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messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by diable rouge January 16, 12:23PM

JoeLeg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yeah, says Farage who has never had to actually
> form policy, lead a party in actual power, or in
> any way be responsible for anything other than
> protesting against existing situations.
>
> Easy to yell when you aren’t the one having to
> make decisions. He’s never had to make any
> decision of consequence in his political life.

Instead of wheeling him out for jingoistic soundbites, journalists should be taking him to task as to how he managed to lead a party who's sole aim was to leave the EU, yet never had a plan as to how that would be implemented. Ditto the DUP saying they want a hard Brexit but no hard border, the two are incompatible.

Whichever Labour 'strategist' came up with the plan of ''we'll keep triggering no confidence motions in the Gov until we get an election'', needs to take a look at a calendar... [twitter.com]

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by diable rouge January 16, 12:38PM

Jules-and-Boo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It would be ludicrous for her to forced out or
> call a 2nd Ref.

Extremely unlikely she will lose a No-Confidence vote brought about by the opposition. The only reason I can see that happening is if No Deal looked very likely to happen unless the Gov was brought down...(Opinion)
She also can't be forced out by her own party. After winning the confidence vote brought about by her own party, they're stuck with her as leader for the next 12 months...(Fact)


> A General Election would also not
> serve any purpose other than to create more
> instability. These would only delay the inevitable
> fact that a decision needs to be made and that is
> to exit the EU.

That isn't a 'fact', it's your opinion...

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by Jules-and-Boo January 16, 12:46PM

Clearly this is not fact - there is very little 'fact' to what will happen - it's all conjecture.

If I was a betting man, I know where I would put my money.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by DulwichFox January 16, 12:58PM

There MIGHT be a general Election.

Corbyn MIGHT win.

If he does he will Kiss Brexit better and everything will be Wonderful....
... and everyone will live happily ever after.

DulwichFox

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by Jules-and-Boo January 16, 01:05PM

it is indeed possible.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by diable rouge January 16, 02:38PM

Jules-and-Boo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> If I was a betting man, I know where I would put
> my money.

Go on, you know you want to...[twitter.com]

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by JohnL January 16, 02:47PM

diable rouge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jules-and-Boo Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > If I was a betting man, I know where I would
> put
> > my money.
>
> Go on, you know you want
> to...[twitter.com]
> 18256792834049

It won't pay if there's an extension obviously.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by sjsl January 16, 03:29PM

I'm a bit baffled by Corbin et al wanting a GE... although I was a supporter and helped put him where he is now I won't vote Labour if they don't change their 'Brexit is the will of the people' stance. Am I alone on this?

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by diable rouge January 16, 03:32PM

JohnL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cross Party Talks without Corbyn hmmm.
>
> They may not like each other much but that isn't
> going to work (May seems to want to peel away
> Yvette Cooper and the heads of committees)

It would help if Corbyn had a Brexit policy to discuss...

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by Blah Blah January 16, 04:00PM

Corbyn wants a GE because he misguidedly thinks he will win it (even though the polling says he won't and his personal ratings are way down from where they need to be to look like being the next PM - always behind May in fact, and she is not in great shape either). Political expediency is the reason we were given this referendum, and political expediency is shaping much of what is going on in Parliament right now. Both main parties have half an eye on the next GE and both parties need both leave voters and remain voters to vote for them to win it. THAT is the problem, compounded by the referendum not delivering a definitive result either way. Two years have been completely wasted, with no effort to find consensus either within Parliament or among the people. I can see no other way to get a deal through the House than a 2nd referendum right now, and who knows how that will turn out.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by keano77 January 16, 04:16PM

Blah Blah said

“...compounded by the referendum not delivering a definitive result either way...”

????

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by diable rouge January 16, 04:41PM

Talk of the Devil Farage, more of this please journos...[twitter.com]

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by diable rouge January 16, 04:43PM

This weeks political buzz word...pivot

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by JohnL January 16, 04:57PM

Boy George Osborn comment in the Standard

"Alongside the worst manifesto and worst conference speech in history, Mrs May has now added to her list of prime ministerial achievements the biggest government defeat in history."

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by rahrahrah January 16, 05:13PM

Wasn't he part of the cabinet that brought on this whole omnishambles? If I was him, I would be keeping very quiet on the subject of brexit.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by diable rouge January 16, 05:26PM

He has admitted in the past he was "not keen" on holding an EU referendum and had only gone along with it to support Mr Cameron. [www.bbc.co.uk]

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by JoeLeg January 16, 06:15PM

Both Osbourne and May told CMD that it was a bad idea, but Dave was so scared of UKIP (and utterly convinced he’d win) that he overruled them.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by uncleglen January 16, 07:48PM

diable rouge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This weeks political buzz word...pivot

I'd like to tell the EU to 'swivel'

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by JoeLeg January 16, 09:06PM

uncleglen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> diable rouge Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > This weeks political buzz word...pivot
>
> I'd like to tell the EU to 'swivel'


You did. You had your vote. Do you not understand that?

It turns out the government is busy messing it all up. Don’t worry though, you’ll probably get No Deal, and then you can cross your fingers and hope it works out. Because if it doesn’t people like you are going to be hated.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by Passiflora January 16, 11:47PM

JoeLeg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> uncleglen Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > diable rouge Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > This weeks political buzz word...pivot
> >
> > I'd like to tell the EU to 'swivel'
>
>
> You did. You had your vote. Do you not understand
> that?
>
> It turns out the government is busy messing it all
> up. Don’t worry though, you’ll probably get No
> Deal, and then you can cross your fingers and hope
> it works out. Because if it doesn’t people like
> you are going to be hated.


