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messageRe: Should road bicycle users/cyclists be taxed and insured?
Posted by rendelharris February 28, 09:16PM

malumbu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'll happily register, tax and insure my bike when
> any government introduces average speed cameras.

Seconded!

messageRe: Should road bicycle users/cyclists be taxed and insured?
Posted by exdulwicher February 28, 10:33PM

Quote:
Oh dear, I'm now a troll, whatever that is on here?

The fine art of posting a deliberately inflammatory coment or statement and then just sitting back and watching the arguments unfold. There's a few topics pretty much guaranteed to do that - newspapers know that an opinion column on cycling in general (usually ith some well worn cliches about red lights, dark clothing and not using cycle lanes) will always get them a load of clicks and comments.

Your attitude seems pretty much made up and no amount of common sense or worldly evidence will convince you but here you go anyway:
[www.bikebiz.com]

messageRe: Should road bicycle users/cyclists be taxed and insured?
Posted by Passiflora February 28, 10:53PM

Can't be bothered to click on some link.

Somebody just told me to F off earlier back but not bothered really.

As usual, Rendal et al turns the thread around to their own advantage and assumes I'm a 'she'

Totally laughable response by some!

Get on your bike!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was february 28, 10:57pm by Passiflora.

messageRe: Should road bicycle users/cyclists be taxed and insured?
Posted by JoeLeg February 28, 11:04PM

Passiflora Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can't be bothered to click on some link.
>

Well that says a lot about your willingness to engage in actual debate.


> Somebody just told me to F off earlier back but
> not bothered really.

Of course you’re not, that’s why you mentioned how ‘not bothered’ you are...

>
> As usual, Rendal et al turns the thread around to
> their own advantage and assumes I'm a 'she'
>

No, Rendel - and many others - argued with you, which you seem to have a problem with.


> Totally laughable response by some!
>
> Get on your bike!

2/10, must try harder.


Seriously, if you’re gonna troll at least be interesting. This is some lame business you got going on.

messageRe: Should road bicycle users/cyclists be taxed and insured?
Posted by Passiflora February 28, 11:09PM

JoeLeg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Passiflora Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Can't be bothered to click on some link.
> >
>
> Well that says a lot about your willingness to
> engage in actual debate.
>
>
> > Somebody just told me to F off earlier back but
> > not bothered really.
>
> Of course you’re not, that’s why you mentioned how
> ‘not bothered’ you are...
>
> >
> > As usual, Rendal et al turns the thread around
> to
> > their own advantage and assumes I'm a 'she'
> >
>
> No, Rendel - and many others - argued with you,
> which you seem to have a problem with.
>
>
> > Totally laughable response by some!
> >
> > Get on your bike!
>
> 2/10, must try harder.
>
>
> Seriously, if you’re gonna troll at least be
> interesting. This is some lame business you got
> going on.

Lame business you got going on?

I'm not a teenager but you sound like you are.

messageRe: Should road bicycle users/cyclists be taxed and insured?
Posted by malumbu February 28, 11:38PM

I'm now confused. This thread was fairly pointless which begs the question why am I posting. But when is a question provocative and when is it inflammatory. I like putting up provocative threads as I generally learn from others and will be hopefully have a more informed position. But I dislike posters putting up links without some effort to add some further detail. I'm not sure who I am siding with now. Barry Gardener is talking about Climate Change on QT, which is more interesting that this thread, but of course relevant particularly I expect with some Trojan Horse petrol heads are engaged on this one. Now as for that VW advert with the 'cool' parent driving their child to school, particularly in context of school kids marching against climate change...

messageRe: Should road bicycle users/cyclists be taxed and insured?
Posted by rendelharris March 01, 07:18AM

Passiflora Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> As usual, Rendal et al turns the thread around to
> their own advantage and assumes I'm a 'she'

"turns the thread round to their advantage" aka "disagrees with me". Obviously, it's frustrating when you were hoping for lots of support for your anti-cyclist hatred and instead get a majority disagreeing with you, but such poor-quality trolling deserves no better.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was march 01, 07:31am by rendelharris.

messageRe: Should road bicycle users/cyclists be taxed and insured?
Posted by JoeLeg March 01, 07:41AM

Passiflora Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> JoeLeg Wrote:
>
> Lame business you got going on?
>
> I'm not a teenager but you sound like you are.


Like I say, lame.

(Sorry, wasn’t aware no one over the age of 19 is allowed to use that word.)

messageRe: Should road bicycle users/cyclists be taxed and insured?
Posted by rendelharris March 01, 08:10AM

JoeLeg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Like I say, lame.
>
> (Sorry, wasn’t aware no one over the age of 19 is
> allowed to use that word.)

