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The East Dulwich Forum
The Bishop, The EDT, The Great Exhibition, the Actress or another?
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messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by Loz 08 February, 2017 17:13

Marketing Trump and Farage as anti-establishment is, in a frightening way, pure genius. A billionaire and an ex-stock broker? Anti-establishment? How the hell did they pull that off?

Still, I'm sure there are those out there who drink stuff like Innocent Smoothies, eat Ben and Jerry's ice-cream and breakfast on their Dorset muesli to stick it up the big corporates like Coca-Cola, Unilever and Associated Foods.

The world is full of gullible suckers... and they know it.

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by rendelharris 08 February, 2017 17:35

There was a great caption to the celebratory photograph of the two doing the rounds: "A millionaire and a billionaire standing in a gold-plated lift in a tower named after the billionaire claiming they've taken on the elite and won."

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by 08 February, 2017 17:49

The thing is I think you guys are missing the point on this - especially with Farag ( but I think the same applies to Trump probably). It is really not about who they actually are at all - brits aren't idiots about Farage it's blatantly obvious his background when he opens his mouth (which he does far too frequently) the clothes he wears etc and he never tries to hide/disguise his background....it's just not an issue in the way, I'm struggling not to be accused of the same old here, that 'metropoplitans' and 'the left' in general think it is (*see also Labour's failure to hit any traction with their continuous 'posh boys' line with Osbourne/Cameron). It is what they are saying which is anti-establishment, and it genuinely is, as the last few months have absolutely demonstrated.

None of this post is an indicator of support for either of these two to be clear before everyone flys off again but it really is the lack of understanding about this as demonstrated by both of you here that explains why Metro Liberal such as us (yes me included) are wondering what the fook has happened.

Basically Farage is a posh stockbroker who went to public school - the vast majority of UKIP voters know this I suspect.
Trump is a celebrity billionaire - the vast majority of his voters know this. No-one is being hoodwinked. They don't care about the 'messenger' in either case.

You're both barking up the wrong tree....and you are not alone.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2017:02:08:17:50:52 by .

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by Louisa 08 February, 2017 18:03

All these things are just symptoms of a massive vacuum in politics. Race and class play a part, and anyone who denies that need only look at the issues which have consistently been exploited by Trump/Farage, issues which have been exposed and open to extreme rhetoric for decades, because no one in the centre ground has attempted to put forward a logical and reasoned argument about the positives of immigration, whilst also acknowledging the strains disproportionately felt in poorer, mostly working class localities.

Most people who have these fears (founded or unfounded pick your side), don't really care about where Farage or Trump went to school and how big their respective bank balances are, they just see people talking a language they understand which hasn't effectively been communicated by middle of the road politicians. Simple as that really.

Louisa.

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by rendelharris 08 February, 2017 18:15

I agree with most of what you say there - certainly the people who voted for Trumpage (my new compound proper noun) are perfectly aware of their status and, as you say, don't care. I think the question which arises is are they genuinely anti-establishment? Farage, possibly, but much of what Trump is doing is helping his own kind - opening up oil pipelines etc. It will be dressed up as helping the working man, and it may create some jobs, but the main beneficiaries will be the CEOs and major shareholders. 'Twas ever thus, of course, but I suspect people are going to find that when push comes to shove "anti-establishment" Trump is not going to pass laws which favour the working person over the billionaire. We shall see. He's already said he favours the US having a low minimum wage and refused calls to set a federal minimum wage, similarly his nominee for Secretary of Labor, Robert Pudzer (a multimillionaire CEO), has said he will not raise the minimum wage and opposes legislating to improve working conditions. Trump's supreme court has several judges noted for their opposition to union rights and collective bargaining. His own record as a businessman is not notable for a regard for workers' rights and fair wages...as with everything at the moment, we shall just have to see, but I suspect the rust belt voters aren't going to find his promises as solid as they were during the campaign (when he was careful to keep it to vague generalisations).

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by red devil 08 February, 2017 18:23

It will be interesting to see how well Macron does in France. So far he's managed to distance himself from the establishment despite in the not too distant past being part of it...

