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The Bishop, The EDT, The Great Exhibition, the Actress or another?
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messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by dulwichbloke 16 December, 2019 14:11

Sir Kier's problem is that it is being widely reported that he and Lady T were the main people who successfully pressured Corbyn into changing his obvious Leave preference to his absurd 'People's Vote'/neutrality position.

That attempt to play to a Metroplotan London audience who wanted to circumvent the largest democratic vote result the UK has ever had may have played well with those and others (living in their Metropolitan bubble - some of whom were ranting rabidly on this internet forum), but was a disaster with the 'real' voters outside London and Scotland.

Just as happened on this forum, those 'real' voters may be lambasted as merely being stupid and/or taken in, but the reality is they railed against attempts to treat their vote as meaningless and so Sir Keir played quite a role in the LP's destruction last week. The far left do have a point in this regard (although they control the party and went along with it).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2019:12:16:14:13:06 by dulwichbloke.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by seenbeen 16 December, 2019 14:12

Captain Marvel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 'Blair increased public sector personnel by three
> million'
>
> You say that like it's a good thing.
>
> Anyway, it could be argued ad nauseam, I'm just
> suggesting that it looks like the intent is there,
> and that clearly not everybody sees demons when
> they look at the Conservatives.

I remember all those Public Sector jobs...they were referred to as 'non-jobs'
Labour went for quantity, not quality
[www.solfed.org.uk]

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Seabag 16 December, 2019 14:21

dulwichbloke Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sir Kier's problem is that it is being widely
> reported that he and Lady T were the main people
> who successfully pressured Corbyn into changing
> his obvious Leave preference to his absurd
> 'People's Vote'/neutrality position.
>
> That attempt to play to a Metroplotan London
> audience who wanted to circumvent the largest
> democratic vote result the UK has ever had may
> have played well with those and others (living in
> their Metropolitan bubble - some of whom were
> ranting rabidly on this internet forum), but was a
> disaster with the 'real' voters outside London and
> Scotland.
>
> Just as happened on this forum, those 'real'
> voters may be lambasted as merely being stupid
> and/or taken in, but the reality is they railed
> against attempts to treat their vote as
> meaningless and so Sir Keir played quite a role in
> the LP's destruction last week. The far left do
> have a point in this regard (although they control
> the party and went along with it).

But be honest, who out of any of that group of people mentioned would be the face of the party when the next election comes?

None, quite possibly. The party is going to have to go through a series of contractions and conflicts, before it can settle and remotely become electable.

The next Ďelectableí person isnít going to show their position at this point.

Itís a temporary leader to take the crap thatís coming. KS is vain enough to give it a go.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by dulwichbloke 16 December, 2019 14:37

cella Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He [Corbyn] has huge personal support - just depends on who
> you rely on for your information and which press
> you choose.

...or (now) which General Election result you choose look at!

That's quite a good guide to whether someone has "huge personal support" in the real world.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by malumbu 16 December, 2019 14:52

So Corbyn and the Labour Party should have nailed their colours to their chest and supported Brexit without a referendum (difficult as they had already blocked a softish deal), to retain Workington and West Bromwich whilst confusing their Metropolitan elite in London, Leeds, Manchester and Liverpool.

Discuss.......

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by TheCat 16 December, 2019 15:04

malumbu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So Corbyn and the Labour Party should have nailed
> their colours to their chest and supported Brexit
> without a referendum (difficult as they had
> already blocked a softish deal), to retain
> Workington and West Bromwich whilst confusing
> their Metropolitan elite in London, Leeds,
> Manchester and Liverpool.
>
> Discuss.......

I'd love to. But some people have called on Admin for this thread too be shutdown now, as some of things being said are hurting their feelings......

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Seabag 16 December, 2019 15:07

I did call for it to be closed, as I feared it would turn into a slagging match, and thatís boring.

But itís evolving, which is good.

So, onwards.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by TheCat 16 December, 2019 15:09

malumbu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So Corbyn and the Labour Party should have nailed
> their colours to their chest and supported Brexit
> without a referendum (difficult as they had
> already blocked a softish deal), to retain
> Workington and West Bromwich whilst confusing
> their Metropolitan elite in London, Leeds,
> Manchester and Liverpool.
>
> Discuss.......

But jokes aside.....the key problem as I see it is the mechanism thatLabour has for electings it's leadership. They should make it a priority to revert back to MP's, rather than members, deciding on the leadership. This way there is at least some form of responsibility to the broader electorate, rather than to a niche cabal of members who exert a wholly un-representative influence over the party (as I think it's pretty hard to argue against after the events of last week).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2019:12:16:15:12:29 by TheCat.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by JohnL 16 December, 2019 15:20

malumbu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So Corbyn and the Labour Party should have nailed
> their colours to their chest and supported Brexit
> without a referendum (difficult as they had
> already blocked a softish deal), to retain
> Workington and West Bromwich whilst confusing
> their Metropolitan elite in London, Leeds,
> Manchester and Liverpool.
>
> Discuss.......

