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messageRe: More protests in Westminster: Saturday & Tuesday
Posted by JohnL 02 September, 2019 17:21

paulu197 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Note that the PM is actually elected. We vote for
> a party not a leader, its the party's perogative
> to decide who should lead. Simple

Works in a parliamentary type democracy but we're moving towards one where the PM is much more Presidential and then there's Dom Cummings ;)

messageRe: More protests in Westminster: Saturday & Tuesday
Posted by diable rouge 02 September, 2019 17:49

paulu197 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Note that the PM is actually elected. We vote for
> a party not a leader, its the party's perogative
> to decide who should lead. Simple

Not so simple, many people will base their vote depending on who the party leader is, for example I won't vote for Labour while Corbyn is their leader...

messageRe: More protests in Westminster: Saturday & Tuesday
Posted by seenbeen 02 September, 2019 17:53

Yes- I vote according to the manifesto that is put out there...who cares who the figure head is....unfortunately the number of U turns they all do is pretty alarming

messageRe: More protests in Westminster: Saturday & Tuesday
Posted by paulu197 02 September, 2019 18:58

diable rouge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> paulu197 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Note that the PM is actually elected. We vote
> for
> > a party not a leader, its the party's
> perogative
> > to decide who should lead. Simple
>
> Not so simple, many people will base their vote
> depending on who the party leader is, for example
> I won't vote for Labour while Corbyn is their
> leader...

But if people don't know the system, you can't have them incorrectly announce that the leader is unelected when they are elected. SAme with Remain / Leave, people should always investigate the options at hand and make an informed decision.
Re: Corbyn. He calls the conservatives party as a party in shambles yet Labor is still only garnering 20% share of the vote according to the polls. IN all seriousness the Labor party should be at 45-50%...this falls on Corbyn. He needs to go. In order to have a decent government we need a decent opposition and Corbyn isn't. LAbor is not for the people but for the ideologies...it's a shame....and yes I am not a Labor voter...more centre right...don't hate me smiling smiley

messageRe: More protests in Westminster: Saturday & Tuesday
Posted by paulu197 02 September, 2019 19:01

And this pretty much sums it up and you can take polls with a grain of salt. Despite all the protests...people are warming to Boris and cooling even more to Corbyn

[yougov.co.uk]

messageRe: More protests in Westminster: Saturday & Tuesday
Posted by Hemingway 03 September, 2019 15:53

Politicians are all @#$%& putting political advantage over principles since year dot.

The less power and control they have the better.

- a referendum was put in the Tory manifesto for political expediency, but the promise probably did win the election for the Tories
- because useless Ed, whose reforms let the 3 quid trots back in remember, didn't win, even many sane Labour members went into some collective nervous breakdown and elected a useless , Marxist, anti-EU duffer into power at a critical time. (own it ,they've wrecked Labour as broad church left party, probably for ever)
- Cameron, convinced that Grant on the basis of Australian politics and his unexpected election victory (and lulled into a sense of security the Scottish referendum) was a genius, ran a project fear referendum campaign that was terrible; Corbyn held a few token rallies for remain but was largely absent from the 'MMS' and remain campaign
- Brexiters faired better with simple slogans, dog whistles and smarter analytics (see also Obama); they were also aided by events (Syria's implosion and Merkel's open invite and subsequent refugee crisis that peaked that year.
- having lost the referendum Cameron @#$%& off to his shed
- useless May believed the polls and her snap election disaster ruined any chance of a decent deal, backbenchers behaving or tougher negotiations; probably beyond her capability anyway.
- her deal, which was about as good as we could have got by then, was rejected on several occasions by the HoC
- All weekend it was a Coup and yet today no-one wants an election.