That's told you, uncleglen!

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by JohnL January 17, 11:48AM

She's brought back another vote for 29th.

I think she's getting fixated on her own deal.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by malumbu January 17, 12:04PM

Does 51% count as the will of the people? Can we please use other terminology. Obviously May/Leadsome/Farage/RM and the like can't campaign on "a small majority of the British population" but the definitive use of "we" "the British Public" and the like made a momentous decision etc really winds me up.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by rendelharris January 17, 12:20PM

malumbu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does 51% count as the will of the people? Can we
> please use other terminology. Obviously
> May/Leadsome/Farage/RM and the like can't campaign
> on "a small majority of the British population"
> but the definitive use of "we" "the British
> Public" and the like made a momentous decision etc
> really winds me up.

They can't even say that - the number who voted Leave are only 35% of the adult population. As Robert Harris (no relation, sadly) said, "How did a stable parliamentary democracy, granted a unique set of favourable opt-outs with the largest trading bloc in the world, including on the single currency and travel, throw it all up in the air on the basis of 52-48 yes/no vote in a referendum – a margin not normally wide enough to change the constitution of the average golf club?"

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by Jules-and-Boo January 17, 12:40PM

RH - if 35% of the population voted Leave - what was the % for Remain? Lower, clearly.

So - neither are in the majority. Which means the by default that the majority of people don't actually care.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by diable rouge January 17, 01:09PM

You always have a large chunk of the voting population who for whatever reason don't bother to vote. I don't think even Blair's landslide of '97 could claim to have the 'will of the people' when you base it as a percentage of the total voting population. I think you need to be getting towards a 'super majority' of around 66% i.e two thirds of those that voted, before anyone can claim 'the will of the people'. It's been used as a catchy soundbite by the Gov to justify the catastrofuck we find ourselves in ...

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by keano77 January 17, 03:19PM

Jules-and-Boo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> RH - if 35% of the population voted Leave - what
> was the % for Remain? Lower, clearly.
>
> So - neither are in the majority. Which means the
> by default that the majority of people don't
> actually care.

I’m not quite sure what Rendel means by

“...the number who voted Leave are only 35% of the adult population...”

But if we confine ourselves to registered voters, on my sums 72.21% actually voted. Of those 37.44% voted leave and 34.71% voted to remain

I’m not sure what this clarification adds to the current impasse except perhaps to question the siren voices who claim large support for a second referendum.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by rendelharris January 17, 03:45PM

keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I’m not quite sure what Rendel means by
>
> “...the number who voted Leave are only 35% of the
> adult population...”
>
> But if we confine ourselves to registered voters,
> on my sums 72.21% actually voted. Of those 37.44%
> voted leave and 34.71% voted to remain
>
> I’m not sure what this clarification adds to the
> current impasse except perhaps to question the
> siren voices who claim large support for a second
> referendum.

Is it that difficult? What I mean by those who voted leave comprising 35% of the adult population is that those who voted leave comprise 35% of the adult population. 35% does not represent "the will of the people" any more than the slightly lower percentage for remain does - it represents a snapshot of a particular point in time after an awful lot of lies had been told and election laws breached. And on that basis a hysterical clique of halfwitted Tory Europhobes who still seem to think we're fighting WWII are going to change the history and economy of this country for ever, and for the worse.

Just to remind you, there was no legal obligation to hold a referendum. There was no legal obligation to make it first past the post. There is no legal obligation to follow its recommendation: it was an advisory referendum and has no legal mandate. So if you want to leave Europe, well done, you got lucky, hope you're happy. But don't bother with the "will of the people" bollocks as if not leaving would be akin to smashing up the Holy Grail, because it isn't.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by keano77 January 17, 04:13PM

Rendel wrote:

“...Is it that difficult? What I mean by those who voted leave comprising 35% of the adult population is that those who voted leave comprise 35% of the adult population...”

The ‘adult population’ is a lazy use of words in this context. It includes those ineligible to vote at the time (EU citizens etc).

Secondly on these figures 35% is incorrect

United Kingdom European Union membership referendum
Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?
Location
United Kingdom (including Gibraltar)
Date
23 June 2016
Results
Votes %
Leave 17,410,742 51.89%
Remain 16,141,241 48.11%
Valid votes 33,551,983 99.92%
Invalid or blank votes 25,359 0.08%
Total votes 33,577,342 100.00%
Registered voters/turnout 46,500,001

[en.m.wikipedia.org]

I make no comment on your other points which appear to have been written in a stressful frame of mind.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by JohnL January 17, 04:18PM

Mr Corbyn has written a letter telling all Labour Members of Parliament telling them not to speak to Mrs May until she takes no deal off the table. Hilary Benn and Yvette Cooper still attended today in there capacities of chairpersons of cross parliamentary committees.

In some ways I agree with him as she's acting deplorably but we're all meant to communicate to improve things.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by rendelharris January 17, 04:24PM

keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I make no comment on your other points which
> appear to have been written in a stressful frame
> of mind.

Would you like to borrow a torch, Keano? It must be pretty dark when you're that far up your own fundament.

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