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The East Dulwich Forum
The Bishop, The EDT, The Great Exhibition, the Actress or another?
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messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by keano77 12 July, 2017 10:30

The second part wasn't relevant to titch's question of EU impositions so I chose a specific example from the many freely available to people if they are not too lazy to do some research for themselves

Edited to add you need to subtract our annual membership fee from the benefits you quote Rendel



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2017:07:12:10:34:35 by keano77.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by titch juicy 12 July, 2017 10:33

keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The second part wasn't relevant to titch's
> question of EU impositions so I chose a specific
> example from the many freely available to people
> if they are not too lazy to do some research for
> themselves


In that case i'm confused why you think them giving us £26bn a year is an imposition?

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by keano77 12 July, 2017 10:40

It's not £26 Billion titch, you've overlooked our membership fee.

Take that into account and we've hardly got enough out of it to pay for a round of drinks

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by DulwichLondoner 12 July, 2017 10:52

titch juicy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Keano
>
> You've been asked over and over and over and over
> again about ECJ/EU impositions on us, and the ONLY
> things you've come back with are apples and
> bananas.

Exactly!
I reiterate what I said earlier: it beggars belief that Brexiters foam at the mouth about the terrible impositions of the EU, yet when you ask them what these are and why, what piece of dreaded legislation they'll be most anxious to get rid of, their silence is deafening. Mmm, I wonder why that is??

Brexit in the UK is a bit like gun control laws in the US: a topic on which, to the utter disbelief of the rest of the civilised world, it is simply impossible to get the population to think through logically. Sad.

@keano77, you have still not answered about the European scumbags. Yes, there are European criminals, just like there are British ones, but EU citizens in the UK are less likely to be criminals than natives! Any proof of a crime epidemic by Europeans in the UK? What would Brexit change and why? Convicted criminals can already be stopped at the border; people who become criminals here can already be kicked out. Nothing can prevent a non-convict from coming here and committing a crime here, by the way...

Why is it that you cannot substantiate your accusations with a modicum of facts and evidence? Maybe because they're just prejudices based on ideology and not facts? Just a thought...

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by DulwichLondoner 12 July, 2017 10:58

I should also add that, when a country complains about EU regulations, in many cases it complains about regulations it had the power to stop - it simply "forgot" to. Have you been following the news about the failed Italian banks? Well, where on Earth were the Italian politicians when bail-in rules were approved? Is it the EU's fault if Italian politicians were too asleep to notice and speak up?

Also, it's always been quite common, since the dawn of time, to concentrate the anger of a population towards external targets. It's not our fault, it's those nasty neighbours of ours! Aren't Venezuela's problems due to the economic war waged by tha fascist capitalist right? And I could go on and on and on with similar examples. Channeling populist anger towards the EU is no different.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by rendelharris 12 July, 2017 11:05

keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The second part wasn't relevant to titch's
> question of EU impositions so I chose a specific
> example from the many freely available to people
> if they are not too lazy to do some research for
> themselves

Ah, so you chose the specific example saying that EU regulation costs us £33BN but chose to leave off the very next sentence which says it benefits us by £59BN because it wasn't relevant. I see.

> It's not £26 Billion titch, you've overlooked our membership fee.
> Take that into account and we've hardly got enough out of it to pay for a round of drinks

In 2016 our EU membership fee was a net (i.e. after rebate) £13.1BN. I don't know what boozer you drink in but even in East Dulwich £13BN still buys quite a sizeable round.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by rendelharris 12 July, 2017 11:08

titch juicy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> So hold on Rendell, what you're pointing out here
> is that the regulation Keano has higlighted as an
> imposition on us by the EU, actually benefits us
> to the tune of about £26 billion a year?
>
> You shouldn't need to hold Keano's hand through
> this. I'm sure if he'd read past the headline he'd
> have known that.

:-)

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by keano77 12 July, 2017 11:22

Really DulwichLondoner this is becoming tiresome. The following took me about 2 seconds to find.

Revealed: Lithuanian mobsters behind human trafficking gangs organising slaves to shoplift from Scottish stores

[www.dailyrecord.co.uk]

Albanian drug dealers are now a major threat, say police: Warning organised crime gangs now have 'high-level influence' on supplying cocaine around the UK

[www.dailymail.co.uk]

I realise Albania is not a member of the EU yet but is one of seven countries (plus Kosovo) on the EU membership enlargement list.

