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messageRe: Homeopathy remedies
Posted by rendelharris January 23, 06:57PM

Sue Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rendelharris Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> >
> > Just to make it clear Sue, you believe that a
> > person can have negative emotions alleviated
> > psychically by holding their hand over a
> > particular plant, and that when the sun shines
> on
> > a dewdrop on a flower the "healing energy" of
> the
> > flower is transferred into the water?
>
>
> Yes.
>
> And btw I have a scientific background, so please
> don't treat me as if I am completely stupid.

I don't in the slightest believe you are completely stupid Sue, and I haven't treated you as such. I've asked you a question and you've answered it. I do believe your answer shows you are staggeringly gullible, but there we go. Healing energies being transferred from flowers to dewdrops by the power of early-morning sunlight, forsooth!

By the way you'd be on firmer ground objecting to being treated as stupid (which you weren't) if you hadn't described me as "like a colourblind person ridiculing people who can see colour" and that saying I don't believe in this nonsense "because you are not sensitive to subtle energies." Do unto others, and so forth.

"And as regards Rescue Remedy, the first time I used it somebody else gave it to me and I had absolutely no idea what it was at the time, but it worked immediately." No doubt. I presume they gave it to you saying it would help, you believed it would, and it did. The very definition of the placebo effect.

Anyway, I'm leaving this argument now as it's just going round and round and you're clearly getting all in a tizzy about your non-evidence-based beliefs being questioned.

Do get back to me if you ever find a peer-reviewed scientific paper or double-blind trial that proves any of your claims, won't you?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit was january 23, 07:04pm by rendelharris.

messageRe: Homeopathy remedies
Posted by TE44 January 23, 07:14PM

We have very diffrent views on healing, I cannot remember anyone ever saying on this forum there is not a place for conventional medicine. Choices are being taken away even though science has learned so much about homeopathy, the way it treats people holistically, although this was an old way it didn't begin with homeopathy although the biopsychosocial method has looked a lot at homeopathy.
EASAC who put in the report on homepathy wee accused of cherry picking trials they used for this report. I do not have time to go into this, and not sure if I have the energy but its worthwhile having a look if your interested.

messageRe: Homeopathy remedies
Posted by Sue January 23, 08:09PM

rendelharris Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

I presume they
> gave it to you saying it would help, you believed
> it would, and it did. The very definition of the
> placebo effect.


No, you presume completely wrong.

They didn't say anything. I didn't have time to "believe" anything. I didn't even know them.

They put a drop on my tongue when I was in quite a bad state, which they heard from the next room and came into mine.

It had an immediate effect. They told me what it was later. I had never even heard of it before.




you're clearly getting
> all in a tizzy about your non-evidence-based
> beliefs being questioned.



I don't have "beliefs". I have personal experience.



> Do get back to me if you ever find a peer-reviewed
> scientific paper or double-blind trial that proves
> any of your claims, won't you?


Science is making progress all the time, for example in particle physics, but it can't yet explain everything (or do you think it can?)

The universe is a lot weirder than anybody could have imagined. If you think it isn't, maybe you should read up on some physics.

Perhaps you could explain to me:

1) Which of my claims you would like to be proved

2) How a scientist would go about setting up a double-blind trial or trials to prove them (and how they would find sufficient subjects to do so)

3) Why the lack of a "peer reviewed scientific paper" about a particular issue should affect its credibility?

messageRe: Homeopathy remedies
Posted by rendelharris January 23, 08:13PM

I refer you to the penultimate line of my last post, Sue. All the best.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was january 23, 08:16pm by rendelharris.

messageRe: Homeopathy remedies
Posted by Robert Poste's Child January 23, 11:05PM

I'm not really sure if beliefs come into it for me. I tried homeopathy for some long-standing issues (I've tried a lot of things) and one or two things seemed to help but then didn't, and some never worked at all, but RR does. When I'm feeling stressed I just add a few drops to a water bottle.

