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messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by Saffron 02 June, 2017 10:43

A few months old but still relevant: [www.latimes.com]

Trump could punish liberal states like California by withholding federal payments. But California could counter by withholding federal taxes, or adding state tax to imports, such as vehicles that do not comply to CA's strict emissions laws.

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by Jenny1 02 June, 2017 10:55

Thanks Saffron. Very interesting piece. So yes - with California and New York City in a leadership role, we might be entering an era of reduced US Federal control and increased State and City power. From a historical/political perspective that would be fascinating.

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by Jenny1 02 June, 2017 12:51

...just saw reference to the fact that Macron referred to 'the US Federal Government' withdrawing from the Paris Agreement, not 'the US'. He's a sharp guy. I wish we had politicians in this country with similar mental capacities.

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by red devil 02 June, 2017 13:38

Macron is doing well at home since his election. There was a fear that as he had no established party as such, he would be a lame duck President when it came to getting his reforms through the French parliament. But his En Marche! movement is now expected to do very well in their up-coming elections, giving him a clear majority to carry them out...[uk.reuters.com]

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by Jenny1 02 June, 2017 13:59

Yes. And he looks happy to job-share the 'Leader of the Free World' role with Merkel and Trudeau.

It'll be really interesting to see how far France changes. That France is essentially 'unchangeable' seems to have been a mantra for a very long time. It can't hold true forever.

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by keano77 02 June, 2017 14:59

red devil Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Macron is doing well at home since his election.
> There was a fear that as he had no established
> party as such, he would be a lame duck President
> when it came to getting his reforms through the
> French parliament. But his En Marche! movement is
> now expected to do very well in their up-coming
> elections, giving him a clear majority to carry
> them
> out...[uk.reuters.com]
> ction-poll-idUKKBN18S5M3


Wait and see. I think the unions might have something to say about down-sizing its bloated civil service and ending the 35-hour working week.

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by malumbu 02 June, 2017 18:06

WTF HTF can the US use anti-science to pull out of the climate change agreement. Arrogant, ignorant, small minded, shockiing.

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by keano77 02 June, 2017 18:52

malumbu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WTF HTF can the US use anti-science to pull out of
> the climate change agreement. Arrogant, ignorant,
> small minded, shockiing.


Not necessarily. It's generally accepted that the Paris Accord, while being the best international agreement we have so far, will do very little to solve climate change.

At the moment we have green technology subsidised by tax payers that doesn't work. Wind turbines that need to be turned off if it's too windy. Solar panels that cost more to produce and run than the energy they provide.

It amuses me that Facebook and Apple are pretending to be outraged. Between them they have probably been responsible or more electricity consumption (in the West at least) manufacturing tablets and phones, constantly recharging them, to engage in social media.

Resist the knee-jerk reaction malumbu.

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by rendelharris 02 June, 2017 19:30

keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Not necessarily. It's generally accepted that the
> Paris Accord, while being the best international
> agreement we have so far, will do very little to
> solve climate change.

What's your definition of "generally accepted"? Every nation in the world has signed up to it except (now) the USA, Syria and Nicaragua. That's pretty general, really.

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by rendelharris 02 June, 2017 19:36

keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It amuses me that Facebook and Apple are
> pretending to be outraged. Between them they have
> probably been responsible or more electricity
> consumption (in the West at least) manufacturing
> tablets and phones, constantly recharging them, to
> engage in social media.

Oh, and what utter nonsense. Yeah, global warming is down to people using mobile telephones for social media, not two centuries of carbon belching factories and petrol engines. "More electricity consumption..." Than what?

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by keano77 02 June, 2017 21:36

Your words not mine Rendel. I merely cited electricity as an example.

You Rendel may, or may not, have got up this morning to an alarm on a clock radio, boiled a kettle, run a bath or showered, put the news on the telly, did some vacuuming, cooked some lunch, put washing in a washing machine, crockery in a dishwasher, worked on a laptop, charged a mobile or tablet etc etc. Nothing wrong with doing any of that, that's what we do in the First World.

