Not everyone whats to Cycle everywhere A Lot Do
And,
- love to Drive there Car or use there Motorcycle

But a Low emisson Vehicle is Good

This weekend is the SW London Uprising festival, a little closer to ED actually in Brockwell Park [www.facebook.com].

For goodness' sake find another way...[www.yorkshirepost.co.uk]

I think most people involved in XR would rather not have to do any of this, but non-violent, disruptive direct action has a history of being the most effective tool in similar circumstances. Note: even in that article the police acknowledge that protest of this sort is a basic right - quote "we have facilitated a peaceful protest, balanced the rights of individuals with the right of free assembly and speech." Do you have any better suggestions? Genuine question.

There is liaison happening between police/council and XR at these events, btw, or there certainly was at Hackney and Blackheath, that I know of personally.

We all know protest is a basic right in the free world but responsibility for your carbon footprint is ultimately YOUR responsibility
[www.euractiv.com]

it is obscene that aviation fuel attracts NO tax and NO VAT....

While many fans of extinction rebellion will cite a long and successful history of direct action success. I genuinely don't believe that direct action is in anyway the most effective way to solve a global problem. Sure, you might influence Southwark Council, or if you're lucky, the British government. But how much influence will your Saturday jaunt through Blackheath have on foreign governments who also need to be in alignment to solve a global problem? Sure, the British government may try to exert pressure on foreign leaders, but once again, is your march really the best way to make this come to bear?. It might make you feel good, and you can post it on Instagram, but frankly, and unfortuinatley, its doing bugger all.

For example, on a related environmental topic, while its great that the UK government has banned plastic straws, and great that you had an Instagram diary of your plastic free July, it turns out that 90 percent of the plastic that ends up in our oceans comes from just 10 rivers - 8 are in Asia, and 2 are in Africa. Global problems need glo bal solutions. Yes these start local, but if you really want to actually DO something, as opposed to be SEEN doing something, then you should try an maximise your impact from the get go...

There are so many better things you can do than disrupting people getting to work, standing on top of trains or marching in the street......

I wonder how many of the well meaning folk going to march in XR know how much of their own money is invested-in and profiting from fossil fuels; and how much of their own money is helping support development of efficiency technologies and cheaper, more reliable renewable generation? I would hazard a guess at the answer being almost none of them. I'm talking about their pension funds of course. You want to really make a difference? examine how you can switch your pensions into more sustainable investment products. The 'direct action' that major, global asset managers (with sustainability mandates)take when they interact with company management will be infinitely more effective than your direct action...


For most people you pension pot will be your largest or second largest asset - and I'd bet for most people a good deal of it is making decent dividends off the petroleum majors. So if you REALLY care, then there's your chance. It's an evolving area, but preliminary studies are suggesting re-direction of pension funds are up to 30x more effective than any other action you can take as an individual on climate.

Something to think about in anycase.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit was 2019:08:30:07:56:55 by TheCat.

@uncleglen - I've been doing everything I can to reduce my carbon footprint over the last ten years or more. Weirdly, me taking personal responsibility for my carbon footprint doesn't seem to have solved this quite massive global issue

Which brings me to @thecat. Correct! It is a global problem and the UK's part in causing it is relatively minor (but rather disproportionate all the same). Thank goodness then that XR is a global movement now, but one which has its origins in the UK, demonstrating nicely the way in which something started in one country can indeed have cascading effects throughout the world. Note that XR doesn't claim to be able to solve climate change. Rather, it has very specific demands which, if met, should bring about the awareness, clear objectives and democratic framework for real change to happen. For what precisely that change should be, it's over to the People's Assemblies and the work of experts such as those at Project Drawdown.

The first goal is to get governments (and media) to tell the truth and I really don't see how you could argue that XR haven't made inroads here. Climate change is finally on the news and political agenda in a much bigger way than it has been in the past and Parliament did declare a climate emergency (just a start, but a start all the same). The second is to Act Now in agreeing to reduce carbon emissions to net zero by 2025 and stop destroying biodiversity. Got a long way to go here, but if one government can be persuaded to start acting on this basis, it should provide a useful model and potentially influence others to do the same. The third is to create Citizens Assemblies on climate change. This has begun to happen, isn't that good? [news.camden.gov.uk].

I fail to see how we can solve a global problem WITHOUT starting at home. Of course other countries are bigger polluters etc, but I have pretty much zero opportunity for influence in China or India, unless you have some suggestions for how to do this?? In the absence of a better answer, we will continue with the direct action and community outreach such as that happening this weekend. Loads of people signed up to be part of the movement at Blackheath after finding out more, which is great.