"O most lame and impotent conclusion!" - Shakespeare, Othello - think you're in alright company Joe.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was march 01, 08:10am by rendelharris.

messageRe: Should road bicycle users/cyclists be taxed and insured?
Posted by Ampersand March 01, 08:18AM

Passiflora Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can't be bothered to click on some link.
>
> Somebody just told me to F off earlier back but
> not bothered really.
>
> As usual, Rendal et al turns the thread around to
> their own advantage and assumes I'm a 'she'
>
> Totally laughable response by some!
>
> Get on your bike!

Oh dear. How embarrassing for you. Another thread you have started that you have been comprehensively owned on.

messageRe: Should road bicycle users/cyclists be taxed and insured?
Posted by James Barber March 01, 10:13AM

Perhaps a negative tax - pay people to cycle - as the benefits to the and wider society are so profound.
[www.cyclinguk.org]

--------------------
Regards jamesvbarber@gmail.com
former Liberal Democrat Councillor for East Dulwich Ward (2006-2018)
[www.jamesbarber.org.uk]
[twitter.com]

messageRe: Should road bicycle users/cyclists be taxed and insured?
Posted by edcam March 01, 12:32PM

Well cars don't need this technology, they have numberplates and many (though not enough)lights have cameras, which would be useless when it comes to bikes. I'm up for anything that makes all road users more responsible.

rendelharris Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I trust you also wish that cars were fitted with
> the same technology to clock them jumping red
> lights (



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was march 01, 12:34pm by edcam.

messageRe: Should road bicycle users/cyclists be taxed and insured?
Posted by rendelharris March 01, 04:06PM

edcam Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well cars don't need this technology, they have
> numberplates and many (though not enough)lights
> have cameras

You'd be surprised how few traffic lights do have them; according to t'internet, the only junctions with red light cameras anywhere near this neighbourhood are the Village Way/ED Grove junctions and the Champion/DK Hill junction. The little cameras on top of traffic lights are just for traffic management, not enforcement - red light cameras require a complex setup of below-tarmac sensors and so are costly and troublesome to set up, which explains their rarity.

messageRe: Should road bicycle users/cyclists be taxed and insured?
Posted by Passiflora March 01, 11:18PM

Ampersand Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Passiflora Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Can't be bothered to click on some link.
> >
> > Somebody just told me to F off earlier back but
> > not bothered really.
> >
> > As usual, Rendal et al turns the thread around
> to
> > their own advantage and assumes I'm a 'she'
> >
> > Totally laughable response by some!
> >
> > Get on your bike!
>
> Oh dear. How embarrassing for you. Another thread
> you have started that you have been
> comprehensively owned on.

Not embarrassed at all but thanks for replying.

Rendel has gone into Shakesperian mode so let him get on his bike!

messageRe: Should road bicycle users/cyclists be taxed and insured?
Posted by rendelharris March 01, 11:57PM

Passiflora Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Not embarrassed at all but thanks for replying.
>
> Rendel has gone into Shakesperian mode so let him
> get on his bike!

It wasn't funny the first time you tried that and it's failed again. You really have got nothing to offer, have you? I'd cut your losses and bow out if I were you, and next time you want to try your hand at Daily Mail style trolling at least have some sort of plan to cope with the fact that the majority of responses disagree with you - above and beyond making remarks that just make you look even more foolish.

messageRe: Should road bicycle users/cyclists be taxed and insured?
Posted by Blah Blah March 02, 12:50PM

Trolling aside, and yes it is 'that' obvious Passiflora, if we wee to impose tax and other charges on the right to cycle, it would not only remove the last free from of transport for many people, but it would also discourage people from cycling.

Just on lights etc, the Police do stop cycists in targeted road operations to check lights etc. It has happened to me several times when I had a front light that wasn't really bright enough. I think there would also be sense in giving out free hi-vis vests to cyclists too - still use my free one from the Prudential Ride weekend I last went on.

I absolutely agree with the sentiment that some cyclists do little to maximise their chances of being seen clearly at night, but the way to address that is through education.

Compulsory use of helmets is a controversial topic. My own experience is that drivers seem to exercise more care overtaking when I am wearing no helmet, but having said that, most of the time I do wear one.

On insurance, I do have it, for lots of reasons, but I think it would be regressive to legally require it and potentially messy in that you would quickly end up with a system where it becomes more expensive for young people and those who have made claims, in the same way vehicle insurance operates. That seems to defeat any purpose to me, is practically unenforceable and would not be cost effective either.

Anyway, it's a sunny day, and I'm off for a free ride ;)

messageRe: Should road bicycle users/cyclists be taxed and insured?
Posted by malumbu March 02, 02:05PM

Yes in deed a nice day to be on your bike. Shame as the traffic is lighter there's no stopping most drivers doing 35 - 40 (Forest Hill to Sydenham). I politely asked someone to give cyclists more room, and a pedestrian on the other side of the road told me to 'fuggin drive'. That's an interesting insult (I assume it was an insult not some advice) - was it and of you on this site? And I had done a special 'can you give cyclists a bit more room please' with a nice tone, not patronising or moral high ground or sweary).

messageRe: Should road bicycle users/cyclists be taxed and insured?
Posted by jimlad48 March 02, 02:55PM

I would look for a mandatory cycling test, in same way as driving test is mandatory - and L plates too for those that have yet to pass it.

