in
> person...a part from the very ugly name..big grin


Well Said!
Iwas born in Ladbroke grove in the 60's and lived in the area until 5 years ago when finances caused me to move here.
Portobello road used to be brilliant, full of independent shops, local characters, dreamers artists, hustlers.
It was my 'hood and I loved its run-down but optimistic energy.
but slowly things changed-a row of antique arcades became All Saints, the Butchers left and was replaced by a gift shop
And now?....Now I can't stand the place its like Carnaby St or Camden, loads of shops selling tourist tat and cheap shoes, 'Jack Wills' 'Lush Cosmetics'
There is nothing there that holds any magic. The cool Pubs have gone, the characters are dying off or having to move out.
My mother was born on Westbourne Park Road in the 1930s when it was terribly poor and run down.
But at least it had a community and soul.
Now there is neither.
Its another sign of the homogonisation of our city.
London is dead..its time we realised that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2016:05:02:23:01:00 by NewWave.

messageRe: Sweaty Betty - the final nail in the gentrification coffin?
Posted by Louisa 02 May, 2016 23:17

Have to agree with you NewWave.

Despite all the writing being on the wall for ED lots of people on here are justifying the fact we are at where we are at, and it's only one chain store replacing another or the area cannot sustain large chains. It's all wishful thinking. Look at the creeping applications on the planning portal if you don't believe me. Believe why you see with your own eyes. Upmarket, trendy chains are moving in and they're homogenising this neighborhood and now Peckham in much the same way that Notting Hill and Islington were numerous decades back. Come back in 20 years and you'll see clean quiet streets, pointless high end chain stores and a less socially diverse neighborhood.

Louisa.

messageRe: Sweaty Betty - the final nail in the gentrification coffin?
Posted by Horsebox 03 May, 2016 08:25

Louisa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Come back in 20 years and you'll see clean quiet
> streets....
> Louisa.

Louisa,

You appear to be suggesting that clean quiet streets are a bad thing.

messageRe: Sweaty Betty - the final nail in the gentrification coffin?
Posted by *Bob* 03 May, 2016 08:44

HELPWEREALLGOINGTODIE

Dramatic music plays, credits roll, curtains close.

messageRe: Sweaty Betty - the final nail in the gentrification coffin?
Posted by Mick Mac 03 May, 2016 11:56

Louisa

Put a call into a few of the major chains and ask them "where are you definitely not interested or never likely to be interested in opening?"

Move there as soon as you can. I'm sure those places will be absolutely perfect for you. And I'm sure they are all lovely.

messageRe: Sweaty Betty - the final nail in the gentrification coffin?
Posted by JohnL 03 May, 2016 12:27

Horsebox Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Louisa Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Come back in 20 years and you'll see clean
> quiet
> > streets....
> > Louisa.
>
> Louisa,
>
> You appear to be suggesting that clean quiet
> streets are a bad thing.

But 100% 'clean' streets with no up or down will
be boring. You need a 'bad' bit of town smiling smiley

I'm not saying throw your litter in Rye Lane
by the way - it's the slight grime feel.

messageRe: Sweaty Betty - the final nail in the gentrification coffin?
Posted by rahrahrah 03 May, 2016 13:17

I think the chain thing is a red herring, in terms of being any indicator of 'gentrification'. There are plenty of down at heal areas which have lot's of chains, as well as very affluent ones with none.
Rye Lane could not in any sense be said to be 'gentrified'. Gentrifying perhaps, but's that's different.
I don't really know what people want. to live in an area which is solely 'working class' (however that is defined)? Seems very insular to me.
This part of SE London is actually pretty diverse on almost any measure and all the better for that.

messageRe: Sweaty Betty - the final nail in the gentrification coffin?
Posted by 03 May, 2016 13:22

Horsebox Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Louisa Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Come back in 20 years and you'll see clean
> quiet
> > streets....
> > Louisa.
>
> Louisa,
>
> You appear to be suggesting that clean quiet
> streets are a bad thing.