FWIW, I have indeed moved my banking to the most ethical and environmentally friendly options I could find. Have also had discussions about this within XR, so your assumption is off-base. But as we know, personal choices are not enough, and it is implausible to expect most people to have the time, energy and resources to audit all of their life choices to make sure that they are doing the right thing (which is often very unclear anyway). Suggesting that people who don't do this just don't REALLY care is OTT and not in line with the XR no-blame and shame philosophy that recognises how hard this is, and the fact that the problem really needs to be tackled at a much higher level for anything to happen, as you yourself said.

XR are not perfect by any means, but thank goodness someone is finally doing something. I highly recommend reading This is Not a Drill, the XR "handbook" which is really a collection of essays about where we are, and where we could be, and the latter is actually a really inspiring and positive vision of a better future. In fact, I'll send a copy to the first 4 people who PM me here, let me know if you want one.

katanita Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> @uncleglen - I've been doing everything I can to
> reduce my carbon footprint over the last ten years
> or more. Weirdly, me taking personal
> responsibility for my carbon footprint doesn't
> seem to have solved this quite massive global
> issue
>
> Which brings me to @thecat. Correct! It is a
> global problem and the UK's part in causing it is
> relatively minor (but rather disproportionate all
> the same). Thank goodness then that XR is a global
> movement now, but one which has its origins in the
> UK, demonstrating nicely the way in which
> something started in one country can indeed have
> cascading effects throughout the world. Note that
> XR doesn't claim to be able to solve climate
> change. Rather, it has very specific demands
> which, if met, should bring about the awareness,
> clear objectives and democratic framework for real
> change to happen. For what precisely that change
> should be, it's over to the People's Assemblies
> and the work of experts such as those at Project
> Drawdown.
>
> The first goal is to get governments (and media)
> to tell the truth and I really don't see how you
> could argue that XR haven't made inroads here.
> Climate change is finally on the news and
> political agenda in a much bigger way than it has
> been in the past and Parliament did declare a
> climate emergency (just a start, but a start all
> the same). The second is to Act Now in agreeing to
> reduce carbon emissions to net zero by 2025 and
> stop destroying biodiversity. Got a long way to go
> here, but if one government can be persuaded to
> start acting on this basis, it should provide a
> useful model and potentially influence others to
> do the same. The third is to create Citizens
> Assemblies on climate change. This has begun to
> happen, isn't that good?
> [news.camden.gov.uk]
> y-to-take-on-climate-crisis-challenge/.
>
> I fail to see how we can solve a global problem
> WITHOUT starting at home. Of course other
> countries are bigger polluters etc, but I have
> pretty much zero opportunity for influence in
> China or India, unless you have some suggestions
> for how to do this?? In the absence of a better
> answer, we will continue with the direct action
> and community outreach such as that happening this
> weekend. Loads of people signed up to be part of
> the movement at Blackheath after finding out more,
> which is great.
>
> FWIW, I have indeed moved my banking to the most
> ethical and environmentally friendly options I
> could find. Have also had discussions about this
> within XR, so your assumption is off-base. But as
> we know, personal choices are not enough, and it
> is implausible to expect most people to have the
> time, energy and resources to audit all of their
> life choices to make sure that they are doing the
> right thing (which is often very unclear anyway).
> Suggesting that people who don't do this just
> don't REALLY care is OTT and not in line with the
> XR no-blame and shame philosophy that recognises
> how hard this is, and the fact that the problem
> really needs to be tackled at a much higher level
> for anything to happen, as you yourself said.
>
> XR are not perfect by any means, but thank
> goodness someone is finally doing something. I
> highly recommend reading This is Not a Drill, the
> XR "handbook" which is really a collection of
> essays about where we are, and where we could be,
> and the latter is actually a really inspiring and
> positive vision of a better future. In fact, I'll
> send a copy to the first 4 people who PM me here,
> let me know if you want one.

There's a number of things within this comment I could take issue with, but in the interest of everyone's time, let's just agree to disagree then.

I remain unconvinced your direct action does much more than make you and other XR demonstraters feel warm and fuzzy about 'making a difference'. I'm sorry that this view is probably belittling to your efforts, for a cause which I also believe strongly in. But, remember the 'occupy' movement? They were BIG news about 10 years ago, remember how much 'awareness' they raised about inequality and rampant capitalism? As a result, they really changed the way the economy and society works didn't they?...oh that's right...No they didn't.

Without going into detail, I have a lot of experience in this field, and I'm pretty confident I know what gets things done and what doesn't. But that's my view, I could well be wrong. You have your view, and good luck to you with it.