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by rahrahrah 08 February, 2017 20:10

The point is that without the Republican party backing him, it's unlikely Trump would have won. Without Gove and Boris joining the leave campaign and without years of campaigning from many tabloid papers and a significant contingent on the right of the Conservative party, it's arguable whether we'd have got 'Brexit. It's not about Trump or Farage, their background, or personal characteristics, the fact is both campaigns where reliant on either the opportunism or genuine support of 'establishment' politicians.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2017:02:08:20:36:15 by rahrahrah.

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by rendelharris 08 February, 2017 21:40

Good point RRR - obviously there are times when it suits parties of all hues to have a "game changing anti-establishment" figure leading the charge, then once they're in to carry on business as usual.

ETA kind of what, it pains me to admit, they managed under Obama...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2017:02:08:22:00:40 by rendelharris.

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by Alan Medic 09 February, 2017 07:26

So The Donald uses his 'official' twitter account to have a go at the company which has chosen to drop his daughter's fashion line. I didn't see that one coming.

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by nxjen 09 February, 2017 09:08

He has what I believe are called boundary issues.

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by Jenny1 09 February, 2017 09:08

It's a good point well made rahrahrah.

And the follow through on both the Trump and Farage victories is, like their initiation, also primarily about sustaining the establishment (as per that Atlantic Monthly article I linked to).

In the US, Trump is dependent on the ongoing support of a Republican Party which sees an opportunity to institute long cherished policies that wouldn't have been possible under a Democrat President. Without this support Trump would be unlikely to remain in office long.

In the UK I see all government policy on Brexit since the referendum as being about keeping the Conservative Party intact and ensuring their victory at the next election. Long term thinking on national interest doesn't feature.

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by nxjen 09 February, 2017 09:11

It's like DNA is coded to survive regardless of any collateral damage

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by Jenny1 09 February, 2017 09:31

.....though it would be quite fun if Melania Trump brought down the Daily Mail.

[www.bbc.co.uk]

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by nxjen 09 February, 2017 09:54

... and if indeed the Daily Mail brought down Melania Trump and her husband

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by Jenny1 09 February, 2017 09:57

...I would see this as a 'win win' situation, whatever the outcome.

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by JohnL 09 February, 2017 10:13

anyway in order to rival Trump, David Davis apparently had a few
drinks, tried to kiss Diane Abbott and got told where to go.

[www.telegraph.co.uk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2017:02:09:10:13:48 by JohnL.

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by Loz 09 February, 2017 10:37

Blimey. How many drinks do you have to have before that seems like a good idea??

Mind you, there is a world of difference between an ironic kiss on the cheeks and the full-on tonsil-wobbler.

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by Jenny1 09 February, 2017 11:03

At the risk of veering miles off thread topic....I suspect this was less about the release of long suppressed passions, and more a 'gotcha' moment.

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by rahrahrah 10 February, 2017 14:50

He has told demonstrable lies over and over again, and then furiously attacked anyone who challenges them. He has attacked the media relentlessly and claims that more people trust his statements than they do the media (some polls indicate he may be right on this). He uses his twitter account to intimidate individuals who disagree with him. His tweets reign down upon their target a deluge of death threats and harassment from his supporters. This is how you close down opposition voices in the modern era. He is now setting about using similar tactics against the judiciary.

For those worried about the increasingly autocratic nature of Trump, think about what it is we should be watching for. It's not the familiar form of autocracy which would be recognisable from the middle of the last century. The beginnings of Autocracy today, looks like this.

Trump is dismantling opposition, not formally, because we've built systems to stop that, but he is doing it in new ways more subtle and more suitable to today's era. It still uses intimidation, fear and propaganda, but with the tools available today, tools of new media, alternative facts and gangs of angry internet trolls.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was 2017:02:10:15:23:36 by rahrahrah.

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by nxjen 10 February, 2017 15:07

I am heartened though that there are people willing to stand up to him and to use the law to do so, that the judiciary have asserted their independence to remind him he has to act within the law. Early days I know.

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by jaywalker 10 February, 2017 20:50

It is not that Trump is currently totalitarian. It is that he is probing the possibility.

This is why we should not welcome him here.

BTW how is May different?