Come on there's two types of dirt - the sweated brow type from the salt of the earth workers formed from their honest toil and THEN there's the blow in type of dirt; all sneering and entitled....etc etc etc

messageRe: Sweaty Betty - the final nail in the gentrification coffin?
Posted by LondonMix 03 May, 2016 13:49

Exactly-- chains aren't a sign of gentrification. There are areas with lots of chains that are demographically poorer the Dulwich. Eltham comes to mind!

In large retail units you get high end chains if the area is affluent and low end chains in areas that are poor. In small retail units (like those that dominate East Dulwich) you get high end small businesses or lowwer end small businesses. And some chains go where ever as long as there is space.

Bath Hampstead Heath and Peckham have both had a McDonald's for ages (well before Peckham become more expensive). The only reason we don't have one is because they can't find an appropriately sized unit.

rahrahrah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think the chain thing is a red herring, in terms
> of being any indicator of 'gentrification'. There
> are plenty of down at heal areas which have lot's
> of chains, as well as very affluent ones with
> none.
> Rye Lane could not in any sense be said to be
> 'gentrified'. Gentrifying perhaps, but's that's
> different.
> I don't really know what people want. to live in
> an area which is solely 'working class' (however
> that is defined)? Seems very insular to me.
> This part of SE London is actually pretty diverse
> on almost any measure and all the better for that.

messageRe: Sweaty Betty - the final nail in the gentrification coffin?
Posted by DulwichFox 03 May, 2016 13:51

Rye Lane WAS gentrified up to the 50's with a fine departmental store and a large funiture store
All the major West End stores and several high end shoe shops.. 2 local Cinemas..

Those days will Never return.

DulwichFox

messageRe: Sweaty Betty - the final nail in the gentrification coffin?
Posted by LondonMix 03 May, 2016 14:06

What's your point?

I'm saying the McDonalds has been there during Peckham's un-gentrified state.

messageRe: Sweaty Betty - the final nail in the gentrification coffin?
Posted by *Bob* 03 May, 2016 14:19

Other places recently pronounced 'dead' also include New York, Berlin, Sydney, Paris, Madrid, Melbourne and so on.

Two millennia of continuous capital civic evolution and I just happen to be born at the when they all die. Just my luck.

messageRe: Sweaty Betty - the final nail in the gentrification coffin?
Posted by Mick Mac 03 May, 2016 14:27

LondonMix Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Exactly-- chains aren't a sign of gentrification.
> There are areas with lots of chains that are
> demographically poorer the Dulwich. Eltham comes
> to mind!
>

Yes - Large chains often reflect only an areas size and potential catchment. Having them is often not a good thing.

East Dulwich is small - if a small M&S, FrancoManca, Yama Momo or Sweaty Betty come to ED it's a good thing, imo.

messageRe: Sweaty Betty - the final nail in the gentrification coffin?
Posted by Louisa 03 May, 2016 14:28

The point about high end boutique chains is more relevant to ED than large corporate chains such as McDonalds. The ratio of indepedent stores to chain boutiques has changed and will radically do so even more now M&S are moving here. The Londis site is a perfect case study example. I fail to understand why people cannot acknowledge this point? As the demographic changes, so does the retail diversity. If high end chains cannot find large spaces they will just open up smaller stores (much the same way as they have done in Clapham's Northcote RD). The consequence goes far beyond the retail offering, it's a symptom not a cause.

Louisa.

messageRe: Sweaty Betty - the final nail in the gentrification coffin?
Posted by DulwichFox 03 May, 2016 14:30

*Bob* Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Other places recently pronounced 'dead' also
> include New York, Berlin, Sydney, Paris, Madrid,
> Melbourne and so on.
>
> Two millennia of continuous capital civic
> evolution and I just happen to be born at the when
> they all die. Just my luck.

You cannot compare capital Cities with just Peckham...

Peckham is a district of our capital City London. I would not suggest Central London as being dead..

