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messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by JohnL 16 December, 2019 10:47

Captain Marvel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 'Blair increased public sector personnel by three
> million'
>
> You say that like it's a good thing.
>
> Anyway, it could be argued ad nauseam, I'm just
> suggesting that it looks like the intent is there,
> and that clearly not everybody sees demons when
> they look at the Conservatives.

"The new MPs already have an extensive shopping list of demands they promised to voters during the campaign, including rail links to remote ports, new nuclear reactors and train stations."

“As a newly elected member for the north-west of England I am going to be fighting very, very hard to get funding here. We need rail infrastructure, we need road infrastructure,” Andy Carter, the new MP for Warrington South, told the BBC’s Sunday Politics North West show.

I can't see it happening - I might be wrong and we might about to be going on a spending spree - but taxes then must go up.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by stepdown 16 December, 2019 10:52

JohnL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I can't see it happening - I might be wrong and we
> might about to be going on a spending spree - but
> taxes then must go up.

Not when you use the "golden rule" that increased borrowing is fine for infrastructure.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by JohnL 16 December, 2019 11:03

stepdown Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> JohnL Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I can't see it happening - I might be wrong and
> we
> > might about to be going on a spending spree -
> but
> > taxes then must go up.
>
> Not when you use the "golden rule" that increased
> borrowing is fine for infrastructure.

Fair enough - If you can see the FT

"Chancellor Sajid Javid has wrapped the increased investment commitment into a new set of fiscal rules, which makes a clear distinction between investment and consumption spending. He has battled Treasury critics who do not share his understanding of the growth enhancing effects of public investment. "

and then further down a mention of EU trade

"the Johnson government may surprise everyone with its approach to trade. I believe Downing Street will seek an early trade deal with the EU based on “high alignment” in all goods sectors and most services"

[www.ft.com]

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by fishbiscuits 16 December, 2019 11:04

Agree with much of what blah says. We need a fairer society, a more progressive taxation policy, properly funded healthcare and welfare, a serious attempt at increasing the availability of affordable (and where necessary social) housing, a diversification of the economy, and a transfer of power/wealth away from London. And we need to ensure that every student who is willing and capable of higher education gets the opportunity.

This doesn't mean capitalism is a dirty word. Yes we do need to keep a check on it.. e.g. tech, finance, and energy like all industries, should be subject to appropriate regulation, and tax loopholes closed down.. but they needn't be viewed as enemies of the people. Let's not forget that the Nordics (which many of Corbyn's fans erroneously draw analogies with) are fundamentally capitalist countries too. I don't think you'd see Sweden borrowing a couple of hundred billion to fund a nationalisation programme...

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by JohnL 16 December, 2019 11:10

fishbiscuits Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> diversification of the economy, and a transfer of
> power/wealth away from London. And we need to

yet one of the first bit of news I heard after the election was the below

"An unnamed family bought a central London townhouse on Friday for £65m in the confidence that Boris Johnson had secured a landslide general election victory.

The deal is understood to be one of the most expensive ever transacted on the UK residential property market,"

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by fishbiscuits 16 December, 2019 11:16

JohnL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> yet one of the first bit of news I heard after the
> election was the below
>
> "An unnamed family bought a central London
> townhouse on Friday for £65m in the confidence
> that Boris Johnson had secured a landslide general
> election victory.
>
> The deal is understood to be one of the most
> expensive ever transacted on the UK residential
> property market,"

Going pretty well so far, then!

I believe Johnson is a big fan of these huge London apartment developments, marketed primarily to Asian and middle-eastern investors and often left empty. Expect more of the same once the currency settles.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by stepdown 16 December, 2019 11:17

JohnL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Chancellor Sajid Javid has wrapped the increased
> investment commitment into a new set of fiscal
> rules, which makes a clear distinction between
> investment and consumption spending.

I don't see that contradicts anything I said, but the fiscal rule I referenced is from 1997, it's not a new idea: [en.wikipedia.org])

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by dulwichbloke 16 December, 2019 11:40

cella Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Admin - think this thread with its title has
> served its purpose now? Now serving as a vehicle
> for the usual suspects to endlessly rant and spout
> rubbish retrospectively now the election is over.

