Forum Sponsors

https://www.gokayfitness.com/class

www.nannycentral.co.uk

www.inshutters.co.uk

Advertise here

The East Dulwich Forum
The Bishop, The EDT, The Great Exhibition, the Actress or another?
Goto Page: PreviousFirst...5253545556575859606162...LastNext
Current Page: 57 of 128
messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by JohnL 04 October, 2018 07:48

Sky News this morning listing the allegations against the Russian GRU as the US presidential election, attacks against business etc.

No Brexit though - that was obviously untouched. If we want to include what the Russians meddled in we can't cherry pick.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by keano77 04 October, 2018 08:54

Think about it JohnL. If the ruskies wanted to cause trouble they’d be helping the remainer cause to subvert the democratic result of the referendum.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by diable rouge 04 October, 2018 09:38

Think about it keano, the russki's anti-democratic aim is to undermine the EU and NATO as it sees them as a major threat to it's sphere of influence in Eastern Europe. Covert support for the PV would undermine that. If the UK doesn't Brexit it's a massive boost for the EU and democracy...#biggerfishtofry

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by JoeLeg 04 October, 2018 09:48

keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Think about it JohnL. If the ruskies wanted to
> cause trouble they’d be helping the remainer cause
> to subvert the democratic result of the
> referendum.


No, the Russians want a weakened EU, they have no interest in overturning Brexit.

ETA - and please stop associating all remain voters with your theory they someone is trying to take away your victory. That kind of thinking belongs on the comment pages of the Express and the Mail.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2018:10:04:09:50:42 by JoeLeg.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by JohnL 04 October, 2018 10:00

LOL I don't think I could undermine the referendum alone however many times I tweet Jeremy Hunt - that's @jeremy_hunt smiling smiley

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by keano77 04 October, 2018 10:13

DR and JL

The ruskies want to weaken the EU as well. They’re not daft. A multi-pronged approach.

If I was asked to help Russia to sow discord (a sort of Mr Blobby edits the Sun away day) then a simple back of an envelope strategy would include:

- help remainers try to overturn the referendum result
- help the Visegard group’s gripes against the EU
- support the boat people to increase tensions in Southern Europe
- support Varadkar on the border issue and make him feel important
- support Italy’s populist government
- support Catalan independence

All this before lunchtime

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by malumbu 04 October, 2018 10:31

They work 9-5 trolling to undermine democracy in the Ukraine and any desire to join the EU. As well as logging on and off in office hours, they also take off public holidays. That is not anecdotal that is from official sources. Sounds like a good job, perhaps a number of our trolls here could apply to the GRU.

Slightly more sophisticated than this: [www.bbc.co.uk]

Ironic that the UK is leaving the EU but believes it a good thing for the Ukraine.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by diable rouge 04 October, 2018 10:43

keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> - help remainers try to overturn the referendum
> result

But if successful that would be a massive positive effect on the EU if the UK doesn't Brexit. The russki's want to weaken and undermine the EU and NATO, not strengthen them...

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by keano77 04 October, 2018 10:50

diable rouge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> keano77 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > - help remainers try to overturn the referendum
> > result
>
> But if successful that would be a massive positive
> effect on the EU if the UK doesn't Brexit. The
> russki's want to weaken and undermine the EU and
> NATO, not strengthen them...

Possibly DR, but it would fracture democracy in Britain.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by rendelharris 04 October, 2018 10:56

keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> DR and JL
>
> The ruskies want to weaken the EU as well. They’re
> not daft. A multi-pronged approach.
>
> If I was asked to help Russia to sow discord (a
> sort of Mr Blobby edits the Sun away day) then a
> simple back of an envelope strategy would
> include:
>
> - help remainers try to overturn the referendum
> result

Ah, so effectively anyone supporting a second referendum is helping Russia undermine our country? Golly, it all seems so obvious now you say it...

In fact, Russia has both openly and covertly supported Brexit: [www.theguardian.com]

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by JohnL 04 October, 2018 10:57

As far as I can see Britain is already fractured - the Remain supporters aren't backing down anytime soon and will be encouraged by the EU.

The only way out if Brexit goes ahead is for a hugely successful economy - because if we're rich we won't care that much. If we're poor I dread to think what will happen.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by diable rouge 04 October, 2018 11:04

keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Possibly DR, but it would fracture democracy in
> Britain.

No possibly about it, it definitely would.
Our democracy wouldn't be fractured, I'd argue a PV strengthens it, however it would sow political discord within the UK, but there are other ways they can do that without strengthening the EU...

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by JohnL 04 October, 2018 11:20

Some of this is becoming incredibly personal mind you, there seems to be a lot of "when you go to jail" flying around from both sides (and by sides I mean groups who seem to be working on this full time).