I would think that most of the worlds Capitals also have districts that were one grand and now distressed.

There are certainly many Towns up and down the UK which were once Grand and now distressed
Many of them Sea-Side resorts..

Foxy.

messageRe: Sweaty Betty - the final nail in the gentrification coffin?
Posted by LondonMix 03 May, 2016 14:36

Louisa, I said flat out that the area's retail offering will become higher end. I just don't think its going to be higher end chains except where the retail units are large enough for them. ED Warehouse was always going to be large enough for a chain. Equally, Foxtons could be turned into a chain. However, the vast majority of units are far too small. They will become high end indies. The units that can be chains for the most part already are.



Louisa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The point about high end boutique chains is more
> relevant to ED than large corporate chains such as
> McDonalds. The ratio of indepedent stores to chain
> boutiques has changed and will radically do so
> even more now M&S are moving here. The Londis site
> is a perfect case study example. I fail to
> understand why people cannot acknowledge this
> point? As the demographic changes, so does the
> retail diversity. If high end chains cannot find
> large spaces they will just open up smaller stores
> (much the same way as they have done in Clapham's
> Northcote RD). The consequence goes far beyond the
> retail offering, it's a symptom not a cause.
>
> Louisa.

messageRe: Sweaty Betty - the final nail in the gentrification coffin?
Posted by Louisa 03 May, 2016 14:37

Foxy, I think *Bob* may need a weekend away to Bognor Regis or Lowestoft to gain some real insight into the great consequence of a London bubble. Peckham transforms from villain to hero in half a decade, aforementioned seaside towns have remained in terminal decline for almost five decades (despite fluctuations in our economy). Sums up the whole thing really. Spread the wealth, or you'll end up with a world class city sat inside a second rate post industrial declining and failing state.

Louisa.

messageRe: Sweaty Betty - the final nail in the gentrification coffin?
Posted by Louisa 03 May, 2016 14:47

LM, you are of course in the most part correct. If we were talking anywhere other than London, I would accept your point and move on. Inside this city, if a chain see an opportunity for its business model, despite limited space, they will simply work around it and find a way to open a branch. I don't know what will be going into the Londis site, but I wouldn't mind guessing it will be a chain restaurant of some description. See the planning portal, they're applying to convert the basement into a further seating area for whichever business takes on this site.

Louisa.

messageRe: Sweaty Betty - the final nail in the gentrification coffin?
Posted by *Bob* 03 May, 2016 14:55

Louisa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Foxy, I think *Bob* may need a weekend away to
> Bognor Regis or Lowestoft

This sounds great - what time does the charabanc leave?

messageRe: Sweaty Betty - the final nail in the gentrification coffin?
Posted by LondonMix 03 May, 2016 14:55

Louisa, what chain do you think could fit in the Londis site with the basement converted? Lord knows I'd love a Nandos!

I'm not sure if that site will be a major chain or not-- my guess would be no based on the drawings.

However, how the high street develops in ED will be a function of planning. Kingston became what it is because the planners allowed the wholesale transformation of the area by allowing major extensions of the existing retail buildings.

That I would really be opposed to.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2016:05:03:14:56:08 by LondonMix.

messageRe: Sweaty Betty - the final nail in the gentrification coffin?
Posted by Seabag 03 May, 2016 15:14

Rolls Royce are building a new factory in Bognor Regis

messageRe: Sweaty Betty - the final nail in the gentrification coffin?
Posted by DaveR 03 May, 2016 15:22

I'm a bit lost now - is the argument that Sweaty Betty moving in will kill ED (or Peckham, or London) or that it will kill Lowestoft (presumably by moving into ED rather than there)?

messageRe: Sweaty Betty - the final nail in the gentrification coffin?
Posted by Louisa 03 May, 2016 15:22

LM a nandos would accessible to the entire community and I wouldn't personally have a problem with them. However, if it is a high end chain which is overpriced and aimed at a specific affluent demographic I would have raise issue. We have ample eating options at decent quality indepedent restaurants locally (and some low brow chains too), we do not need more restaurants which will isolate part of the community. I wouldn't object to a Pizza Express (despite my hatred for the stuff) and I wouldn't have an issue with a Giraffe or Zizzi type place. If it's a chain coffee shop I will personally be campaigning outside for its closure with leaflets distributed!