As if you weren't spouting delusional rubbish BEFORE your (car crash) election?!

I appreciate you are probably a Momentum activist who is busy trying to hide from the obvious fact that 'real' people (as some on here have referred to them as) last week massively rejected Corbyn and the Labour party and their policies, but there is a bit of irony in that comment isn't there?

I'm getting a large sack of popcorn ready for the next couple of months of internecine blood-letting and finger pointing in the LP - could be good. I see Lady Thornbury is today starting a legal action against fellow Labour party member for suggesting she might look down on the working classes as being stupid. Lady T might find her problem is that she has already been busted posting a sneering picture online of White Van Man in Essex. That might dent her 'as if I would ever think like that' defence.

It's an entertaining start to the in-fighting though!

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by JohnL 16 December, 2019 11:54

stepdown Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> JohnL Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Chancellor Sajid Javid has wrapped the
> increased
> > investment commitment into a new set of fiscal
> > rules, which makes a clear distinction between
> > investment and consumption spending.
>
> I don't see that contradicts anything I said, but
> the fiscal rule I referenced is from 1997, it's
> not a new idea:
> [en.wikipedia.org]
> policy)

that's because I was agreeing with you smiling smiley

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by stepdown 16 December, 2019 11:55

JohnL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> that's because I was agreeing with you smiling smiley

I worried that might be the case! :D

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by malumbu 16 December, 2019 11:59

I was forced onto a chug chug train on Saturday, as having booked the tickets a mere five days in advance it was the only cheap option apart from one that stopped at every station from Northampton to Euston. It was like a bus.

Many of the lines were electrified in the late 60s when the Wilson Government in its White Heat Technology phase. Ironically much of this lead by Tony Benn as Minister of Technology at a time when we were forging ahead on developing and building the next generation of nuclear power stations.

Anyway sorry for the history lesson but my experience on Saturday shows the need to simplify, and preferably reduce prices, on our privatised rail network and as important electrify the whole bloody lot not the half assed attempt of recent governments.

Anyway I digress but relevant to the new government.

Here's some more of the history lesson

www.theguardian.com/science/political-science/2013/sep/19/harold-wilson-white-heat-technology-speech

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by JohnL 16 December, 2019 12:09

dulwichbloke Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I appreciate you are probably a Momentum activist

Unfortunately they probably call him a red tory - some divisions we have

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Seabag 16 December, 2019 13:48

JohnL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> McDonnell excused himself and left real fast,
> Corbyn staying for "reflection" and the contenders
> line up as
>
> favorite is Becky Long-Bailey (not Rebecca
> anymore it seems)
> Angela Raynor
> Lisa Nandy
> Keir Starmer

Starmer is the one with the gravitas required

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by dulwichbloke 16 December, 2019 14:11

Sir Kier's problem is that it is being widely reported that he and Lady T were the main people who successfully pressured Corbyn into changing his obvious Leave preference to his absurd 'People's Vote'/neutrality position.

That attempt to play to a Metroplotan London audience who wanted to circumvent the largest democratic vote result the UK has ever had may have played well with those and others (living in their Metropolitan bubble - some of whom were ranting rabidly on this internet forum), but was a disaster with the 'real' voters outside London and Scotland.

Just as happened on this forum, those 'real' voters may be lambasted as merely being stupid and/or taken in, but the reality is they railed against attempts to treat their vote as meaningless and so Sir Keir played quite a role in the LP's destruction last week. The far left do have a point in this regard (although they control the party and went along with it).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2019:12:16:14:13:06 by dulwichbloke.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by seenbeen 16 December, 2019 14:12

Captain Marvel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 'Blair increased public sector personnel by three
> million'
>
> You say that like it's a good thing.
>
> Anyway, it could be argued ad nauseam, I'm just
> suggesting that it looks like the intent is there,
> and that clearly not everybody sees demons when
> they look at the Conservatives.

