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messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Captain Marvel 15 December, 2019 16:15

Ho ho ho

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by dbboy 15 December, 2019 20:02

So what Corbyn preached wasn't even his own thoughts but from a 17th Century journalist, say's it all really!!!!!!

diable rouge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh FFS, pleaae make it stop, it's now The People's
> Government
> Another 3-word ditty, that's where Labour went
> wrong, For the Many Not the Few was Dostoevsky
> when they needed Jackie Collins...

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by cella 15 December, 2019 21:37

Admin - think this thread with its title has served its purpose now? Now serving as a vehicle for the usual suspects to endlessly rant and spout rubbish retrospectively now the election is over.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Seabag 15 December, 2019 23:25

cella Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Admin - think this thread with its title has
> served its purpose now? Now serving as a vehicle
> for the usual suspects to endlessly rant and spout
> rubbish retrospectively now the election is over.

Agreed

Can we close this now. It been interesting, but it’s done.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by fishbiscuits 15 December, 2019 23:32

TheCat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does the 'working class' still exist? A decent
> tradesman will make more tha most office workers.
> So where does the 'middle class' begin and end....

Plumbers and electricians earn decent money, yes.

How about cleaners? Shop and restaurant staff? Workers in Amazon/Sports Direct/etc warehouses?

The dividing lines are less clear, but surely the issues are the same..

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by cella 15 December, 2019 23:41

This is a question, like so many, to direct at anyone who voted for Johnson.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Blah Blah 16 December, 2019 07:22

uncleglen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'd like to know who these 'people' are at risk,(or even extreme danger') from 5 years of Boris- I could go so far as to liken the thought of 5 years of Labour to the 'Great Leap Forward' and we all
> know how that turned out!

Here you go. Here are some of those who have died directly because of the polices of the last nine years, policies that will not change under Boris.

[www.theguardian.com]

[www.independent.co.uk]

[www.theguardian.com]

[www.theguardian.com]

[www.theguardian.com]

I could list hundreds of these stories.

And then don't forget this either!

[www.theguardian.com]

[www.bbc.co.uk]

Stop embarrassing yourself with your willful ignorance.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2019:12:16:08:44:56 by Blah Blah.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Blah Blah 16 December, 2019 07:56

I think Louisa got closest to why the working classes have fragmented and didn't get behind Labour this time. Corbyn is a republican, but the working classes traditionally are not republicans, and nor are they interested in ideological arguments around radical politics. Corbyn and his stalwarts had become a parody of a student revolutionary movement. The manifesto was naive and failed completely to understand the underlying aspirational culture of the electorate.

People don't want socialism. They want opportunity. Access to decent jobs, owning their own home, good education and healthcare, and so on. All things that a fairer form of capitalism can deliver through a mixed economy. When Labour makes that case, it wins elections. The next leader needs to be someone free of controversial baggage, who can make those arguments and win back working class support, while persuading the middle classes that a fairer society is a more harmonious one.

What has gone wrong since the financial crash of 2008 (and let's remember that was a global crash that emanated from the USA), is that austerity policy, felt hardest by those on the ground, the poorest, has been exploited by the likes of Farage (and a xenophobic underbelly led by the far and alt right) who created bogeymen to deflect from the real culprits that have delivered this unfair system of capitalism, namely our own successive governments, that have stripped away upward social mobility. A good example of this is housing supply. The statistics around changing demographics, affordability, non replacement of sold off social homes, and failure to build enough new homes, have become thrown out for some nonsense about immigration. It's almost as though our own governments have had nothing to do with it through their own regressive policies! That is the cognitive dissonance at play here.

Labour were right about quite a few things. We do live in a world that is being asset and profit stripped by a ridiculously small number of corporations and individuals and at a time where a growing global population is increasingly aspiration. These two things are going to clash at some point. And what government do to tax and regulation matters in addressing this. This will become an increasing area of discussion in the future. There is nothing that Boris offers in way of addressing any of this. And there is real concern that his Brexit means taking the UK into tax haven territory. Well tax havens increasingly use indirect taxation to fill the deficits lost through direct tax cuts. And the people most affected by that tax structure, are the poorest.

But it is also true to say that Boris is not as home and dry as he thinks he is. He now has to deliver on all those promises. He also has around 80 MPs who represent former Labour heartlands, where working class people feel disenfranchised precisely because of the broken structures I cite above. It is not in the Tory mindset to do the kinds of things that need to be done to fix some of those things. So for me, the thing to watch over the next five years, is how hard those 80 MPs work to try and move the direction of the Tory party to genuinely serve those constituents. Or will they not bother? Worth remembering that Boris is the PM who threw out MPs for defying the whip. This is dark territory. Also the noises being made about redressing the power balance between the courts, civil service, Parliament and the Executive are dark territory. There will be plenty for Labour to chew on in opposition, if they finally find the right leader, and a real chance for the Tory party to step into the center ground, if they choose to.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2019:12:16:08:03:15 by Blah Blah.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Loutwo 16 December, 2019 09:05

Excellent post Blah Blah. I think you’ve hit the nail on the head.