I would also look for mandatory cyclist registration number on bikes to enable easy identification of cyclists who break the Highway code. I think this may make the attitudes more accountable.

Said as someone who within the last week has been threatened with a beating up by a cyclist for politely asking them to ride on the road, not the pavement.

messageRe: Should road bicycle users/cyclists be taxed and insured?
Posted by Blah Blah March 02, 04:26PM

So you are basically calling for registration plates?

Most children do the cycling proficiency test. But again, L plates? Seriously?

We are not talking about cars here so completely pointless to treat cycles in the same way.

If someone threatens anyone, that is not because they are a cyclist, but because they are an ass.

messageRe: Should road bicycle users/cyclists be taxed and insured?
Posted by exdulwicher March 02, 07:44PM

Quote:
I would look for a mandatory cycling test, in same way as driving test is mandatory - and L plates too for those that have yet to pass it.
I would also look for mandatory cyclist registration number on bikes to enable easy identification of cyclists who break the Highway code. I think this may make the attitudes more accountable.

Yep - that works SO well with the million or so uninsured vehicles; 700,000 untaxed (although I admit that a lot of those are probably double counted); and people driving while DQ'd:
[www.mib.org.uk]
[www.theguardian.com]
[www.bbc.co.uk]

Here's a test. Phone the police and report a driving transgression - speeding, RLJ, using a mobile phone - and give them the registration plate.
What do you think will happen? I'll tell you now - absolutely nothing. They'll do nothing without evidence and even with it, there'll be enough loopholes and it'll be considered so minor (ie no-one died) that literally nothing will be done. You only have to look at how spectacularly awful driving can be (in fact, people can be killed) and the driver can still be found not guilty.

Remember this one:
[www.bbc.co.uk]

Pretty clear cut case of driving without due care & attention (maybe even dangerous driving), injuries caused - no prosecution. "Just an accident". Oopsy.

So please tell me exactly what issues you expect number plates on bikes to solve?

Every single time number plates, insurance, cycle tax etc come up (Ken and Boris both mentioned number plates as possibilities when they were London Mayors) and it's been shot down in flames repeatedly as costing more than it would bring in, solving nothing and generally being completely unworkable.

And you can read the BikeBiz article that I linked to in a previous post. You know, if FACTS aren't too inconvenient for you.

messageRe: Should road bicycle users/cyclists be taxed and insured?
Posted by rendelharris March 02, 07:46PM

jimlad48 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would look for a mandatory cycling test, in same
> way as driving test is mandatory - and L plates
> too for those that have yet to pass it.

The driving test is mandatory because cars are extremely dangerous, frequently lethal, machines if not handled responsibly and with a modicum of expertise (not that one would think that's required, from empirical observation). Bicycles do not, except in exceptionally rare and tragic incidents, pose anything like the same danger. A bicycle is extremely simple to ride and so doesn't require an ability assessment in the same way car driving does (I don't deny some people ride bicycles irresponsibly or even illegally, but few ride them badly - bloody hell, even I'm quite good at it). You might say that having to pass a test would make cyclists more aware of the rules of the road; please go out and stand by any busy road around here and watch the behaviour of car drivers, all of whom have passed a driving test, and come back and tell me that passing a test is in any way a guarantor of sensible behaviour on the roads. The substantial majority of cyclists (85%) already have driving licences anyway, so have undergone tests of the same requirements of theory and awareness.

> I would also look for mandatory cyclist
> registration number on bikes to enable easy
> identification of cyclists who break the Highway
> code. I think this may make the attitudes more
> accountable.

Where are you going to put registration plates large enough to be seen on a bicycle? That's just silly.

>
> Said as someone who within the last week has been
> threatened with a beating up by a cyclist for
> politely asking them to ride on the road, not the
> pavement.

I was threatened with being beaten up two weeks ago on Rye Lane because I politely suggested to someone that they could put their MacDonald's carton in the bin rather than throwing it into the gutter. Should we have compulsory registration for pedestrians, or fast food consumers? @#$%& is @#$%&, walking, on bikes, in cars...but somehow many people seem to think it's OK to hold cyclists to a higher standard of accountability than any other section of the community.