But, think about it, your use of resources is probably more than a whole village in India who don't have electricity.

Now, India is modernising fast. 300m Indians who don't currently have access to electricity (Cited BBC today) will (hopefully) one day get it together with the white and brown goods, mobiles, laptops and tablets.

This is just one aspect of global warming, use of scarce resources etc. The Paris climate agreement will do little to address it. If Trump can negotiate a better agreement he will be doing the planet a favour.

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by rendelharris 02 June, 2017 21:56

keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
If Trump can
> negotiate a better agreement he will be doing the
> planet a favour.

Yes, that's exactly what the great man is doing, withdrawing from a globally agreed programme to reduce carbon emissions in order to impose a better one. Not to allow US industry free rein to pollute to its heart's content without regard for the consequences. You seriously believe that's his motive? Get oop t'street lad.

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by keano77 02 June, 2017 22:02

I see you've conveniently overlooked the carbon emissions that provided your electricity today Rendel.

Not easy to be a sanctimonious green is it?

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by rendelharris 02 June, 2017 22:25

But very easy to be a foolish rightwing libertarian, clearly. Do you actually think that President Trump is going to put in place a better agreement than the Paris accord or not? Don't give me some old guff about whether I had a shower today or not, answer a grownup question.

By the way, in response to your nonsense above, I cycled and walked everywhere I needed to go today, I don't have a TV, I have a wind-up alarm clock, I use a broom not a vacuum cleaner, I don't have a dishwasher, I get my electricity (which I use sparingly) from the greenest supplier possible despite the fact that it's not the cheapest - don't judge everyone by your own standards. Of course, to you that's being sanctimonious - a cheap and stupid word used by people who don't like the idea that other people might make more effort to be environmentally sound than them. Ooh aren't I holier than thou - damn' right I am.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2017:06:02:22:45:27 by rendelharris.

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by Jenny1 02 June, 2017 22:32

keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If Trump can
> negotiate a better agreement he will be doing the
> planet a favour.

But he won't though, will he? Why on earth would that be a priority for this administration?

Mike Pence (quoted by Fox News) 'For some reason, this issue of climate change has emerged as a paramount issue for the left - in this country and around the world'.

They have no interest in the issue at all. As far as they're concerned it's not even 'a thing'.

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by keano77 02 June, 2017 22:43

Steady Rendel, calm now, calm.

I admire your spartan lifestyle, which is of course the point here. If the First World really wants to reduce carbon emissions we need a drastic lifestyle change to allow the rest of the world to use the resources we've dominated so they can modernise and improve the lot of their populations. I fear though the West is not prepared to adopt 1950s-type lifestyles.

Trump's point is it's all very well letting China, India, Brazil etc burn fossil fuels to modernise but it can only do so if the West reduces its emissions and this is hindering the US economy. He was voted in to put America first and the Paris agreement is seen as unfair to the US.

To answer your question whether I think Trump will put in place a better agreement than the Paris Accord my answer is no. How can he? Group think has ganged up against him.

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by rendelharris 02 June, 2017 22:50

keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> To answer your question whether I think Trump will
> put in place a better agreement than the Paris
> Accord my answer is no. How can he? Group think
> has ganged up against him.

So you seriously believe that the man who is on record as stating that he thinks man-made global climate change is a hoax made up by China really wants to do something about global carbon emissions, but he can't because of "group think", whatever that may be? Seriously?

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by keano77 02 June, 2017 23:00

I don't agree with him that it's a hoax. It's a very serious problem. The Paris agreement is a well intentioned step in the right direction but is not the solution.

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by rendelharris 02 June, 2017 23:05

keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't agree with him that it's a hoax. It's a
> very serious problem. The Paris agreement is a
> well intentioned step in the right direction but
> is not the solution.