Seem to be three Labour factions fighting like ferrets in a bag - even though I can't see the point in Leave-Remain for Labour when they're out for 5 years.

Corbynite (Long Bailey, Angela Rayner) - some advocating Lavery here too
Centre Left "Leave" (Lisa Nandy, Kinnock)
Centre Left "Remain" (Keir Starmer, Emily Thornberry) - can add Jess Phillips here too - not sure she fits

Menwhile Thornberry going for Caroline Flint "People can slag me off, as long as it's true, I can take it on the chin. But they can't make up s*** about me"



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was 2019:12:16:15:58:40 by JohnL.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Sephiroth 16 December, 2019 15:20

Godammit Cat!!!


malumbu - that wouldn't have worked - as Labour lost more to Labour Remain voters Than Labour Leave voters. With Corbyn in charge after 4 years, Labour were never going to get elected

But the problems keep mounting for both parties - As Cat says, unless they change the way the leader is chosen then I can't see them getting out of this hole

As for the Tories - they have a load of Labour Leave voters on the promise a) they get it done and b) invest in their communities. It is possible to argue that Johnson will deliver on both of those - but not at the massive expense of many traditional Conservative voters who will be aghast at the massive borrowing required to facilitate

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by JohnL 16 December, 2019 15:24

Sephiroth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Godammit Cat!!!
>
> But the problems keep mounting for both parties -
> As Cat says, unless they change the way the leader
> is chosen then I can't see them getting out of
> this hole
>

Entryism is a real problem - Lib Dems on Twitter openly planning a raid on Tory or Labour parties (joining to vote for leader). Doubt they'd have the numbers though smiling smiley

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by malumbu 16 December, 2019 15:37

Did any of us, as Labour members, vote for him in the LP leadership election? Did anyone switch parties between 17 and 19. My Brother in Law, who is a leaver and wanted border controls, but not stupid (talking about intelligence rather than moral compass, did.

I've not heard any members admit to making a mistake. My only conversations so far are that it was all down to Brexit and not policies and leadership. It would be good to have some informed discussion.

As for me? I struggled to vote for Corbyn in '17 and ended up tossing a coin (he lost), but in '19 saw no alternative. I'm wondering why those who were so attracted to him must have fled - or perhaps Brexit didn't have the same relevance two years ago. And I expect that much of the attraction was more to do with how bad May was campaigning.

As for 'what went wrong' Poly Toynbee did an excellent analysis. A few quotes from this:

Given the worst choice in history, the public preferred him to his opponent. How bad did Labour have to be to let this sociopathic, narcissistic, glutton for power beat them? Thatís the soul-searching question every Labour member, office-holder and MP has to ask.

How bad did Labour have to be to let this sociopathic, narcissistic, glutton for power beat them?í Boris Johnson delivers a victory speech to Tory party members.

Labour was disastrously, catastrophically bad, an agony to behold. A coterie of Corbynites cared more about gripping power within the party than saving the country by winning the election. The national executive committee, a slate of nodding Corbynite place-persons, disgraced the party with its sectarian decisions. Once it was plain in every poll and focus group that Corbynism was electoral arsenic, they should have propelled him out, but electoral victory was secondary.

[www.theguardian.com]

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Sephiroth 16 December, 2019 15:42

I said at the time in 2017 that Corbyn and his supporters took all the wrong messages from that result - it was shortly after the referendum and many remainers were willing to believe he would fight for remain. By the time he begrudgingly came up with his "neutral" 2nd ref offer earlier this year he had aggrivated leavers and remainers alike

But more than that, we had an extra 2 years to assess him - and it was not good. Basically inept on most matters, his handling of anti-semitism saw many people simply unable to vote for him

Basically - he should have gone after 2017

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by JohnL 16 December, 2019 15:52

Sephiroth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I said at the time in 2017 that Corbyn and his
> supporters took all the wrong messages from that
> result - it was shortly after the referendum and
> many remainers were willing to believe he would
> fight for remain. By the time he begrudgingly came
> up with his "neutral" 2nd ref offer earlier this
> year he had aggrivated leavers and remainers
> alike
>
> But more than that, we had an extra 2 years to
> assess him - and it was not good. Basically inept
> on most matters, his handling of anti-semitism saw
> many people simply unable to vote for him
>
> Basically - he should have gone after 2017

Agreed - he also looked tired recently which didn't help. Seumas Milne and Karie Murphy seemed to be running a lot of the show.