I'm not trying to pick on any ethnic group nor suggesting EU criminals are worse than any other criminals. I'm simply saying the safeguards you've previously alluded to are imperfect

Now, if you can't be bothered to make an effort to do a couple of simple searches then please stop wasting my time on this issue

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by keano77 12 July, 2017 11:26

rendelharris Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> keano77 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The second part wasn't relevant to titch's
> > question of EU impositions so I chose a
> specific
> > example from the many freely available to
> people
> > if they are not too lazy to do some research
> for
> > themselves
>
> Ah, so you chose the specific example saying that
> EU regulation costs us £33BN but chose to leave
> off the very next sentence which says it benefits
> us by £59BN because it wasn't relevant. I see.
>
> > It's not £26 Billion titch, you've overlooked
> our membership fee.
> > Take that into account and we've hardly got
> enough out of it to pay for a round of drinks
>
> In 2016 our EU membership fee was a net (i.e.
> after rebate) £13.1BN. I don't know what boozer
> you drink in but even in East Dulwich £13BN still
> buys quite a sizeable round.


The bigger picture Rendel is that figure could be ten times greater or more if we strike a trade deal with the EU and then are free to make our own trade deals with the rest of the world.

Yes, the status quo is safe, we're chugging along, but we could be booming

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by titch juicy 12 July, 2017 11:29

Bloody EU criminals coming over here stealing crime from our good honest hardworking British criminals.

Also, quoting from the Daily Mail and Daily Record. If finding credible sources is so easy, why haven't you bothered?

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by rendelharris 12 July, 2017 11:32

keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The bigger picture Rendel is that figure could be
> ten times greater or more if we strike a trade
> deal with the EU and then are free to make our own
> trade deals with the rest of the world.
>
> Yes, the status quo is safe, we're chugging along,
> but we could be booming

Is "ten times" a figure you've plucked out of the air or do you have a solid basis to it? The £13BN figure is just one aspect of EU membership benefits, the CBI (hardly a hotbed of lefties) estimates that EU membership is worth £72BN to the UK. "if we strike a trade deal with the EU." If ifs and buts were fruits and nuts we'd all have a merry Christmas...I don't see too many signs that the EU (the world's largest economy, which absorbs 45% of our total exports) are minded to let us settle on nice easy terms, do you?

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by keano77 12 July, 2017 11:42

titch juicy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bloody EU criminals coming over here stealing
> crime from our good honest hardworking British
> criminals.
>
> Also, quoting from the Daily Mail and Daily
> Record. If finding credible sources is so easy,
> why haven't you bothered?

???????

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by keano77 12 July, 2017 11:44

Big world out there Rendel

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by malumbu 12 July, 2017 12:47

Criminality has always been an international business. We've had gangs from Malta, Sicily, Turkey. Russia, Cyprus, the Yardies, Indian Subontinent etc etc and that been going on 100s of years. Albanians are nothing new having muscled into drugs and the like years ago.

Not sure what your point is.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by DulwichLondoner 12 July, 2017 13:01

@keano77, I agree this is getting tiresome. Surely you know the difference between a single case, however tragic, and a pattern or epidemic, right? Surely you appreciate that single cases, however tragic, are not necessarily representative?

Leaving aside the reliability of the sources, the article about the Lithuanian gangsters talks about cooperation between the UK and the Lithuanian police forces. I ask you again: what would have been different with Brexit, and why? Nothing in the current EU regulations prevents us from kicking these gentlemen out of this country if they are convicted here. Did they have a criminal record before arriving here? If they did, was this information shared between Lithuania and the UK? Neither point is clear from the article. Sharing data on criminal records shouldn’t be any better or worse after Brexit. We can already stop convicted criminals from entering the country. Can we realistically prevent non-convicts from coming here and committing crime? Methinks not, but if you have a crystal ball or mind-reading machine, please, do elaborate on the point.

Also, note that requiring visas even for short tourist or business trips for citizens of the richer EU countries is in no one’s interest. Requiring them only for citizens of the poorer EU countries, like Lithuania, is something the EU will never accept.

So, again: what would be different with Brexit and why? I shall be looking forward to your detailed and exhaustive answers.