Useless waste of our time, resource and our country's reputation and standing; a plague on most of them (and us voters)

messageRe: More protests in Westminster: Saturday & Tuesday
Posted by Sephiroth 03 September, 2019 20:07

I would agree with some of that Hems, but Ill give my version (any instance of the word you should not be aimed at you Hems)

If someone (anyone) gives you a dumb binary choice, dont vote for the dumb one (no matter who they or you are). If they choose the dumb option then it really really is on them - not anyone else. If you really want to leave the eu, formulate a pragmatic version of how that would work over 5-10 years, stop calling the people you need deals with the enemy and then put that to a vote

careful what you wish for. If you keep voting in a rag tag Tory governments then the opposition will mutate to find the antidote

If a country constantly derides its politicians, clever people will swerve being them and we end up with career dullards and worse

Looking at other countries, nowhere is perfect. But the countries that have some kind of bond between electorate and politicians work best. Taking too much power from politicians doesnt work too well (Im open to being corrected)

Spending a week in another eu country this past week has been a blessed relief. They dont hold their politicians in high regard but they also know they cant deliver the undeliverable/undesirable.

Only the uk thinks this thing can and should be done - as long as it continues to think this way then it will continue to generate nothing but chaos and anger and impotent rage

messageRe: More protests in Westminster: Saturday & Tuesday
Posted by Loutwo 03 September, 2019 20:45

Sephiroth, all of what you say is a good take on matters, but I think youre missing one crucial point in all of your analysis.

In three words, The Conservative Party.

Consistently, since we joined the common market they have fought this internal battle with finding a post Empire place in the world, constantly harping back to the Second World War and consequent industrial decline of the country. It runs through the veins of this countries go-to party of Government. A large chunk of the party, ultimately have severe hang ups over all of the above, and need someone, something to blame. The EU is a constant thorn in the side of a party which still deep down believes we are too good to be part of such a post-national identity organisation.

Its not just that the Tories are perceived as the natural party of government, its that they have managed to make a substantial chunk of the British population believe their post-Empire hang ups are valid concerns. And that we can and must find a way to govern ourselves, whatever the cost. Unemployment, further decline, severed international relations, none of this matters as long as we are free.

This isnt everyone of course, the left also have a good take on why supranational organisations such as the EU dont work for the people. But the left has nowhere near as much influence on the British psyche as the Tories seem to have had over the generations. How we overcome that, I dont know.

Louisa.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2019:09:03:20:46:12 by Loutwo.

messageRe: More protests in Westminster: Saturday & Tuesday
Posted by Sephiroth 03 September, 2019 21:03

I think by now most people who know me know my feelings on the tories

But I wanted to keep the tone general as both parties are as bad as each other. I think a brexit under Corbyn government will be a total disaster and will ruin labour for generations. And that saddens me

But do I think even that disaster would be better than allowing this Tory government to continue? Yes yes I do. But thats FPTP for you. Uk @@ked that referendum as well

messageRe: More protests in Westminster: Saturday & Tuesday
Posted by Passiflora 03 September, 2019 23:03

But Sephiroth, you have just spent a week in another EU country and said it was a blessed relief. Why?

As somebody who voted to Leave in the 2016 Referendum I really don't think the UK should be worried about how the EU are viewing us.

messageRe: More protests in Westminster: Saturday & Tuesday
Posted by Sephiroth 04 September, 2019 05:41

By your own words are you damned

messageRe: More protests in Westminster: Saturday & Tuesday
Posted by exdulwicher 04 September, 2019 07:39

Passiflora Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But Sephiroth, you have just spent a week in
> another EU country and said it was a blessed
> relief. Why?
>
> As somebody who voted to Leave in the 2016
> Referendum I really don't think the UK should be
> worried about how the EU are viewing us.

I think the UK needs to be very worried about how not just the EU but the entire rest of the world is viewing us. Never before has a country voluntarily elected to make itself poorer, less influential, more isolated. Never before has a Government been shown to be so wildly incompentent.