I saw Tom Harwood even allege (falsely) Corbyn had suffered a minor stroke (due to some kind of glasses he wore)

[zelo-street.blogspot.com]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was 2019:12:16:15:59:43 by JohnL.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Captain Marvel 16 December, 2019 16:14

Quite how these discredited old dinosaurs think they have the right to impose the next leader from beyond the grave beggars belief. It's yet more hubris and delusion.

They don't want power, they just want the party. They've waited all their lives for that and they won't go down without it getting bloody

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by JohnL 16 December, 2019 16:58

Captain Marvel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Quite how these discredited old dinosaurs think
> they have the right to impose the next leader from
> beyond the grave beggars belief. It's yet more
> hubris and delusion.
>
> They don't want power, they just want the party.
> They've waited all their lives for that and they
> won't go down without it getting bloody

I just want someone who can communicate well and provide a decent level of intelligent opposition at the moment. Tories still need to be held to account as part of the democratic process. I'd love the star factor but Labour don't have that.

Brexit is settled for a while (trade deal not done yet but it won't be an election issue as it'll be resolved before then)

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Blah Blah 16 December, 2019 17:05

Captain Marvel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 'Blair increased public sector personnel by three
> million'
>
> You say that like it's a good thing.
>
> Anyway, it could be argued ad nauseam, I'm just
> suggesting that it looks like the intent is there,
> and that clearly not everybody sees demons when
> they look at the Conservatives.

Then maybe you would like to take a look at this afternoon's headline where No. 12 now says it no longer guarantees the worker and environmental protections it promised to guarantee to get Boris's deal through it's first reading. Still not buying the line of Turkey's voting for Christmas I suppose.

And on Blair, after 16 years of Thatcherite under investment that left our schools and hospitals crumbling, I would say those extra personnel absolutely were a good thing. The point is that 50k is a drop in the ocean in a population of 68 million. Any difference is unlikely to be felt with longer life expectancy and growing needs for adult social care.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Blah Blah 16 December, 2019 17:17

malumbu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Labour was disastrously, catastrophically bad, an
> agony to behold. A coterie of Corbynites cared
> more about gripping power within the party than
> saving the country by winning the election. The
> national executive committee, a slate of nodding
> Corbynite place-persons, disgraced the party with
> its sectarian decisions. Once it was plain in
> every poll and focus group that Corbynism was
> electoral arsenic, they should have propelled him
> out, but electoral victory was secondary.
>
> [www.theguardian.com]
> /13/jeremy-corbyn-labour-manifesto-antisemitism-br
> exit

I agree with this. I was a party member. The last three years have been more about changing the party structure, deselecting MPs, making sure the preferred left candidates are elected to governing bodies like the NEC. The whole this has been a power grab, engineered by Lansman and Momentum. These people do not reflect the wider electorate. They are fringe ideologues, born out of the militant movement of the 80s. The only question is how many elections do Labour have to lose, before they step aside.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by cella 16 December, 2019 17:47

Captain Marvel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 'Blair increased public sector personnel by three
> million'
>
> You say that like it's a good thing.
>
> Anyway, it could be argued ad nauseam, I'm just
> suggesting that it looks like the intent is there,
> and that clearly not everybody sees demons when
> they look at the Conservatives.


You say that like it's a good thing. Anyone looking at Johnson & co needs to take a hard look at themselves.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2019:12:16:17:53:43 by cella.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Captain Marvel 16 December, 2019 18:28

You seem slightly out of step with the majority celia. Or are we all stupid?

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Grove boy 16 December, 2019 18:51

diable rouge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Grove boy Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > About as much as the millionaires behind
> Corbyn,
> > John Lansmann and Len Mcklusky etc.
>
> Congratulations, that has to be the 'best' false
> equivalence anyone on this forum has come up
> with...

They are millionaires,there's nothing false about it.Typical leftie argument, their millionaires are worse than ours,their racists are worse than our racists,,,,,,,

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by cella 16 December, 2019 19:06

Captain Marvel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You seem slightly out of step with the majority
> celia. Or are we all stupid?

Not sure what's you base the first bit in and you may like to consider rephrasing the second bit?

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by cella 16 December, 2019 19:12

dulwichbloke Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> cella Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Admin - think this thread with its title has
> > served its purpose now? Now serving as a
> vehicle
> > for the usual suspects to endlessly rant and
> spout
> > rubbish retrospectively now the election is
> over.
>
> As if you weren't spouting delusional rubbish
> BEFORE your (car crash) election?!
>
> I appreciate you are probably a Momentum activist
> who is busy trying to hide from the obvious fact
> that 'real' people (as some on here have referred
> to them as) last week massively rejected Corbyn
> and the Labour party and their policies, but there
> is a bit of irony in that comment isn't there?
>
> I'm getting a large sack of popcorn ready for the
> next couple of months of internecine blood-letting
> and finger pointing in the LP - could be good. I
> see Lady Thornbury is today starting a legal
> action against fellow Labour party member for
> suggesting she might look down on the working
> classes as being stupid. Lady T might find her
> problem is that she has already been busted
> posting a sneering picture online of White Van Man
> in Essex. That might dent her 'as if I would ever
> think like that' defence.
>
> It's an entertaining start to the in-fighting
> though!


