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messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Sephiroth 14 December, 2019 22:56

Thatís two points I agree with The Cat on in as many days. Well...

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by TheCat 14 December, 2019 23:00

Sephiroth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thatís two points I agree with The Cat on in as
> many days. Well...


Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy......smiling smiley

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Loutwo 14 December, 2019 23:14

TheCat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does the 'working class' still exist? A decent
> tradesman will make more tha most office workers.
> So where does the 'middle class' begin and end....


The working class is fragmented. You have a welfare dependent class, many of which will of course appreciate the Corbyn message. You then have a hard working but low paid class, who might appreciate some of Corbynís offering but equally be offended by him as a person and therefore not vote for him. You then have the former working class, whoíve made good financially but hang onto there cultural roots, and probably vote for whoever makes them better off in the pocket. Which probably wonít be Corbyn. And then you have the hard core die in a ditch Labour stalwarts of northern towns and cities, who want a decent NHS and well funded welfare state, but despise Corbynís Islington socialism, whilst also being vehemently pro-brexit and patriotic, who will hold their nose in a ballot box to elect anyone who isnít Corbyn.

Then you have people who live in 2 mil plus houses in Clapham, Putney and Dulwich, who will probably be shafted by Labour but vote for them because they want a scando-style socialist utopian bubble, which probably wouldnít happen because the supposed 5% of multi millionaires who will be paying for this, will have already legged it to Singapore.

The class struggle is real, but it needs someone like Tony Blair from a social democratic centrist stance to begin to remedy it, not a boogey-man from the far left who will scare off the high earners. Sweden or Denmark we are not.

Louisa.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by uncleglen 15 December, 2019 00:37

The path to Brexit was started by Blair and when Gordon Brown referred to Gillian Duffy as a 'bigoted woman' just because she asked about immigration the contempt that Labour had for poor white working class communities was made plain...they sowed the wind and Corbyn reaped the whirlwind

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by diable rouge 15 December, 2019 10:26

dbboy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The election confirmed the voters decision of the
> referendum, that they want to leave Europe.

Not really, two different voting systems used, if you followed the referendum voting system that every vote counts i.e. proportional representation, you would've ended up with a very different looking parliament, as the split in the total votes cast was actually around...wait for it...52% to 48% in favour of Remain/2nd Ref partied. These numbers tie in with polls over the past 12 months or so that have consistently shown Remain in front if there was a 2nd ref. The Remain vote was split and both Labour and Lib Dems need to hold their hands up over that.

Lots of headlines of a Tory landslide win but their vote only went up 1% from the last election, it was actually a Labour backslide, down 4%, which suggests that a lot of their voters didn't vote rather then switch to the Tories. Worth mentioning that the Greens got more votes than the Brexit Party, would be nice in the future if the BBC reflected this on their political panels. If there's one silver lining to be had from this election it's that Farage is never seen or heard of again...

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by diable rouge 15 December, 2019 12:30

Oh FFS, pleaae make it stop, it's now The People's Government
Another 3-word ditty, that's where Labour went wrong, For the Many Not the Few was Dostoevsky when they needed Jackie Collins...

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by uncleglen 15 December, 2019 12:42

Hemingway Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> From Twitter
>
> On every level, Corbynism has been a foul debacle.
> It has stunk out British politics. The dustbin of
> history awaits. @#$%& off back to your paper sales
> and meetings above pubs. Give politics back to
> decent people.
>
> Well said

Yes- everything that came out of Corbyn's mouth reminded me of the old WRP back in the 1970s, selling the paper outside the Tube at Mile End and Whitechapel; told to target the ethnic minorities, listening to Vanessa Redgrave and other airhead luvvies spouting quotes from Marx and Engels whilst knowing NOTHING about their REAL lives.....

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by diable rouge 15 December, 2019 12:48

And WTF does Johnson and all the other millionaires in the Tory party know about REAL lives? Keep doffing your cap and tugging your forelock to your masters...