Seemingly we both desire the same outcome, but just ddisagree on the more effective ways to achieve that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2019:08:30:22:40:54 by TheCat.

give it a couple of weeks and the kids will be in uni and school and the oldies back in the charity shop

America, China, India, Russia ,Africa,Brazil,AND Amazon, Australia
Japan,
* They should All be doing More, for world extinction
* Helping Our Climate And Reducing the Damage done



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was 2019:08:31:13:06:28 by natty01295.

@thecat why not say what these other more effective ways are, or point us at organisations who are doing them then? Climate campaigners have been trying all sorts for years and nothing has yet worked (whereas, as I gave examples of above, XR has already, in a short space of time, moved the agenda on and started to get changes made). Is it just about getting pensions and investment funds to change priorities (really, that's it??), if so, how? Genuine question, as blocking roads and whatnot is actually not my idea of a good time, nor does it actually make me feel particularly warm and fuzzy. I just see that it seems to be having an effect, so continue. But all for a better solution if you have one.

And on Occupy, you may find Blueprint for Revolution an interesting read, in which Srdja Popovic points out exactly why Occupy failed (mostly due to very vague goals and demands). I would argue that XR is a different beast, much clearer in its aims and much better organised.

Agreed @natty01295, let's lead the way then.

@uncleglen not sure what your point is, the movement has continued to gain momentum since November, even more so since the April actions, no sign of it tailing off yet.

“The problem with trying to weaponize female hysteria is that female hysteria is not a very good weapon”

As soon as you used these words Charles Martel, you immediately had nothing of value to be heard

Yuk, you make me feel icky

"@thecat why not say what these other more effective ways are, or point us at organisations who are doing them then?"

That's exactly what I did in my first post. Perhaps you're not particularly familiar with how extremely effective it is and will continue to be, if you don't have a background in funds management, then that's understandable. I'm not talking about 'banking' which you referenced, I'm talking about the way everyone's pension is invested.

I can assure you that at the pointy end of climate change advcocacy (e.g.. the UN Convention framework for climate change) this is recognised as the most influential driver of positive change.

"Is it just about getting pensions and investment funds to change priorities (really, that's it??)"

While that is far and away the most effective thing you can do, no it's about more than that, I'm just not a fan of direct action, and of 'awareness' campaigns...do you really think there are people unaware of climate change?? I'd prefer to see you have some more targeted and tangible messing ...preferentially aimed at individuals and pointing out how they must change their lifestyles, not a govt and companies. You might actually achieve something if your 'target' was Joe public rather than 'the man'.

You're obviously a very committed individual who has adjusted your lifestyle to try and combat climate change. But I get horrendously frustrated at many people I know, who saunter along to these types of demonstrations, while also doing b+gger all to change their lifestyles; and then proceed to lecture everyone else about how they are "creating positive Change' just because they chose to carry a placard for a few hours....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2019:08:31:12:22:23 by TheCat.

oh dear...[www.dailymail.co.uk]

uncleglen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> oh
> dear...[www.dailymail.co.uk]
> 16263/Extinction-Rebellion-founder-reveals-inspire
> d-taking-psychedelic-medicines.html?ns_mchannel=rs
> s&ico=taboola_feed_desktop_news

Oh dear indeed, more base level sensationalist reporting from the Mail. No surprise tho

More balanced reporting from the mail’s source here:

[www.bbc.co.uk]

peckman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've been to Cambodia. Please do not compare pol
> pot to any climate change agenda . Whatever your
> thoughts on Greta she is doing a hell lot more
> than us to raise the agenda and talk about it .
> Fair play

Pol Pot was a fantasist before he was a genocidal. Extinction Rebellion may be cuddly, fuddy duddies, but they are still fantasists. The reality is our society depends on fossil fuels. We are phasing these out, but we are not going to just turn off 45.8% of our electricity generation capacity because some people lie down in the road and tell us that we should because they say so. We need to continue increasing renewables in our energy mix as fast as we can with nuclear.

[assets.publishing.service.gov.uk]

What exactly has anyone learned about climate change from Greta Thunberg that they did not already know? Nothing, because she only repeats what others have already said. Still she is obviously having fun on her gap year. Good luck to her.
Greta Thunberg joins hundreds of teenagers in climate protest [www.dailymail.co.uk]

Climate change, global warming, the greenhouse effect has been discussed and debated at the highest levels, nationally and internationally, for more than 30 years. Al Gore championed the issue before and after he was vice president. He wrote a best selling book, made an oscar winning documentary, staged a pop concert and helped broker the 1997 Kyoto Protocol. I think that most people would agree that Al Gore has done more to “raise awareness” or “raise the agenda” than Greta Thunberg has. However I had exactly the same criticism then of Al Gore's “An Inconvenient Truth” as I have now of Greta and Extinction Rebellion. Presenting your version of the problem really well, but without a credible solution, gets you nowhere. Or even worse you get green washed so-called carbon taxes which do nothing to address the problem, but produce a very negative reaction in the general population.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit was 2019:09:02:01:03:03 by Charles Martel.

binkylilyput Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> “The problem with trying to weaponize female
> hysteria is that female hysteria is not a very
> good weapon”
>
Interesting that you quote that line. That was was my summation of something that was said by Roger Hallam, the co-founder of Extinction Rebellion, in an interview. It was a youtube video so I did not take notes, but reproduced the sense of what he said from memory. He uses the analogy of a husband who ignores his wife's complaints until she starts screaming at him, suggesting that the environmental movement has been too rational and now needs to become more emotional. He states that he wants people to become upset and emotionally animated, i.e. play the role of the hysterical wife.