I remember all those Public Sector jobs...they were referred to as 'non-jobs'
Labour went for quantity, not quality
[www.solfed.org.uk]

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Seabag 16 December, 2019 14:21

dulwichbloke Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sir Kier's problem is that it is being widely
> reported that he and Lady T were the main people
> who successfully pressured Corbyn into changing
> his obvious Leave preference to his absurd
> 'People's Vote'/neutrality position.
>
> That attempt to play to a Metroplotan London
> audience who wanted to circumvent the largest
> democratic vote result the UK has ever had may
> have played well with those and others (living in
> their Metropolitan bubble - some of whom were
> ranting rabidly on this internet forum), but was a
> disaster with the 'real' voters outside London and
> Scotland.
>
> Just as happened on this forum, those 'real'
> voters may be lambasted as merely being stupid
> and/or taken in, but the reality is they railed
> against attempts to treat their vote as
> meaningless and so Sir Keir played quite a role in
> the LP's destruction last week. The far left do
> have a point in this regard (although they control
> the party and went along with it).

But be honest, who out of any of that group of people mentioned would be the face of the party when the next election comes?

None, quite possibly. The party is going to have to go through a series of contractions and conflicts, before it can settle and remotely become electable.

The next ‘electable’ person isn’t going to show their position at this point.

It’s a temporary leader to take the crap that’s coming. KS is vain enough to give it a go.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by dulwichbloke 16 December, 2019 14:37

cella Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He [Corbyn] has huge personal support - just depends on who
> you rely on for your information and which press
> you choose.

...or (now) which General Election result you choose look at!

That's quite a good guide to whether someone has "huge personal support" in the real world.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by malumbu 16 December, 2019 14:52

So Corbyn and the Labour Party should have nailed their colours to their chest and supported Brexit without a referendum (difficult as they had already blocked a softish deal), to retain Workington and West Bromwich whilst confusing their Metropolitan elite in London, Leeds, Manchester and Liverpool.

Discuss.......

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by TheCat 16 December, 2019 15:04

malumbu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So Corbyn and the Labour Party should have nailed
> their colours to their chest and supported Brexit
> without a referendum (difficult as they had
> already blocked a softish deal), to retain
> Workington and West Bromwich whilst confusing
> their Metropolitan elite in London, Leeds,
> Manchester and Liverpool.
>
> Discuss.......

I'd love to. But some people have called on Admin for this thread too be shutdown now, as some of things being said are hurting their feelings......

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Seabag 16 December, 2019 15:07

I did call for it to be closed, as I feared it would turn into a slagging match, and that’s boring.

But it’s evolving, which is good.

So, onwards.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by TheCat 16 December, 2019 15:09

malumbu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So Corbyn and the Labour Party should have nailed
> their colours to their chest and supported Brexit
> without a referendum (difficult as they had
> already blocked a softish deal), to retain
> Workington and West Bromwich whilst confusing
> their Metropolitan elite in London, Leeds,
> Manchester and Liverpool.
>
> Discuss.......

But jokes aside.....the key problem as I see it is the mechanism thatLabour has for electings it's leadership. They should make it a priority to revert back to MP's, rather than members, deciding on the leadership. This way there is at least some form of responsibility to the broader electorate, rather than to a niche cabal of members who exert a wholly un-representative influence over the party (as I think it's pretty hard to argue against after the events of last week).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2019:12:16:15:12:29 by TheCat.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by JohnL 16 December, 2019 15:20

malumbu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So Corbyn and the Labour Party should have nailed
> their colours to their chest and supported Brexit
> without a referendum (difficult as they had
> already blocked a softish deal), to retain
> Workington and West Bromwich whilst confusing
> their Metropolitan elite in London, Leeds,
> Manchester and Liverpool.
>
> Discuss.......

Seem to be three Labour factions fighting like ferrets in a bag - even though I can't see the point in Leave-Remain for Labour when they're out for 5 years.