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Grove boy 15 December, 2019 14:09

About as much as the millionaires behind Corbyn, John Lansmann and Len Mcklusky etc.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by cella 15 December, 2019 14:26

uncleglen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The path to Brexit was started by Blair and when
> Gordon Brown referred to Gillian Duffy as a
> 'bigoted woman' just because she asked about
> immigration the contempt that Labour had for poor
> white working class communities was made
> plain...they sowed the wind and Corbyn reaped the
> whirlwind


Clearly not true - more nonsense from you.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by cella 15 December, 2019 14:29

uncleglen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hemingway Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > From Twitter
> >
> > On every level, Corbynism has been a foul
> debacle.
> > It has stunk out British politics. The dustbin
> of
> > history awaits. @#$%& off back to your paper
> sales
> > and meetings above pubs. Give politics back to
> > decent people.
> >
> > Well said
>
> Yes- everything that came out of Corbyn's mouth
> reminded me of the old WRP back in the 1970s,
> selling the paper outside the Tube at Mile End and
> Whitechapel; told to target the ethnic minorities,
> listening to Vanessa Redgrave and other airhead
> luvvies spouting quotes from Marx and Engels
> whilst knowing NOTHING about their REAL lives.....


You are stuck in a massive time warp and can't let it go. You presumably have the leader and government you want now - why not take a long rest from here and enjoy the fruits of your toil as you'll be so much better off. Apparently.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Captain Marvel 15 December, 2019 15:13

'You are stuck in a massive time warp and can't let it go. ' Irony bypass

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by cella 15 December, 2019 15:45

Brothers in arms. Shouldn't you two be out kicking the poor or something.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Captain Marvel 15 December, 2019 16:15

Ho ho ho

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by dbboy 15 December, 2019 20:02

So what Corbyn preached wasn't even his own thoughts but from a 17th Century journalist, say's it all really!!!!!!

diable rouge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh FFS, pleaae make it stop, it's now The People's
> Government
> Another 3-word ditty, that's where Labour went
> wrong, For the Many Not the Few was Dostoevsky
> when they needed Jackie Collins...

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by cella 15 December, 2019 21:37

Admin - think this thread with its title has served its purpose now? Now serving as a vehicle for the usual suspects to endlessly rant and spout rubbish retrospectively now the election is over.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Seabag 15 December, 2019 23:25

cella Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Admin - think this thread with its title has
> served its purpose now? Now serving as a vehicle
> for the usual suspects to endlessly rant and spout
> rubbish retrospectively now the election is over.

Agreed

Can we close this now. It been interesting, but itís done.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by fishbiscuits 15 December, 2019 23:32

TheCat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does the 'working class' still exist? A decent
> tradesman will make more tha most office workers.
> So where does the 'middle class' begin and end....

Plumbers and electricians earn decent money, yes.

How about cleaners? Shop and restaurant staff? Workers in Amazon/Sports Direct/etc warehouses?

The dividing lines are less clear, but surely the issues are the same..

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by cella 15 December, 2019 23:41

This is a question, like so many, to direct at anyone who voted for Johnson.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Blah Blah 16 December, 2019 07:22

uncleglen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'd like to know who these 'people' are at risk,(or even extreme danger') from 5 years of Boris- I could go so far as to liken the thought of 5 years of Labour to the 'Great Leap Forward' and we all
> know how that turned out!

Here you go. Here are some of those who have died directly because of the polices of the last nine years, policies that will not change under Boris.

[www.theguardian.com]

[www.independent.co.uk]

[www.theguardian.com]

[www.theguardian.com]

[www.theguardian.com]

I could list hundreds of these stories.

And then don't forget this either!

[www.theguardian.com]

[www.bbc.co.uk]

Stop embarrassing yourself with your willful ignorance.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2019:12:16:08:44:56 by Blah Blah.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Blah Blah 16 December, 2019 07:56

I think Louisa got closest to why the working classes have fragmented and didn't get behind Labour this time. Corbyn is a republican, but the working classes traditionally are not republicans, and nor are they interested in ideological arguments around radical politics. Corbyn and his stalwarts had become a parody of a student revolutionary movement. The manifesto was naive and failed completely to understand the underlying aspirational culture of the electorate.

People don't want socialism. They want opportunity. Access to decent jobs, owning their own home, good education and healthcare, and so on. All things that a fairer form of capitalism can deliver through a mixed economy. When Labour makes that case, it wins elections. The next leader needs to be someone free of controversial baggage, who can make those arguments and win back working class support, while persuading the middle classes that a fairer society is a more harmonious one.

What has gone wrong since the financial crash of 2008 (and let's remember that was a global crash that emanated from the USA), is that austerity policy, felt hardest by those on the ground, the poorest, has been exploited by the likes of Farage (and a xenophobic underbelly led by the far and alt right) who created bogeymen to deflect from the real culprits that have delivered this unfair system of capitalism, namely our own successive governments, that have stripped away upward social mobility. A good example of this is housing supply. The statistics around changing demographics, affordability, non replacement of sold off social homes, and failure to build enough new homes, have become thrown out for some nonsense about immigration. It's almost as though our own governments have had nothing to do with it through their own regressive policies! That is the cognitive dissonance at play here.