Carole Cadwaladr after returning to twitter from a break seems to be in personal feuds with "The bad boys of Brexit" and Isabel Oakshotte.

[twitter.com]

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by JohnL 04 October, 2018 11:28

Guy Verhofstadt seems "triggered" too

"On Brexit, we will never accept discrimination based on skills and nationality. We will never accept an extension on article 50. Enough mess has been created by Brexit. Let's stop it! We will never undermine the principles of our Union to rescue the Tory party"

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by keano77 04 October, 2018 11:29

rendelharris Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> keano77 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > DR and JL
> >
> > The ruskies want to weaken the EU as well.
> They’re
> > not daft. A multi-pronged approach.
> >
> > If I was asked to help Russia to sow discord (a
> > sort of Mr Blobby edits the Sun away day) then
> a
> > simple back of an envelope strategy would
> > include:
> >
> > - help remainers try to overturn the referendum
> > result
>
> Ah, so effectively anyone supporting a second
> referendum is helping Russia undermine our
> country? Golly, it all seems so obvious now you
> say it...
>
> In fact, Russia has both openly and covertly
> supported Brexit:
> [www.theguardian.com]
> ian-influence-brexit-vote-detailed-us-senate-repor
> t

That’s very silly of you Rendel. The article you cite does not support open or covert support by Russia for Brexit

“...This opacity, the report suggests, “may have enabled Russian-related money to be directed with insufficient scrutiny to various UK political actors”.

“Investigative journalists have also raised questions about the sources of sudden and possibly illicit wealth that may have been directed to support the Brexit ‘Leave’ campaign.”

May, possibly and May is all supposition.

What was open and overt was a US President interceding on behalf of a no vote. What monetary value would you put on that and why didn’t the electoral commission raise that issue?

Further, given the fiasco of the Kavanaugh/Ford circus recently, the Democrats on the Senate are hardly to be taken seriously.

Edited for spelling



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was 2018:10:04:11:57:56 by keano77.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by JohnL 04 October, 2018 11:39

I put my head in my hands when Obama spoke up ... a real mistake that cost remain votes.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by JoeLeg 04 October, 2018 11:46

keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> diable rouge Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > keano77 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> >
> > > - help remainers try to overturn the
> referendum
> > > result
> >
> > But if successful that would be a massive
> positive
> > effect on the EU if the UK doesn't Brexit. The
> > russki's want to weaken and undermine the EU
> and
> > NATO, not strengthen them...
>
> Possibly DR, but it would fracture democracy in
> Britain.


Russia has far more to gain by damaging the EU, and it’s a much easier target, than to covertly push for something everyone knows is not going to happen anyway.

You can calm down Keano, Putin’s not coming for you.

ETA - It’s also really naive to think that Russia didn’t agitate for a Leave vote in some way or other, but it’s also to be expected. Putin isn’t going to sit back and hope for the best if he can possibly influence the results. I’m not saying it was a game-changer, but every major nation does it. We’ve been interfering in foreign elections for decades if not centuries; why on earth does anyone think Russia wouldn’t have at least had a go?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2018:10:04:11:56:27 by JoeLeg.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by rendelharris 04 October, 2018 12:06

keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> That’s very silly of you Rendel. The article you
> cite does not support open or covert support by
> Russia for Brexit

Really?

"The report adds that although officially the Russian government asserted its neutrality on Brexit, its English-language media outlets RT and Sputnik covered the referendum campaign extensively and offered ‘systematically one-sided coverage’"

"They reference University of Edinburgh research showing more than 400 Russian-run Twitter accounts that had been active in the US election had also been actively posting about Brexit."

"In addition, the senators noted that research conducted by a joint team of experts from the University of California at Berkeley and Swansea University reportedly identified 150,000 Twitter accounts with various Russian ties that disseminated messages about Brexit."

Would you like a lend of my reading glasses?

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by keano77 04 October, 2018 12:32

“...Overall the report breaks little new ground in terms of fresh evidence but says the picture remains incomplete.”

I’ve never met anyone who watches RT or Sputnik and trying to guess how these stations and US Twitter accounts influenced the vote is no more scientific than reading tea leaves.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by rendelharris 04 October, 2018 12:36

keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> “...Overall the report breaks little new ground in
> terms of fresh evidence but says the picture
> remains incomplete.”
>
> I’ve never met anyone who watches RT or Sputnik
> and trying to guess how these stations and US
> Twitter accounts influenced the vote is no more
> scientific than reading tea leaves.

Ah, so you've gone from "no evidence" to admitting there's evidence but you don't think it made a difference?