In a similar way, I first tried craniosacral therapy in desperation when my shoulder and neck had completely frozen as the result of overcompensating after an accident. Literally couldn't move without pain. After an hour of someone holding my feet and breathing heavily, then moving my arms, legs and head very slightly I could put my head on my shoulder. Amazing. (Never as good again since though.)

messageRe: Homeopathy remedies
Posted by TE44 January 23, 11:47PM

Rpc I've found herbs that I know to work for long term health problems sometimes are not enough
for me. I may then look at where I am, recent
things that i've struggled with,as more often my symptoms are connected with what is going on emotionally, regardless of a diagnosis that only sees a minute glimpse of illness. From a system that refuses to recognise that you know your own body. I beliee and know things are possible outside of the peer reviewed, outside of tight bounderies that keep healing out.

messageRe: Homeopathy remedies
Posted by Sue January 24, 09:55PM

rendelharris Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I refer you to the penultimate line of my last
> post, Sue. All the best.



Oh dear, can't you answer my perfectly reasonable questions, then?

big grin big grin big grin

messageRe: Homeopathy remedies
Posted by JoeLeg January 24, 10:00PM

Donít be idiotic Sue.

You know full well Rendell is capable of going back and forth on something until the sun comes up. The fact you and someone else disagree on something doesnít automatically mean they donít have an answer for you.

messageRe: Homeopathy remedies
Posted by Sue January 24, 10:06PM

RPC, I agree.

I have never found the usual sort of homeopathy works for me, but rescue remedy does.

I have had acupuncture in the past, and found for some things it worked but only in the short term, and for other things not at all. But interestingly, I was sometimes able to tell whether the acupuncturist had the needles in the right place, and ask him to move them if not, purely by the sensation.

Somebody I knew who was a reflexologist and a healer worked (as a reflexologist and healer) in an NHS hospital with cancer patients.

Mindfulness courses are being "prescribed" these days on the NHS for people with long-term physical illnesses.

All sorts of herbs which have been used by herbalists for years are now being studied and incorporated into mainstream medicine/drugs.

I think it's great that the medical profession is becoming so much more open to using and recommending complementary approaches to illness.

messageRe: Homeopathy remedies
Posted by Sue January 24, 10:11PM

JoeLeg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Donít be idiotic Sue.

Eh?


>
> You know full well Rendell is capable of going
> back and forth on something until the sun comes
> up.


Not in this case, it seems smiling smiley


>The fact you and someone else disagree on
> something doesnít automatically mean they donít
> have an answer for you.


Not automatically, no. However, in this particular case, I suspect he can't answer at least one of them big grin

Let's give him the benefit of the doubt though, eh? big grin

messageRe: Homeopathy remedies
Posted by JoeLeg January 24, 10:13PM

Whatever mate...

messageRe: Homeopathy remedies
Posted by TE44 January 24, 11:29PM

Sue, It definitely is shifting with the medical profession, physically and psychologicly. Things change in time, many young people are coming into the healing profession who are wanting change, it is very exciting.
I have had acupuncture, chinese herbs, vibrational healing through NHS, I have also been involved in research looking at different healing. The problem with looking at results is the measuring and the bringing together of a whole picture, which can be difficult in a scientific setting. I've found when there is funding for research it is often looking only at
What is being measured and often other important
things are shared and experienced but they don"t fit in to the scientific analysis.

messageRe: Homeopathy remedies
Posted by Chick January 24, 11:30PM

>
> Yes.
>
> And btw I have a scientific background, so please
> don't treat me as if I am completely stupid.


Sue, what is your scientific background????

messageRe: Homeopathy remedies
Posted by rendelharris January 25, 06:08AM

Sue Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Oh dear, can't you answer my perfectly reasonable
> questions, then?