Louisa.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Captain Marvel 16 December, 2019 09:38

'if they choose to'

I think they do choose to (apologies for the paywall)

[www.thetimes.co.uk]

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Blah Blah 16 December, 2019 10:02

What they say they will do and what they actually do still remains to be seen Captain Marvel. One of the odd things about investment is how much of it finds its way into the coffers and share portfolios of big contractors too close to ministerial private interests, as opposed to being genuinely felt on the ground. Where is the investment for small business, education and the individual? Tory economic thinking tends to favour big business and grandiose infrastructure, over that start up some long term unemployed person with skills could get going in a declining region. Fifty thousand nurses may also sound great, but Blair increased public sector personnel by three million. Which figure do you think is the one where people really do see a difference in their local community? We all remember the Downing Street speeches where Thatcher quote St.Francis and May promised to help the poor. Neither delivered. Words are easy. Actions speak louder.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by diable rouge 16 December, 2019 10:17

Whooosh!...


dbboy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So what Corbyn preached wasn't even his own
> thoughts but from a 17th Century journalist, say's
> it all really!!!!!!
>
> diable rouge Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Oh FFS, pleaae make it stop, it's now The
> People's
> > Government
> > Another 3-word ditty, that's where Labour went
> > wrong, For the Many Not the Few was Dostoevsky
> > when they needed Jackie Collins...

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by diable rouge 16 December, 2019 10:23

Grove boy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> About as much as the millionaires behind Corbyn,
> John Lansmann and Len Mcklusky etc.

Congratulations, that has to be the 'best' false equivalence anyone on this forum has come up with...

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by JohnL 16 December, 2019 10:28

McDonnell excused himself and left real fast, Corbyn staying for "reflection" and the contenders line up as

favorite is Becky Long-Bailey (not Rebecca anymore it seems)
Angela Raynor
Lisa Nandy
Keir Starmer

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by JohnL 16 December, 2019 10:30

OKay a blast from the past, David Mellor was on Sky News this morning saying how Boris should get rid of Rees-Mogg as he keeps putting his foot in it.

I suppressed a little giggle remembering Mellor and feet.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2019:12:16:10:31:18 by JohnL.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Captain Marvel 16 December, 2019 10:35

'Blair increased public sector personnel by three million'

You say that like it's a good thing.

Anyway, it could be argued ad nauseam, I'm just suggesting that it looks like the intent is there, and that clearly not everybody sees demons when they look at the Conservatives.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Loutwo 16 December, 2019 10:39

Indeed blah blah, and perhaps this is why the Labour Party needs to get its act together ASAP if they are to successfully scrutinise what is in effect a landslide government.

Louisa.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by JohnL 16 December, 2019 10:47

Captain Marvel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 'Blair increased public sector personnel by three
> million'
>
> You say that like it's a good thing.
>
> Anyway, it could be argued ad nauseam, I'm just
> suggesting that it looks like the intent is there,
> and that clearly not everybody sees demons when
> they look at the Conservatives.

"The new MPs already have an extensive shopping list of demands they promised to voters during the campaign, including rail links to remote ports, new nuclear reactors and train stations."

“As a newly elected member for the north-west of England I am going to be fighting very, very hard to get funding here. We need rail infrastructure, we need road infrastructure,” Andy Carter, the new MP for Warrington South, told the BBC’s Sunday Politics North West show.

I can't see it happening - I might be wrong and we might about to be going on a spending spree - but taxes then must go up.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by stepdown 16 December, 2019 10:52

JohnL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I can't see it happening - I might be wrong and we
> might about to be going on a spending spree - but
> taxes then must go up.

Not when you use the "golden rule" that increased borrowing is fine for infrastructure.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by JohnL 16 December, 2019 11:03

stepdown Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> JohnL Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I can't see it happening - I might be wrong and
> we
> > might about to be going on a spending spree -
> but
> > taxes then must go up.
>
> Not when you use the "golden rule" that increased
> borrowing is fine for infrastructure.

Fair enough - If you can see the FT

"Chancellor Sajid Javid has wrapped the increased investment commitment into a new set of fiscal rules, which makes a clear distinction between investment and consumption spending. He has battled Treasury critics who do not share his understanding of the growth enhancing effects of public investment. "

and then further down a mention of EU trade

"the Johnson government may surprise everyone with its approach to trade. I believe Downing Street will seek an early trade deal with the EU based on “high alignment” in all goods sectors and most services"

[www.ft.com]

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by fishbiscuits 16 December, 2019 11:04

Agree with much of what blah says. We need a fairer society, a more progressive taxation policy, properly funded healthcare and welfare, a serious attempt at increasing the availability of affordable (and where necessary social) housing, a diversification of the economy, and a transfer of power/wealth away from London. And we need to ensure that every student who is willing and capable of higher education gets the opportunity.