As others pointed out, where did you take the “10 times” figure (about trade deals)? Surely not from thin air, right? So, again , I shall be looking forward to your detailed and exhaustive answers. Also, do you have any idea of how long and complicated it is to agree a trade deal? Will it take us much less than it takes the rest of the world? And what happens till we actually agree those deals, or, OMG, if we don’t?

Oh, and finally, what are these insane impositions by the EU that you’ll be so anxious to get rid of? Again, anxiously awaiting details…

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by keano77 12 July, 2017 13:12

Sorry DulwichLondoner I'm taking a lunch break.

In fact, I'm having a banana sandwich and a cup of tea. The banana looks a bit like this but less curved, straighter

🍌

Possibly a class 2 judging by the EU guidelines posted above?

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by Alan Medic 12 July, 2017 13:31

Morning in the life of a Brexiteer

09.28 Signs off thread as got to help build a better Britain
09.49 Posts on EDF
10.07 Ditto
10.30 Ditto
10.40 Ditto
11.22 Ditto
11.26 Ditto
11.42 Ditto
11.44 Ditto
13.12 Lunch

It's going to take a while this better Britain I think........

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by Henry_17 12 July, 2017 14:10

Crack for for the EDF: Cheese on Toast AND Brexit on one article [uk.businessinsider.com]

--------------------
Henry

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by DulwichLondoner 12 July, 2017 14:17

So, all these impositions by the EU are so many, so self-evident and so outrageous that you still have no time to explain what they are.

The benefits that Brexit will bring to crime reduction in the UK are again so many and so clear that you cannot name one.

How different the story about Lithuanian gangsters would have been post Brexit is so clear that you don't see the need to explain it to the rest of us.

Etc etc etc...

Do you realise that you cannot substantiate a single point you raised, yes or no?

Oh, and by the way, the whole things about bananas is a moot point; surely you have read it and you realise that bendy bananas are not forbidden. Surely you realise the point is simply to allow buyers and sellers to classify produce into specific categories. Surely you are a sensible person and I am not wasting my time debating with someone who has miserably failed to substantiate a single point he has raised so far...

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by keano77 12 July, 2017 14:28

Alan Medic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Morning in the life of a Brexiteer
>
> 09.28 Signs off thread as got to help build a
> better Britain
> 09.49 Posts on EDF
> 10.07 Ditto
> 10.30 Ditto
> 10.40 Ditto
> 11.22 Ditto
> 11.26 Ditto
> 11.42 Ditto
> 11.44 Ditto
> 13.12 Lunch
>
> It's going to take a while this better Britain I
> think........

🙂

Couldn't do me a favour could you please Alan as you seem to have time on your hands and attention to detail. My banana sandwich didn't taste of, how do I put it?, banana. Pretty tasteless overall.

Would you mind reading the EU banana regulations posted above to see if the bureaucrats included the necessary condition that a banana should taste of banana. It's all very well fretting about shape but if a banana doesn't taste of banana questions need to asked what are we paying these people for?

I'd do it myself but I'm busy

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by titch juicy 12 July, 2017 14:46

As evidenced by the refusal to back up any rhetoric with evidence of how Brexit will benefit us, the only sensible and frankly logical assumption left available is that Keano doesn't actually believe it will.

Which begs the question, why does he/she really want us to leave the EU?

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by keano77 12 July, 2017 14:58

Can't be too specific I'm afraid titch as the negotiations are still going on and it'd be foolish to reveal our hand.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by red devil 12 July, 2017 15:07

Emily Thornberry's quip at PMQ's about May placing suggestion boxes around Parliament was very good. Labour should leave well alone, let the Tories carry on displaying their ineptitude...

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by uncleglen 12 July, 2017 16:25

rh you are only quoting those that are actually convicted- tip of the iceberg...
[fullfact.org] how many are still on the loose?

oh yes what about the Chocolate fiasco

[news.bbc.co.uk]
and the french boycott of British beef
[www.telegraph.co.uk]

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by rendelharris 12 July, 2017 16:40

uncleglen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rh you are only quoting those that are actually
> convicted- tip of the iceberg...