Glad to hear it. But the Paris accord is the only step in the right direction - however flawed it might be - the world's managed to currently agree on, and the Donald has pulled out of it, and he clearly has no intention of putting a better agreement in place, so I don't see how anyone can view it as anything but a retrogade step, can you? Glad to continue debating this tomorrow, for now goodnight and sleep well.

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by malumbu 02 June, 2017 23:19

Car occupancy is reducing. That is when we drive a car, there is less likely to be another person in it. Now there may be a good reason for that, I can't think of one. The only reason I can think of is that many people would rather drive on their own. I see enough of it - why are both of you driving to so and so event when you live next door to each other. "Oh the convenience so I can do x and y".

Not that we are a patch on the US in our selfish attitude and we can give a pat on our own backs in the metropolis, particularly the young, who are ditching cars or sharing ownership.

Anyway until we all take a responsible attitude we need big governments to do big government things like stay in the Paris accord, stay in the big EU club (what? we let the people decide? Which idiot was that?.... some things are too big to be decided by the people).

Light the fuse on howls about how anti-democracy I am.

Thought I'd take the heat of Rendel for a moment.

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by Green Goose 03 June, 2017 21:34

rendelharris Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> By the way, in response to your nonsense above, I
> cycled and walked everywhere I needed to go today,
> I don't have a TV, I have a wind-up alarm clock, I
> use a broom not a vacuum cleaner,

What about the car that you mentioned in a previous post? Or is it a magic carpet that is carbon-neutral?

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by rendelharris 04 June, 2017 06:01

Green Goose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rendelharris Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > By the way, in response to your nonsense above,
> I
> > cycled and walked everywhere I needed to go
> today,
> > I don't have a TV, I have a wind-up alarm clock,
> I
> > use a broom not a vacuum cleaner,
>
> What about the car that you mentioned in a
> previous post? Or is it a magic carpet that is
> carbon-neutral?

Not mine, it's my wife's (a Smart ForFour which does 70MPG and has auto stop-start, not quite a magic carpet but getting there) - I don't drive and ride in it once a week to help take her mother her shopping at weekends.

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by uncleglen 04 June, 2017 14:33

just goes to prove- if you can afford it you can be 'green' too

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by rendelharris 04 June, 2017 17:25

uncleglen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> just goes to prove- if you can afford it you can
> be 'green' too

It cost six grand second hand and she got a grand trade-in on our previous Smart we'd had for ten years - I do count myself very lucky but it's not exactly a new Porsche Carerra now is it?

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by JohnL 05 June, 2017 10:05

Trump hates Sadiq Khan but he jumped the gun with his tweet on Sunday.

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by Jenny1 05 June, 2017 16:03

Good Masha Gessen piece on how Trump's incompetence and the establishment of autocracy are two sides of the same coin.

[mobile.nytimes.com]

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by JohnL 05 June, 2017 16:36

Latest tweeting from the President

“Pathetic excuse by London mayor Sadiq Khan, who had to think fast on his ‘no reason to be alarmed’ statement. [Mainstream media] is working hard to sell it!”

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by JoeLeg 05 June, 2017 16:49

I honestly don't understand why the President of the United States gives any kind of a @#$%& about the Mayor of London, or Paris, or Tokyo or Vladivostock or anywhere else?

I lot of Trumps tweets can be seen as part of a larger political game, but this just seems retarded.

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by Jenny1 05 June, 2017 17:41

Even he knows that Sadiq Khan outclasses him by miles, and he can't bear it.

messageRe: A general thread to discuss Trump
Posted by JohnL 05 June, 2017 17:47

Trump believes that originally Sadiq Khan said that we should "not be alarmed by terrorists" then retroactively changed it to "we should not be alarmed by more police on our streets" and every single mainstream media in the world also changed the quote to cover up for him.

rather than he (trump) misquoted.

(whistles and walks away quietly)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was 2017:06:05:17:47:58 by JohnL.

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