They are not US Twitter accounts, they are Twitter accounts identified as being run by the Russian government for propaganda purposes that were identified as part of Russia's interference in the US presidential elections and that also were used for pro-Brexit purposes during our referendum.

Seriously, reading glasses, Sainsbury's'll do you a nice pair off the peg for £10.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2018:10:04:12:38:06 by rendelharris.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by fishbiscuits 04 October, 2018 12:38

Alan Medic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> [www.irishtimes.com]
> he-heart-of-political-unionism-lies-a-great-fear-o
> f-betrayal-by-london-1.3650620
>
> This could change things though I don't know to what.

Article was temporarily interesting, before it descended into biblical claptrap.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by keano77 04 October, 2018 13:01

I think you and the Guardian are grasping at straws here Rendel. If you were to add up every article, discussion, tweet, text and opinion expressed in the run up to the referendum you’d find every opinion under the Sun was represented from all quarters, US, Russia, Iran, Islamic State, not to mention 27 EU members.

Is social media potentially damaging to democracies? Yes, given that it fragments people into silos and uses algorithms to feed you information it decides you want. If you rely on Twitter, Facebook or the Guardian to get your news you are ill-informed.

What malign forces are encouraging a People’s Vote? Bet you don’t see an article purporting to examine that in the Guardian

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by Alan Medic 04 October, 2018 13:31

fishbiscuits Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Alan Medic Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> [www.irishtimes.com]
>
> >
> he-heart-of-political-unionism-lies-a-great-fear-o
>
> > f-betrayal-by-london-1.3650620
> >
> > This could change things though I don't know to
> what.
>
> Article was temporarily interesting, before it
> descended into biblical claptrap.

THe DUP specialise in biblical claptrap.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by JoeLeg 04 October, 2018 14:12

keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> What malign forces are encouraging a People’s
> Vote? Bet you don’t see an article purporting to
> examine that in the Guardian


So you’re open to the idea that there are ‘malign forces’ trying to overturn the referendum (entirely possible, although they’re wasting their effort), but not to the chance that Putin decided to stick his oar in somehow?

As I said, naive.

Just because it wasn’t the tipping point, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Sure you don’t need me to find you a list of occasions when governments have clandestinely interfered with another nations internal affairs for their own purposes.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by JohnL 04 October, 2018 15:16

keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> What malign forces are encouraging a People’s
> Vote? Bet you don’t see an article purporting to
> examine that in the Guardian


Actually Channel 4 (as left/pro EU as you get in the UK) jumped this on @femi_sorry a few weeks ago - as in who is paying for your new shared offices - he admitted it wasn't him obviously.

But if you look at the patrons page - there's a lot of "Rt Hon Lord "

[www.europeanmovement.co.uk]

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by JohnL 07 October, 2018 12:02

You all complained when people went through your rubbish bins but now the rubbish sifters have been proved to be economic geniuses and we were just relics. Bin Sifters have the have the full backing of Michael Gove as he says "Hunt for Gold in other peoples rubbish"


[www.thetimes.co.uk]

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by Alan Medic 11 October, 2018 07:01

Jobs available if you can deal with civil emergencies.

[www.civilservicejobs.service.gov.uk]

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by JohnL 11 October, 2018 10:27

Alan Medic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jobs available if you can deal with civil
> emergencies.
>
> [www.civilservicejobs.service.gov.uk]
> bs.cgi?jcode=1603914

They seem to want excellent administrators rather than a Steven Seagal character to quell these imminent riots smiling smiley

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by JohnL 16 October, 2018 16:14

"The diplomat added: “The truth is… we have clarity now, actually, more clarity than we had in Salzburg. What we have found out in the process leading to this meeting on Wednesday is that it is not going to be so easy to find a deal between the EU and the UK.”

The Prime Minister will once again be barred from the main discussion of Brexit at the summit, and will have to address the 27 leaders ahead of their dinner in a separate room."

It's just ritual humiliation for her.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by keano77 16 October, 2018 17:10

JohnL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "The diplomat added: “The truth is… we have
> clarity now, actually, more clarity than we had in
> Salzburg. What we have found out in the process
> leading to this meeting on Wednesday is that it is
> not going to be so easy to find a deal between the
> EU and the UK.”
>
Translation:

We’ve taken the p*ss a bit too far this time by asking the UK to dismantle itself so that we can keep stuffing our coffers

Goto Page: PreviousFirst...5253545556575859606162...LastNext
Current Page: 57 of 128

Back to top of page
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
Donate                   Terms of use                  Help & FAQs                   Advertise               RSS rss feed               Copyright 2006 - 2018 East Dulwich Forum