This doesn't mean capitalism is a dirty word. Yes we do need to keep a check on it.. e.g. tech, finance, and energy like all industries, should be subject to appropriate regulation, and tax loopholes closed down.. but they needn't be viewed as enemies of the people. Let's not forget that the Nordics (which many of Corbyn's fans erroneously draw analogies with) are fundamentally capitalist countries too. I don't think you'd see Sweden borrowing a couple of hundred billion to fund a nationalisation programme...

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by JohnL 16 December, 2019 11:10

fishbiscuits Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> diversification of the economy, and a transfer of
> power/wealth away from London. And we need to

yet one of the first bit of news I heard after the election was the below

"An unnamed family bought a central London townhouse on Friday for £65m in the confidence that Boris Johnson had secured a landslide general election victory.

The deal is understood to be one of the most expensive ever transacted on the UK residential property market,"

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by fishbiscuits 16 December, 2019 11:16

JohnL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> yet one of the first bit of news I heard after the
> election was the below
>
> "An unnamed family bought a central London
> townhouse on Friday for £65m in the confidence
> that Boris Johnson had secured a landslide general
> election victory.
>
> The deal is understood to be one of the most
> expensive ever transacted on the UK residential
> property market,"

Going pretty well so far, then!

I believe Johnson is a big fan of these huge London apartment developments, marketed primarily to Asian and middle-eastern investors and often left empty. Expect more of the same once the currency settles.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by stepdown 16 December, 2019 11:17

JohnL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Chancellor Sajid Javid has wrapped the increased
> investment commitment into a new set of fiscal
> rules, which makes a clear distinction between
> investment and consumption spending.

I don't see that contradicts anything I said, but the fiscal rule I referenced is from 1997, it's not a new idea: [en.wikipedia.org])

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by dulwichbloke 16 December, 2019 11:40

cella Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Admin - think this thread with its title has
> served its purpose now? Now serving as a vehicle
> for the usual suspects to endlessly rant and spout
> rubbish retrospectively now the election is over.

As if you weren't spouting delusional rubbish BEFORE your (car crash) election?!

I appreciate you are probably a Momentum activist who is busy trying to hide from the obvious fact that 'real' people (as some on here have referred to them as) last week massively rejected Corbyn and the Labour party and their policies, but there is a bit of irony in that comment isn't there?

I'm getting a large sack of popcorn ready for the next couple of months of internecine blood-letting and finger pointing in the LP - could be good. I see Lady Thornbury is today starting a legal action against fellow Labour party member for suggesting she might look down on the working classes as being stupid. Lady T might find her problem is that she has already been busted posting a sneering picture online of White Van Man in Essex. That might dent her 'as if I would ever think like that' defence.

It's an entertaining start to the in-fighting though!

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by JohnL 16 December, 2019 11:54

stepdown Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> JohnL Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Chancellor Sajid Javid has wrapped the
> increased
> > investment commitment into a new set of fiscal
> > rules, which makes a clear distinction between
> > investment and consumption spending.
>
> I don't see that contradicts anything I said, but
> the fiscal rule I referenced is from 1997, it's
> not a new idea:
> [en.wikipedia.org]
> policy)

that's because I was agreeing with you smiling smiley

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by stepdown 16 December, 2019 11:55

JohnL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> that's because I was agreeing with you smiling smiley

I worried that might be the case! :D

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by malumbu 16 December, 2019 11:59

I was forced onto a chug chug train on Saturday, as having booked the tickets a mere five days in advance it was the only cheap option apart from one that stopped at every station from Northampton to Euston. It was like a bus.

Many of the lines were electrified in the late 60s when the Wilson Government in its White Heat Technology phase. Ironically much of this lead by Tony Benn as Minister of Technology at a time when we were forging ahead on developing and building the next generation of nuclear power stations.

Anyway sorry for the history lesson but my experience on Saturday shows the need to simplify, and preferably reduce prices, on our privatised rail network and as important electrify the whole bloody lot not the half assed attempt of recent governments.

Anyway I digress but relevant to the new government.

Here's some more of the history lesson

www.theguardian.com/science/political-science/2013/sep/19/harold-wilson-white-heat-technology-speech

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by JohnL 16 December, 2019 12:09

dulwichbloke Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I appreciate you are probably a Momentum activist

Unfortunately they probably call him a red tory - some divisions we have

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Seabag 16 December, 2019 13:48

JohnL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> McDonnell excused himself and left real fast,
> Corbyn staying for "reflection" and the contenders
> line up as
>
> favorite is Becky Long-Bailey (not Rebecca
> anymore it seems)
> Angela Raynor
> Lisa Nandy
> Keir Starmer

Starmer is the one with the gravitas required

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