Fortunately however much you and the rest of the cycle-hating brigade demand it, it's never going to happen. Go and look at the numbers of people KSI by car drivers as opposed to cyclists, then have a look at the numbers of people killed by pollution-related diseases, and have a think about whether a silly campaign to put numberplates on bicycles is really the most important issue related to road use in this country right now.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was march 03, 10:56am by rendelharris.

messageRe: Should road bicycle users/cyclists be taxed and insured?
Posted by rendelharris March 02, 10:11PM

exdulwicher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Remember this one:
> [www.bbc.co.uk]
> re-40134629
>
> Pretty clear cut case of driving without due care
> & attention (maybe even dangerous driving),
> injuries caused - no prosecution. "Just an
> accident". Oopsy.

How about driving with three defective tyres, skidding on black ice and killing four cyclists, £160 fine and six points on his licence: [news.bbc.co.uk]

I've long said that if you want to murder someone in this country, don't bother hatching an intricate plot, just wait until they're on a bicycle and then hit them with a car, it'll cost you a week's wages at most.

messageRe: Should road bicycle users/cyclists be taxed and insured?
Posted by edcam March 03, 09:46AM

Well I’d be quite happy to see a large increase in penalties for drivers and cyclists. Dangerous and selfish behaviour is becoming far to commonplace among both groups.

rendelharris Wrote
> You'd be surprised how few traffic lights do have
> them; according to t'internet, the only junctions
> with red light cameras anywhere near this
> neighbourhood are the Village Way/ED Grove
> junctions and the Champion/DK Hill junction. The
> little cameras on top of traffic lights are just
> for traffic management, not enforcement - red
> light cameras require a complex setup of
> below-tarmac sensors and so are costly and
> troublesome to set up, which explains their
> rarity.

messageRe: Should road bicycle users/cyclists be taxed and insured?
Posted by malumbu March 03, 11:21AM

Here's a radical suggestion, rather than witter on about dangerous cyclists, and micro-chipping them and their bikes, go and get some cycle training. This is aimed both at cyclists and dare I say professional drivers. Would be good to hear from some of the latter who have done this. [www.cycleconfident.com]

messageRe: Should road bicycle users/cyclists be taxed and insured?
Posted by rendelharris March 03, 11:56AM

malumbu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here's a radical suggestion, rather than witter on
> about dangerous cyclists, and micro-chipping them
> and their bikes, go and get some cycle training.
> This is aimed both at cyclists and dare I say
> professional drivers. Would be good to hear from
> some of the latter who have done this.
> [www.cycleconfident.com]

Mrs H did it when she got back into cycling after twenty years (and ten years of me nagging) and it did wonders for her; it turned her from someone who would only ride offroad or on cyclepaths to someone who now happily cycles right round the Place de la Bastille (and if you can ride round there you can ride anywhere). It also, not coincidentally, has made her a brilliantly considerate driver around cyclists.

messageRe: Should road bicycle users/cyclists be taxed and insured?
Posted by zerkalo March 03, 03:35PM

I agree, Cycle Confident training courses are brilliant and free. I say that as someone who was very reluctant to take up cycling in London to begin with. I'm very glad I did. If only there were also bike maintenance courses on offer that would be great (anyone knows of any in the local area?).

I felt that, without any further qualification, the statement of the OP was unnecessarily provocative and rightly deserved the response that it received. A bit more understanding and less animosity from both cyclists and motorists would go a long way.

messageRe: Should road bicycle users/cyclists be taxed and insured?
Posted by rendelharris March 03, 03:52PM

zerkalo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree, Cycle Confident training courses are
> brilliant and free. I say that as someone who was
> very reluctant to take up cycling in London to
> begin with. I'm very glad I did. If only there
> were also bike maintenance courses on offer that
> would be great (anyone knows of any in the local
> area?).

Cycle Confident do courses but not in Southwark. However they do them in Lambeth and Westminster and you can go (£18) if you work in those boroughs. Alternatively Evans Cycles do a one-hour course for £15, think it's on a couple of Wednesdays a month - book online or ask in store.

messageRe: Should road bicycle users/cyclists be taxed and insured?
Posted by zerkalo March 03, 05:04PM

Thanks for that RH. I didn't know that Evans do courses. I'll go and ask in store. Neither Lambeth nor Westminster is good for the Cycle Confident courses unfortunately.

messageRe: Should road bicycle users/cyclists be taxed and insured?
Posted by malumbu March 03, 07:15PM

Meant to add, get your workplace to do this as a staff benefit or as part of their Corporate Social Responsibility.

messageRe: Should road bicycle users/cyclists be taxed and insured?
Posted by exdulwicher March 03, 08:43PM

Yep, as mentioned Evans Cycles run "Fix It" classes:
[www.evanscycles.com]

There's a branch on East Dulwich Road as you head towards Peckham from Goose Green.

Brixton Cycles certainly used to do them, don't know if they still do.
Up in town, Look Mum No Hands on Old Street run regular bike maintenance classes.

And if you want to venture even further north of the river Exclaimation there's this place:
[lbk.org.uk] which gets good reports.

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