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by 11 February, 2017 08:15

if you think May isn't different from Trump....well. If you think May is probing the possibility of totalitarianism then you really are in a delusional echo chamber - people, especially on the left, really need to get a grip about politics when it doesn't agree with their world view. You can hate the tories, you can think they are divisive and mean and bad for society - but they are NOT totalitarian. That's kindergarten student politics.

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by jaywalker 11 February, 2017 11:08

, I am glad you do not think Trump and May are Totalitarian as that is exactly what I wrote: 'it is not that Trump is currently totalitarian'. I think sometimes in your rush to trade insults (now I am a child I see) you simply don't pause to read what people write.

It is interesting I think to consider what kind of policies lead in the direction of totalitarianism (something we should perhaps always be vigilant about). I have had enough of Trump but briefly for me these move in the wrong direction:

Cancelling refugee rights Cancelling promises on child refugee rights
Calling judges 'so-called' Not standing up for the independence of the judiciary after the High Court ruling
Building walls against migrants Building walls in Calais to stop migrants
Surrounding yourself with an inner circle of acolytes and giving them extra-ordinary power (powers normally held by ministers or the civil service - the case in both countries)

To add to this, the surveillance society and the May sponsored Internet Bill that has just become law (no idea what Trump will do with this as he has fallen out with the security services).

BTW I see that we will now be required to surrender our EDF passwords to immigration control travelling to the USA. Not at all a worrying development, of course.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2017:02:11:11:09:09 by jaywalker.

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by nxjen 11 February, 2017 12:49

Well no, they're just considering asking for online identities, i.e. Usernames. Though why US immigration think anyone who has posted rabid anti American messages on Facebook is going to meekly complete a form with details of their online alter egos is a bit strange.

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by Jenny1 11 February, 2017 12:58

nxjen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Though why US
> immigration think anyone who has posted rabid anti
> American messages on Facebook is going to meekly
> complete a form with details of their online alter
> egos is a bit strange.


That's a key criticism I've heard of this too. It's another one of these policies that's not actually designed to achieve anything.

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by Jenny1 11 February, 2017 13:00

A good, brief analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of Mike Flynn, written back in December.

[www.theatlantic.com]

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by Loz 11 February, 2017 17:15

jaywalker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> , I am glad you do not think Trump and May are
> Totalitarian as that is exactly what I wrote: 'it
> is not that Trump is currently totalitarian'. I
> think sometimes in your rush to trade insults (now
> I am a child I see) you simply don't pause to read
> what people write.

Hmmm. Your not reading very well, yourself. Or even reading yourself very well. You wrote...
Quote:
It is not that Trump is currently totalitarian. It is that he is probing the possibility. [...] BTW how is May different?

Quids wrote...
Quote:
if you think May isn't different from Trump....well. If you think May is probing the possibility of totalitarianism then you really are in a delusional echo chamber

So, Quids' summary of what you wrote seems pretty accurate.

As for the rest of your 'evidence' of May's 'totalitarianism', it is pretty weak, to say the least. I think you need a better understanding what totalitarianism actually means.

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by jaywalker 11 February, 2017 18:52

Loz, I know we live in a post-truth world, but wrote:

"You can hate the tories, you can think they are divisive and mean and bad for society - but they are NOT totalitarian. That's kindergarten student politics."

Now, why did you not refer to that in your post about my being unable to read?

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by Loz 11 February, 2017 21:23

jaywalker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Loz, I know we live in a post-truth world, but wrote:
>
> "You can hate the tories, you can think they are divisive and mean and bad for society - but they
> are NOT totalitarian. That's kindergarten student politics."
>
> Now, why did you not refer to that in your post about my being unable to read?

Let's look at that part in its entirety...

"people, especially on the left, really need to get a grip about politics when it doesn't agree with their world view. You can hate the tories, you can think they are divisive and mean and bad for society - but they are NOT totalitarian. That's kindergarten student politics."

See, Quids wasn't talking about you in particular... he was talking about the people in general and the left in general. That's why I didn't refer to it... because it wasn't talking specifically about you. You just seem - erroneously - to think he is.

So, yes, you are still seemingly unable to read.

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by jaywalker 12 February, 2017 10:47

Well enough of this. Two 'you's in two successive sentences in one paragraph, the first explicitly indexing me, but you say the second refers explicitly not to me? Crikey.

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