You are wrong on most points. Can see you have a need for a life outside these posts. Glad you appreciate what you think I am though - there was I thinking the opposite!

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by cella 16 December, 2019 19:15

dulwichbloke Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> cella Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > He has huge personal support - just depends on
> who
> > you rely on for your information and which
> press
> > you choose.
>
> ...or (now) which General Election result you
> choose look at!
>
> That's quite a good guide to whether someone has
> "huge personal support" in the real world.

Which bit is confusing you?

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by DulwichFox 16 December, 2019 19:19

Voting in the General Election has now closed.

If you haven't yet voted, you are too late.

Boris Johnson (Conservative) won a Landslide Victory.

Corbyn was destroyed and took our Labour Party down with him.

Jo Swinson Lib. Dem. leader lost her seat and resigned.
Corbyn needs to do the same.

The rest is History. Like the Labour Party.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Loutwo 16 December, 2019 19:41

Whereís David Milliband when you need him?

Louisa.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Rockets 16 December, 2019 20:34

We can but hope that David is waiting for the right moment......but he won't play his hand until the landscape within the Labour party has changed massively. Any moderate entering the fray will get wiped out with the current structure.

How Labour didn't elect him leader is beyond belief - it was the beginning of the downfall.

Corbyn peaked with 100,000 Islington'ites singing his name at Glastonbury - it has been steadily downhill from there. The fact his is still in the leader's seat after that humiliation and the fact the different factions are starting to take swings at each other is merely validating why a lot of people wouldn't/couldn't vote for him - the party is in complete disarray and I am not sure it is going to get fixed anytime soon.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Blah Blah 16 December, 2019 21:07

Neither main party is ever history DF. Politics is swings and roundabouts as you well know. And we have an electoral system that does not proportionately reflect how people vote either. Our Governments are consistently made from parties that got less than half the votes cast. Labour will come back eventually.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by diable rouge 16 December, 2019 22:25

Grove boy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> They are millionaires,there's nothing false about it.

I didn't say false, I said false equivalence, they're not the same thing.

Typical leftie argument, their millionaires are
> worse than ours,their racists are worse than our
> racists,,,,,,,

I'm not a 'leftie' as you put it. If you look at my posting history you will see I'm no fan of Corbyn and his cabal.
You've cited Len McCluskey as a Labour millionaire, I've no idea if he is but happy to take your word on the matter. As for a Tory millionaire I'll stick with Johnson. Now you're right that's it's not false to say they are both millionaires, but that ignores the context of what I wrote, that being a reply to our resident racist who said that Labour politicians ''don't know how REAL people live''. It's a false equivalence to say that just because they are both millionaires they both know how real people live, that's simply not the case.
A quick look at his bio tells me LM is the son of a painter and decorator, shop steward, union leader etc, who I'm guessing therefore has a pretty good understanding of how so called real people live and can empathise with them, whereas Johnson has had such a privileged life and is so out of touch with reality that he can't even look at the image of a 4yo boy lying on a hospital floor...

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Grove boy 17 December, 2019 00:49

diable rouge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Grove boy Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > They are millionaires,there's nothing false
> about it.
>
> I didn't say false, I said false equivalence,
> they're not the same thing.
>
> Typical leftie argument, their millionaires are
> > worse than ours,their racists are worse than
> our
> > racists,,,,,,,
>
> I'm not a 'leftie' as you put it. If you look at
> my posting history you will see I'm no fan of
> Corbyn and his cabal.
> You've cited Len McCluskey as a Labour
> millionaire, I've no idea if he is but happy to
> take your word on the matter. As for a Tory
> millionaire I'll stick with Johnson. Now you're
> right that's it's not false to say they are both
> millionaires, but that ignores the context of what
> I wrote, that being a reply to our resident racist
> who said that Labour politicians ''don't know how
> REAL people live''. It's a false equivalence to
> say that just because they are both millionaires
> they both know how real people live, that's simply
> not the case.
> A quick look at his bio tells me LM is the son of
> a painter and decorator, shop steward, union
> leader etc, who I'm guessing therefore has a
> pretty good understanding of how so called real
> people live and can empathise with them, whereas
> Johnson has had such a privileged life and is so
> out of touch with reality that he can't even look
> at the image of a 4yo boy lying on a hospital
> floor...
That's all well and good but the electorate put their trust in Boris and not a career protester that alienated his core and traditional support. Maggis was daughter of shopkeepers, was she in touch with reality?

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