Labour were right about quite a few things. We do live in a world that is being asset and profit stripped by a ridiculously small number of corporations and individuals and at a time where a growing global population is increasingly aspiration. These two things are going to clash at some point. And what government do to tax and regulation matters in addressing this. This will become an increasing area of discussion in the future. There is nothing that Boris offers in way of addressing any of this. And there is real concern that his Brexit means taking the UK into tax haven territory. Well tax havens increasingly use indirect taxation to fill the deficits lost through direct tax cuts. And the people most affected by that tax structure, are the poorest.

But it is also true to say that Boris is not as home and dry as he thinks he is. He now has to deliver on all those promises. He also has around 80 MPs who represent former Labour heartlands, where working class people feel disenfranchised precisely because of the broken structures I cite above. It is not in the Tory mindset to do the kinds of things that need to be done to fix some of those things. So for me, the thing to watch over the next five years, is how hard those 80 MPs work to try and move the direction of the Tory party to genuinely serve those constituents. Or will they not bother? Worth remembering that Boris is the PM who threw out MPs for defying the whip. This is dark territory. Also the noises being made about redressing the power balance between the courts, civil service, Parliament and the Executive are dark territory. There will be plenty for Labour to chew on in opposition, if they finally find the right leader, and a real chance for the Tory party to step into the center ground, if they choose to.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2019:12:16:08:03:15 by Blah Blah.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Loutwo 16 December, 2019 09:05

Excellent post Blah Blah. I think youíve hit the nail on the head.

Louisa.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Captain Marvel 16 December, 2019 09:38

'if they choose to'

I think they do choose to (apologies for the paywall)

[www.thetimes.co.uk]

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Blah Blah 16 December, 2019 10:02

What they say they will do and what they actually do still remains to be seen Captain Marvel. One of the odd things about investment is how much of it finds its way into the coffers and share portfolios of big contractors too close to ministerial private interests, as opposed to being genuinely felt on the ground. Where is the investment for small business, education and the individual? Tory economic thinking tends to favour big business and grandiose infrastructure, over that start up some long term unemployed person with skills could get going in a declining region. Fifty thousand nurses may also sound great, but Blair increased public sector personnel by three million. Which figure do you think is the one where people really do see a difference in their local community? We all remember the Downing Street speeches where Thatcher quote St.Francis and May promised to help the poor. Neither delivered. Words are easy. Actions speak louder.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by diable rouge 16 December, 2019 10:17

Whooosh!...


dbboy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So what Corbyn preached wasn't even his own
> thoughts but from a 17th Century journalist, say's
> it all really!!!!!!
>
> diable rouge Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Oh FFS, pleaae make it stop, it's now The
> People's
> > Government
> > Another 3-word ditty, that's where Labour went
> > wrong, For the Many Not the Few was Dostoevsky
> > when they needed Jackie Collins...

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by diable rouge 16 December, 2019 10:23

Grove boy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> About as much as the millionaires behind Corbyn,
> John Lansmann and Len Mcklusky etc.

Congratulations, that has to be the 'best' false equivalence anyone on this forum has come up with...

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by JohnL 16 December, 2019 10:28

McDonnell excused himself and left real fast, Corbyn staying for "reflection" and the contenders line up as

favorite is Becky Long-Bailey (not Rebecca anymore it seems)
Angela Raynor
Lisa Nandy
Keir Starmer

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by JohnL 16 December, 2019 10:30

OKay a blast from the past, David Mellor was on Sky News this morning saying how Boris should get rid of Rees-Mogg as he keeps putting his foot in it.

I suppressed a little giggle remembering Mellor and feet.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2019:12:16:10:31:18 by JohnL.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Captain Marvel 16 December, 2019 10:35

'Blair increased public sector personnel by three million'

You say that like it's a good thing.

Anyway, it could be argued ad nauseam, I'm just suggesting that it looks like the intent is there, and that clearly not everybody sees demons when they look at the Conservatives.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Loutwo 16 December, 2019 10:39

Indeed blah blah, and perhaps this is why the Labour Party needs to get its act together ASAP if they are to successfully scrutinise what is in effect a landslide government.

Louisa.

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