Oh OK Sue, I thought we may as well leave it as if all the argument you can provide is "the universe is a lot weirder than you imagine" it doesn't really get us anywhere, but I don't want to damage my reputation as someone who'll go to and fro until the sun comes up (thanks Joe!) so:

1) Which of my claims you would like to be proved

Well, all of them, but I'm particularly taken with the concept that plants give off psychic energy so that one's emotions can be changed just by holding one's hand over them. Oh and the one about how the early morning sun shining on the dewdrops on flowers transfers the "healing energy" of the flower into the water, which can then be distilled and diluted until no trace of the original dewdrops remain, and the resultant liquid has healing powers, I like that one very much.

2) How a scientist would go about setting up a double-blind trial or trials to prove them (and how they would find sufficient subjects to do so)

Eh? I wouldn't have thought anyone with a scientific background would have to ask that, it's self-evident, no? You get a bunch of people suffering from a particular ailment or condition, you give half the "remedy" and half a placebo; nobody, researchers, practitioners nor patients knows which is which until the trial's done and the results are assessed. Where's the problem with that? As for how would you find sufficient subjects, I don't even understand the question - how do you think researchers get sufficient subjects for any trial? The fact that such trials can be done on homeopathy is proved by the fact that many have been done, and every single one, without exception, has failed to demonstrate any therapeutic effect greater than that of the placebo.

3) Why the lack of a "peer reviewed scientific paper" about a particular issue should affect its credibility?

Again, as someone with a scientific background you must know that the peer-reviewed paper is the gold standard for proof in scientific research; a team of experts in a particular field check the validity of a trial, its methodology and results, and only when passed is it published. It's the best way of weeding out errors, false claims, unreliable research, confirmation bias, and outright charlatans. Any reputable and accurate research should be capable of passing peer review; if it isn't, its credibility is severely affected.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was january 25, 06:12am by rendelharris.

messageRe: Homeopathy remedies
Posted by TE44 January 25, 10:27AM

[www.google.com]

Interesting link on peer reviewed articles "crisis in peer reviewed, fix not abolish"

messageRe: Homeopathy remedies
Posted by Sue January 25, 03:09PM

Chick Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> > And btw I have a scientific background, so
> please
> > don't treat me as if I am completely stupid.
>
>
> Sue, what is your scientific background????


I did physics, chemistry and pure maths at uni for a year.

Didn't enjoy it as much as I'd hoped, and changed to psychology, which is what my degree is.

Then did post-grad research in psychology. Know quite a bit about research methodology.

I do hope that is OK for you, but if not do feel free to ask for further details (that last bit was sarcastic, by the way).

messageRe: Homeopathy remedies
Posted by Sue January 25, 03:16PM

rendelharris, you have misunderstood my questions, which having read your answers is entirely my fault for not being sufficiently clear.

I don't have time to answer your post now as I have a gig to run tonight and I have to leave soon to set up.
But don't worry, I'll come back to them big grin big grin big grin

Though possibly not till after the weekend big grin big grin big grin

messageRe: Homeopathy remedies
Posted by robbin January 25, 03:38PM

Oh, the suspense!

messageRe: Homeopathy remedies
Posted by rendelharris January 25, 03:51PM

I'm just as happy to leave it at that thanks Sue, I only answered your questions as you suggested that my saying let's leave it at that indicated that I couldn't answer them. I fail to see how I can have misunderstood your questions, they seem pretty straightforward to me and I've given them straightforward answers.

Think maybe we should just agree to disagree on this. Have a nice weekend.

messageRe: Homeopathy remedies
Posted by Chick January 25, 05:02PM

.

messageRe: Homeopathy remedies
Posted by Robert Poste's Child January 25, 09:47PM

Rendel, how about a home healing session?

[www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk]

messageRe: Homeopathy remedies
Posted by rendelharris January 25, 10:04PM

Robert Poste's Child Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rendel, how about a home healing session?