Louisa.

messageRe: Sweaty Betty - the final nail in the gentrification coffin?
Posted by Louisa 03 May, 2016 15:27

DaveR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm a bit lost now - is the argument that Sweaty
> Betty moving in will kill ED (or Peckham, or
> London) or that it will kill Lowestoft (presumably
> by moving into ED rather than there)?

DaveR, Sweaty Beaty in and of itself will make no difference. It's just another shop. But the process of high end chain wntrenchment will kill ED and yes even Lowestoft, indirectly, in time. Mark my words! Poor London neighborhoods gentrified get the high end chains and disappearing social diversity further enhancing the notion London is a country all by itself, which indirectly continues to damage outlying towns and cities (Lowestoft and Bognor etc) which are already poor and will just get poorer!!

Louisa.

messageRe: Sweaty Betty - the final nail in the gentrification coffin?
Posted by LondonMix 03 May, 2016 15:53

Its not a coffee shop. There is no ordering counter in the internal configuration which means its neither a fast food restaurant or a coffee shop but rather a restaurant like it says in the plans.

I can't think of any high end chain restaurants besides Gaucho to be honest with you and even that has relatively few outlets. Mass chain restaurants by their very nature are mid-priced to reach a mass audience. I'd hate a giraffe or zizzi or pizza express. Not because they are chains but because the food is insipid.



Louisa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> LM a nandos would accessible to the entire
> community and I wouldn't personally have a problem
> with them. However, if it is a high end chain
> which is overpriced and aimed at a specific
> affluent demographic I would have raise issue. We
> have ample eating options at decent quality
> indepedent restaurants locally (and some low brow
> chains too), we do not need more restaurants which
> will isolate part of the community. I wouldn't
> object to a Pizza Express (despite my hatred for
> the stuff) and I wouldn't have an issue with a
> Giraffe or Zizzi type place. If it's a chain
> coffee shop I will personally be campaigning
> outside for its closure with leaflets distributed!
>
>
> Louisa.

messageRe: Sweaty Betty - the final nail in the gentrification coffin?
Posted by Seabag 03 May, 2016 16:18

Louisa

Guide me to your planing portal

This is not a euphemism

messageRe: Sweaty Betty - the final nail in the gentrification coffin?
Posted by DulwichFox 03 May, 2016 16:34

The plans show a seating plan..
Any branded chain would have their own seating plan that fits in with their layout style.

Looks like M&S killed off Iceland and now looks to of had some influence on the closure of Londis.

Anyway this is the Sweaty Betty thread so off topic..

DulwichFox

messageRe: Sweaty Betty - the final nail in the gentrification coffin?
Posted by LondonMix 03 May, 2016 16:44

What on earth are you on about? How has M&S done anything to Londis?

Also, if the idea that this is being developed for a chain, surely the chain would be involved in the design phase to make sure its appropriate.

messageRe: Sweaty Betty - the final nail in the gentrification coffin?
Posted by rahrahrah 03 May, 2016 16:46

Londis is of course a chain. The replacement may be a chain, or possibly an independent. I'm not sure what the point is either way. There is no shortage of convenience stores on LL, so I don't know why anyone woudl be particularly exercised about the change without even knowing what's going to be there. Is it evidence the ED is dying. Not really.

messageRe: Sweaty Betty - the final nail in the gentrification coffin?
Posted by Cassel 03 May, 2016 16:48

I agree with rahrahrah - I also like the diversity of this part of SE London and it is only a small outlet. Is this a good time to mention that there's a special competition on the Sweaty Betty East Dulwich Facebook page? Don't shoot the messenger I just thought anybody who is interested/likes their clothes might like to check it out.

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