I mean, there are corrupt Governments, dictatorships etc but in a supposed democratic first-world nation, our Government has shown the world that it is composed almost entirely of a bunch of lying self-serving charlatans, spivs and incompetents. Newspapers all over the world are saying the same thing - countries are looking on in a mixture of sadness that a once-respected nation has sunk this low, incredulity that they're continuing on this course of action, and they're thinking - do we really want to do trade deals with these people, do we want them in collaborative porjects, do we want to use their services and goods, can we trust them?

So yes, our world standing is vitally important to us.

messageRe: More protests in Westminster: Saturday & Tuesday
Posted by Loutwo 04 September, 2019 09:22

I dont think we would be in this position if politicians had respected the result of the referendum and accepted Mays withdrawal agreement, months ago. Rather than this endless self-serving going round in circles, some wanting more referendums, some not wanting to leave at all, others want to leave without a deal. MPs could have, and should have coalesced around that withdrawal agreement back in March and then worked together to shape the future negotiations. We would now at least have moved on from some of the polarisation and be talking about other stuff now.

Louisa.

messageRe: More protests in Westminster: Saturday & Tuesday
Posted by Sephiroth 04 September, 2019 09:26

If mays deal passed it would have made everyone worse off and pleased no one

I know loads of people are seeing it as some sort of panacea but we would have left, no way back in and be worse off with endless finger pointing and blame doing the rounds. Mays deal is the answer to nothing (and if is resurrected and finally passed as a compromise, you can bookmark this post)

Its entirely lazy thinking and indicative of this whole process - pretending only politicians didnt want mays deal forgets entirely that most people didnt want it either. Just like when this entire debacle is finished you wont find anyone who admits to voting to leave

[www.google.co.uk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2019:09:04:09:29:03 by Sephiroth.

messageRe: More protests in Westminster: Saturday & Tuesday
Posted by Loutwo 04 September, 2019 09:45

Thats utter rubbish. You will find plenty of people who openly admit to leaving and wont be happy until we do leave. Mays deal now looks a fair compromise compared to the current setup. A second referendum wont pass, no-deal looks unlikely to pass, even a general election looks unlikely to be approved. Therefore, the withdrawal agreement does seem like a good middle road out. The EU wont negotiate anything else at this stage anyway. If we just get MPs to pass the withdrawal agreement and then get a cross party future relationship negotiation team together, we can start healing these wounds.

I honestly cant see any other middle way out, which will start the healing process whilst also respecting the referendum outcome.

Louisa.

messageRe: More protests in Westminster: Saturday & Tuesday
Posted by Sephiroth 04 September, 2019 09:47

If you think mays deal, where the uk accepts eu rules but has no say in them, will placate leavers and heal wounds you are even more deluded than I already think you are



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2019:09:04:09:51:25 by Sephiroth.

messageRe: More protests in Westminster: Saturday & Tuesday
Posted by Loutwo 04 September, 2019 09:51

So what do you think we should do? Im assuming you are STILL fixated on a second referendum despite all the warnings and further polarisation?

This is why we are getting nowhere. People are entrenched and not willing to compromise. Thats why our democracy is failing us. The country reached a decision, we need to come together with a middle road option.

Louisa.

messageRe: More protests in Westminster: Saturday & Tuesday
Posted by JohnL 04 September, 2019 10:00

As I said previously - 5 years in EFTA/EEA with an agreement to review and fast track back into the EU or to leave with a free trade agreement after that.

EU have already offered this to Theresa May but it was disregarded by her.

Edit: That's my compromise position - My original position is strong remain.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2019:09:04:10:01:52 by JohnL.

messageRe: More protests in Westminster: Saturday & Tuesday
Posted by Loutwo 04 September, 2019 10:01

JohnL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As I said previously - 5 years in EFTA/EEA with an
> agreement to review and fast track back into the
> EU or to leave with a free trade agreement after
> that.
>
> EU have already offered this to Theresa May but it
> was disregarded by her.


Now this is a decent compromise. No chance under a ERG run Tory government though.