I'd love one, the floorboards want sanding badly and the brickwork could do with repointing, where do I apply?

messageRe: Homeopathy remedies
Posted by Robert Poste's Child January 25, 10:45PM

When they say home-opathy...

messageRe: Homeopathy remedies
Posted by ianr January 26, 07:36PM

Practical Handbook of Veterinary Homeopathy: Healing Our Companion Animals from Kindle Edition
by Wendy Thacher Jensen DVM (Author) Print List Price: £11.09
Kindle Price: £0.00 Save £11.09 (100%) includes VAT*
[www.amazon.co.uk];

Could you resist? I couldn't. It's likely to be a short duration offer, maybe even just a day or two, maybe not. I was notified of it by bookbub.com.

messageRe: Homeopathy remedies
Posted by rendelharris January 26, 07:58PM

ianr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Practical Handbook of Veterinary Homeopathy:
> Healing Our Companion Animals from Kindle Edition
> by Wendy Thacher Jensen DVM (Author) Print List
> Price: £11.09
> Kindle Price: £0.00 Save £11.09 (100%) includes
> VAT*
> [www.amazon.co.uk]
> nary-Homeopathy-Companion-ebook/dp/B018RRVLNW?_bbi
> d=11412456&_bbtype=email&ref_=nav_signin&
>
> Could you resist? I couldn't. It's likely to be
> a short duration offer, maybe even just a day or
> two, maybe not. I was notified of it by
> bookbub.com.

Still overpriced.

messageRe: Homeopathy remedies
Posted by ianr January 26, 08:22PM

> Still overpriced.

Nevertheless, I am interested and curious enough to want to read it, at least in part. I can't help that. So being able to do so has some value for me. I would have paid some money to do so.

messageRe: Homeopathy remedies
Posted by rendelharris January 26, 08:42PM

ianr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Still overpriced.
>
> Nevertheless, I am interested and curious enough
> to want to read it, at least in part. I can't
> help that. So being able to do so has some value
> for me. I would have paid some money to do so.

Well, I'll be interested to hear your report. As far as I understand it, homeopathy involves introducing a substance to water, and then continually diluting it until no trace of the introduced element remains. Not a single atom. The water obtained thereby (which is now pure water) is then bottled as tinctures or made into pills and sold for hefty prices.

If there's genuine, verified evidence that feeding dogs pure water has therapeutic effects (above and beyond hydration), I'd be most interested to hear it.

Look, the only way homeopathy could possibly work is if the atoms of water could be somehow imprinted with the "memory" of another substance and retain it. If that was the case, anyone who could prove it would not only win the Nobel prize for Physics but would change our fundamental understanding of the way the universe works at both atomic and quantum levels. Funny that nobody's ever managed it, isn't it?

messageRe: Homeopathy remedies
Posted by TE44 January 26, 08:51PM

[releasethefirstreport.com]

Here is a link (again rather long) regarding reaction and legal questions to the report,
Further down there is a petition,asking for a first report which seemingly put homeopathy in a different light, very interesting reading, this has affecting many countries and I believe is under investigation and being challenged outside of the decisions in uk. I have not read it all, as hard going on a phone.

messageRe: Homeopathy remedies
Posted by TE44 January 26, 11:04PM

[homeopathyusa.org]

The American Institute of Homeopathy accuses EASAC (european Academies Science Advisory Council) of deliberate scientific bias. This link
explains a bit clearer connection with australias report.

messageRe: Homeopathy remedies
Posted by rendelharris January 27, 07:21AM

TE44 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The American Institute of Homeopathy accuses EASAC
> (european Academies Science Advisory Council) of
> deliberate scientific bias.

I'm sure they provide a completely unbiased view! The EASAC report (please note that EASAC is a body comprising Europe's 29 most prestigious scientific organisations, including our own Royal Society) undertook a review of the scientific evidence and concluded that homeopathy is "nonsense and risks significant harm." In the face of that you'd hardly expect an organisation whose livelihood depends on people believing that homeopathy works to say "it's a fair cop, we'll pack up."

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