Oh I see, having proved to you that fewer convictions per head are accrued by EU citizens resident in the UK than UK citizens you now claim ah, but the unsolved crimes are committed by Eu citizens? How about some real world figures, instead of the uncle's perception world figures?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2017:07:12:16:42:25 by rendelharris.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by snowy 12 July, 2017 16:44

uncleglen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rh you are only quoting those that are actually
> convicted- tip of the iceberg...
> [fullfact.org]
> rest-are-romanians-responsible-90-atm-crime/
> how many are still on the loose?

You didn't read to the end of your link though did you?

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by DulwichLondoner 12 July, 2017 17:15

Still no proof that there is any kind of crime epidemic wrt to EU nationals here.
Anyway, let's try to see what could possibly be different post Brexit, shall we?

Let's start from criminals who arrive here. If they are convicted criminals, they can already be stopped at the border. If they are not convicted, what would be different? Post Brexit, will our Border Agency have specific mind-reading machines to assess who will commit crimes?
Oh, but post Brexit we'll be able to deny visas to those who don't have a job. True, but you can already kick out Europeans who can't support themselves. The FT had a story on Belgium being very aggressive with this. Also, Europeans will still be able to come here on tourist visas and overstay (illegally). Requiring visas even for tourism and business travel is not feasible, nor would it be in the UK's interest.
If Europeans are caught doing something bad, we can already kick them out.
Maybe post Brexit it will be easier to deny entry to those who had been arrested but not convicted? This I genuinely don't know; what about the presumption of innocence?

The story on chocolate is very different from what you implied. There are two sides to every story, aren't there? France Italy Belgium and a number of other countries wanted to distinguish between purer chocolate and inferior products, like the British chocolate , which did not use cocoa butter. They wanted these inferior products to be called something other than chocolate, but the EU told them mo. They wanted the label with the ingredients to be more visible in the front of the package, and again the EU said no. This is more debatable, because now consumers used to a certain product will not realise as clearly that what they are buying as 'chocolate' is not the 'chocolate' they were used to. Sure, there's still the label at the back, but not everyone reads it.
Anyway, it's a moot point because local tastes are too different anyway. It's no coincidence that Cadbury never really made a dent in the Belgian and Italian markets, and that the Italian Ferrero has a much much lower market share in the UK than in Italy.

Like most (if not all) Brexiters, you present isolated incidents, but fail to make the case that they are in any way representative. On the matter of euro clearing, the ECJ ruled in favour of the UK. And so in a number of other cases.

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by JohnL 12 July, 2017 17:56

is anyone actually doing anything sensible here.

Boris: The EU can go Whistle
Barnier: The clocks ticking
Damian Green: Negotiations are going very well

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by JoeLeg 12 July, 2017 18:25

uncleglen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rh you are only quoting those that are actually
> convicted- tip of the iceberg...
> [fullfact.org]
> rest-are-romanians-responsible-90-atm-crime/
> how many are still on the loose?
>

You definitely didn't entirely read the whole link!


> oh yes what about the Chocolate fiasco

A) 'Fiasco' is massive hyperbole and B) it describes a victory for shit chocolate. Hardly a ringing endorsement of U.K. production.

>
> [news.bbc.co.uk]
> and the french boycott of British beef
> [www.telegraph.co.uk]
> rance/1409136/France-likely-to-escape-paying-beef-
> ban-fine.html


Ancient news. Got anything current?

messageRe: Brexit View
Posted by Loz 12 July, 2017 22:53

keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Loz, Rendel, Alan Medic
>
> Loz, given the hour of your post you cannot have been expected to appreciate the irony of my
> mention of bananas given that DulwichLondoner raised the subject in an earlier reply to me
> above. Anyway, you might be delighted to learn that
>
> Commission regulation 2257/94 decreed that bananas in general should be “free from malformation or
> abnormal curvature”. Those sold as “extra class” must be perfect, “class 1” can have “slight
> defects of shape” and “class 2” can have full-scale “defects of shape”.
>
> In short, bananas should be preferably straightish, shouldn't be too curvy but can be
> bendy.

Yes, the EU divides produce into Class 1 and Class 2, something that will almost certainly continue in the UK post-Brexit.

Nice work disproving your own assertion that the EU is 'forcing straight bananas onto us'. You just saved me a bit of time looking it up.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2017:07:13:01:04:24 by Loz.

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