[youtu.be]

[www.peckhamfestival.org] - see attached poster and details below:

--

Extinction Rebellion in Southwark are holding an open meeting as part of the Peckham Festival in the Copeland Park and Bussey Building (Unit 2B) from 6pm to 11pm on Saturday the 14th of September.

This summer we have seen wildfires in the Arctic and unprecedented levels of deforestation in the Amazon that have brought home to all of us how critical the situation is right now. We will have an XR speaker at the meeting to explain the science of what is happening with the climate and ecological crisis and we will also have a second part to the meeting that is dedicated to discussing what we can do about it here in Southwark.

We are very keen to invite as many local people and groups as possible to be represented at the event and to use this as an opportunity to co-ordinate and strengthen our campaigns at a local level to deal with the climate emergency.

There are many local groups in Southwark actively campaigning to protect green spaces, improve air quality and reduce our reliance on carbon energy as well as trying to stop unsustainable development that will involve massive amounts of unnecessary carbon emissions as well as all the other negative impacts on the local community and the environment. As a council, Southwark has declared a climate emergency, but as a community we need to push for policies that will deliver the urgent action we need, not just from the council but from businesses, transport companies etc and the mayor and national government.

Please join us to talk about what your group is doing and how other people can get involved or support you. Please also extend this invitation to any other people or groups who you think may be interested.

WHy doesn't Extinction rebellion do any protests in China and India - the two largest contributors of waste (no recyclable) and CO2 emissions...

Should we all, ah, fly over to China to do this? Maybe we could take the pink boat on a trip. Doesn't carry that many people though. Hmm, what to do. Thankfully lots of XR groups already in India, though, you'll be pleased to hear, phew!

Classic internet whataboutery aside, maybe come along to the Peckham Festival event to ask there and find out what XR is doing in the local community and why we think that's important too.

paulu197 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WHy doesn't Extinction rebellion do any protests
> in China and India - the two largest contributors
> of waste (no recyclable) and CO2 emissions...

PS [www.walesonline.co.uk] a more detailed response to the China/India argument.

If any bakers would like to contribute any suitable foodstuff to next weeks proceedings, I am happy to bring it with mine when I attend next week. Please pm me if relevant to you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2019:09:30:18:14:47 by yeknomyeknom.

Also lots of other help needed, if you are interested in getting involved but aren't sure how, send me a PM and I can advise.

Not so carbon-nuetral Greta then
[www.thesun.co.uk]

and where do they get all that red fabric from?

This hypocrisy is exactly why I cancelled my subs to Friends of the Earth when I found out that Jonathon Porritt was flying around the world....

The Rebellion starts on Monday. Full details here [rebellion.earth]. If you're interested in getting involved but not part of a group yet PM me and I can help.

And don't worry about the above, it is impossible not to be a climate hypocrite on some level, XR has a principle of no blame and shame for individuals that recognises that it is wider systems that are really at fault and need to change.

uncleglen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not so carbon-nuetral Greta then
> [www.thesun.co.uk]
> rgs-carbon-free-yacht-trip-flights/
>
> and where do they get all that red fabric from?
>
> This hypocrisy is exactly why I cancelled my subs
> to Friends of the Earth when I found out that
> Jonathon Porritt was flying around the world....

It's ridiculous to think that one cannot call for systematic change, whilst being part of the existing system. This amounts in practice to simple nihilism.

“Simple nihilism”

Have you MET uncle before?

I feel obliged to post this internet classic [thenib.com] followed by its recent update [thenib.com]

Dig deep people
[www.standard.co.uk]

and that was in May....these people are just anarchists and various old farts having a last hurrah...

I went to a very interesting Gresham Lecture on Monday evening:
"How to Avert a Climate Catastrophe - Professor Vicky Pope will discuss the challenges of climate modelling and reduction of emissions; Dr Damien Short will talk about why we need to legislate against Ecocide; and Professor Geoffrey Beattie will discuss the psychology that stops us from taking action."

Link to the video & transcripts at:
[www.gresham.ac.uk]