Louisa.

messageRe: More protests in Westminster: Saturday & Tuesday
Posted by Sephiroth 04 September, 2019 10:11

Using language like fixated on is pretty weird - its the path of solution in other countries. Other countries which have survived such crazy ideas

But using words like compromise makes you feel warm and cosy like you are the sensible one when all it means is you havent understood the problem. The problem is still the lie that the people can just leave the eu with no major problem. And that cant happen no matter how much pretending you do

There are no easy solutions but Ive already outlined mine. Remaining is the best option as it immediately stops the clock ticking. There is then no external pressure. All we have to deal with are angry leaver voters. But and heres the thing. They will remain angry if we leave with a deal, with no deal or remain. So we have to deal with them no matter what

I would revoke now and skip referendum given the time constraints. I would tell Leavers the idea isnt abandoned but before we can address leaving again they have to organise, define what kind of shape leave they want and agree on it. Then that could feasibly be out to a referendum at a future date

But thats just too logical. So proceed as you see fit. No deal, deal a la may - whatever. But listening to Brits butch about it for years to come with severely diminished rights and powers , you can be the one reminding everyone but it was a compromise!!!!

messageRe: More protests in Westminster: Saturday & Tuesday
Posted by diable rouge 04 September, 2019 11:19

May's deal didn't respect the referendum, it provided a very hard Brexit and didn't reflect the closeness of the result. My take at the time, and it's written on here somewhere in one of the myriad of threads, was that Brexit at the time of the referendum was nothing more than a concept, the Brexiters needed to go away, take as long as they needed, and come up with a coherent plan for what exactly Brexit meant, no catchy slogans/soundbites, actual policies and solutions such as the Irish border, and once done put that to a second ratification vote, this was before the People's Vote idea came about. I didn't think that was a compromise, more a pragmatic, logical and fair thing to do, something that the Brits were once famed for.
As for now, I'm with Seph, we need to stop Brexit asap, it's dragging the country down and down, we need to get back to some normality. The Brexiters have had long enough to facilitate Brexit and failed miserably. This doesn't stop Brexit from happening in the future, the Brexiters can go away and do what I suggested, come up with a clear coherent plan but rather than another referendum, it has to be done via an election, part of a party's manifesto. The biggest mistake was distilling Brexit from everything else in a binary referendum, when the reality is it affects everything, and therefore needs to be judged as part of an overall political manifesto...

messageRe: More protests in Westminster: Saturday & Tuesday
Posted by JohnL 04 September, 2019 11:54

Fair enough - all good ideas above.

messageRe: More protests in Westminster: Saturday & Tuesday
Posted by exdulwicher 04 September, 2019 12:23

Quote:
May's deal didn't respect the referendum, it provided a very hard Brexit and didn't reflect the closeness of the result.

Agreed but added to that is the problem were now in where literally nothing "respects the result of the referendum" because it was never spelled out HOW we leave.

With a deal (and if so what kind of deal) without a deal...
Michael Gove said there's no chance of us leaving without a deal because we'll get a great deal. We were told that a deal would be "the easiest thing in human history". We were promised that we could stay in the single market.

All sorts of random promises, statements, all of them total bollocks and none of them fully understood by the politicians and assorted hangers on making them or by the public hearing/reading them.

May's deal didn't get rejected by traitorous Remoaners, it got rejected by ultra-hard Brexiteers for whom it wasn't hard enough (mostly because it still meant the UK would be bound by the new EU Anti Tax Avoidance laws). So until the Brexiteers can actually agree what "leave" means and until they can sell that idea to the public we can't leave!

This is all it is to the tiny cabal of ultra-right-wing elites. A tax dodging measure so they can be even richer. There is no version of Brexit that benefits the general public in any way.

messageRe: More protests in Westminster: Saturday & Tuesday
Posted by pk 04 September, 2019 15:02

exdulwicher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> May's deal didn't respect the referendum, it
> provided a very hard Brexit and didn't reflect the
> closeness of the result.
>
> Agreed but added to that is the problem were now
> in where literally nothing "respects the result of
> the referendum" because it was never spelled out
> HOW we leave.
>
I totally agree - the referendum was flawed from the start - effectively it asked 'shall we stay as we are or shall we do something different' (but offering no clarity on what something different meant and as we can see now people interpreted (and still interpret) what leave means differently

leave doesn't mean leave in any certain way and brexit doesn't mean anything specific either

messageRe: More protests in Westminster: Saturday & Tuesday
Posted by Sephiroth 04 September, 2019 15:07

For what its worth, I remain extremely pessimistic

Firstly - no deal is still the default. Johnson still has to request and eu still have to agree to any extension. If I was then I would wonder why bother? We said dont waste the time 6 months ago but the state of ye!

Secondly, everyone rah rahing about last night but that was all about democratic process, and included many many non-remainers. Leaving with some imaginary beneficial deal is still the most many people are hoping for.

messageRe: More protests in Westminster: Saturday & Tuesday
Posted by Sephiroth 04 September, 2019 15:09

Basically it needs every living citizen who thinks leaving in any capacity will leave us worse off to be more vocal in saying so. The more people who do that the more the window shifts to it being possible

Pretending there is some compromise with insanity is no good to anyone

messageRe: More protests in Westminster: Saturday & Tuesday
Posted by diable rouge 04 September, 2019 15:31

Sephiroth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Firstly - no deal is still the default. Johnson
> still has to request and eu still have to agree to
> any extension. If I was then I would wonder why
> bother? We said dont waste the time 6 months
> ago but the state of ye!

True, the Bill if it passes only moves No Deal to another date, in this case 31st Jan. Only revoke or accepting a deal takes ND completely off the table. The Bill makes it clear that the PM has to ask for an extension, that would be enshrined in law. I think if it gets to that stage he's more likely to resign than have the optics of going to Brussels cap in hand. He must realise that now, hence all the goading of Corbyn to seek an early GE, his only Get Out of Jail card.
The EU may think that but they are the ones who have been sensible and pragmatic during the process and I'm sure they would grant one, especially if as likely there will be an election, for them that's better than ND...

messageRe: More protests in Westminster: Saturday & Tuesday
Posted by Loutwo 04 September, 2019 15:35

A minority of hard line Brexiteers know it will make us worse off, they dont care. Sovereignty is their main concern.

A more substantial number of people, myself included, know it will do damage, but remain committed to democratic processes, and feel uneasy about revocation or further referenda to overturn that decision made in 2016.

I know this sounds harsh, but I genuinely feel uncomfortable with this by any means necessary preventing Brexit strategy of some, is just not going to achieve anything other than anger the majority who voted for it, and now feel can be told to do one and come up with a strategy to achieve their aim via some sort of make believe version of Brexit, conjured up over a unlimited number of years, and then we get to vote again on that version. Its all deeply undemocratic to expect the general populace to have any sort of understanding over and above Do you wish to remain in the EU? YES or NO.

Louisa.

messageRe: More protests in Westminster: Saturday & Tuesday
Posted by Sephiroth 04 September, 2019 15:39

Could you be more limp Lou?

If you feel uneasy go and visit countries who have second referendums and resort back on how unhealthy and undemocratic they are

Mogg said in the radio a couple of days ago that problem with a second referendum was that it WOULD overturn the first. Is the Democratic will of the people NOW can not be listened to

You cling to this corrupted notion of democracy like the old couple in Raymond Briggs when the wind blows holding on to the government pamphlet telling them their nuclear shelter will protect them

Democracy isnt a single point in time and then never again. Thats what dictators do

messageRe: More protests in Westminster: Saturday & Tuesday
Posted by Pugwash 04 September, 2019 15:56

May's deal was better than nothing - the backstop seemed to be a sensible compromise allowing more time to sort out the border questions etc.

The DUP MPs have not been representing their constituents in NI Parliament but are still drawing their salary, if I lived in NI I would be asking my constituency party to deselect them.

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