Corbynite (Long Bailey, Angela Rayner) - some advocating Lavery here too
Centre Left "Leave" (Lisa Nandy, Kinnock)
Centre Left "Remain" (Keir Starmer, Emily Thornberry) - can add Jess Phillips here too - not sure she fits

Menwhile Thornberry going for Caroline Flint "People can slag me off, as long as it's true, I can take it on the chin. But they can't make up s*** about me"



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was 2019:12:16:15:58:40 by JohnL.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Sephiroth 16 December, 2019 15:20

Godammit Cat!!!


malumbu - that wouldn't have worked - as Labour lost more to Labour Remain voters Than Labour Leave voters. With Corbyn in charge after 4 years, Labour were never going to get elected

But the problems keep mounting for both parties - As Cat says, unless they change the way the leader is chosen then I can't see them getting out of this hole

As for the Tories - they have a load of Labour Leave voters on the promise a) they get it done and b) invest in their communities. It is possible to argue that Johnson will deliver on both of those - but not at the massive expense of many traditional Conservative voters who will be aghast at the massive borrowing required to facilitate

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by JohnL 16 December, 2019 15:24

Sephiroth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Godammit Cat!!!
>
> But the problems keep mounting for both parties -
> As Cat says, unless they change the way the leader
> is chosen then I can't see them getting out of
> this hole
>

Entryism is a real problem - Lib Dems on Twitter openly planning a raid on Tory or Labour parties (joining to vote for leader). Doubt they'd have the numbers though smiling smiley

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by malumbu 16 December, 2019 15:37

Did any of us, as Labour members, vote for him in the LP leadership election? Did anyone switch parties between 17 and 19. My Brother in Law, who is a leaver and wanted border controls, but not stupid (talking about intelligence rather than moral compass, did.

I've not heard any members admit to making a mistake. My only conversations so far are that it was all down to Brexit and not policies and leadership. It would be good to have some informed discussion.

As for me? I struggled to vote for Corbyn in '17 and ended up tossing a coin (he lost), but in '19 saw no alternative. I'm wondering why those who were so attracted to him must have fled - or perhaps Brexit didn't have the same relevance two years ago. And I expect that much of the attraction was more to do with how bad May was campaigning.

As for 'what went wrong' Poly Toynbee did an excellent analysis. A few quotes from this:

Given the worst choice in history, the public preferred him to his opponent. How bad did Labour have to be to let this sociopathic, narcissistic, glutton for power beat them? That’s the soul-searching question every Labour member, office-holder and MP has to ask.

How bad did Labour have to be to let this sociopathic, narcissistic, glutton for power beat them?’ Boris Johnson delivers a victory speech to Tory party members.

Labour was disastrously, catastrophically bad, an agony to behold. A coterie of Corbynites cared more about gripping power within the party than saving the country by winning the election. The national executive committee, a slate of nodding Corbynite place-persons, disgraced the party with its sectarian decisions. Once it was plain in every poll and focus group that Corbynism was electoral arsenic, they should have propelled him out, but electoral victory was secondary.

[www.theguardian.com]

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Sephiroth 16 December, 2019 15:42

I said at the time in 2017 that Corbyn and his supporters took all the wrong messages from that result - it was shortly after the referendum and many remainers were willing to believe he would fight for remain. By the time he begrudgingly came up with his "neutral" 2nd ref offer earlier this year he had aggrivated leavers and remainers alike

But more than that, we had an extra 2 years to assess him - and it was not good. Basically inept on most matters, his handling of anti-semitism saw many people simply unable to vote for him

Basically - he should have gone after 2017

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by JohnL 16 December, 2019 15:52

Sephiroth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I said at the time in 2017 that Corbyn and his
> supporters took all the wrong messages from that
> result - it was shortly after the referendum and
> many remainers were willing to believe he would
> fight for remain. By the time he begrudgingly came
> up with his "neutral" 2nd ref offer earlier this
> year he had aggrivated leavers and remainers
> alike
>
> But more than that, we had an extra 2 years to
> assess him - and it was not good. Basically inept
> on most matters, his handling of anti-semitism saw
> many people simply unable to vote for him
>
> Basically - he should have gone after 2017

Agreed - he also looked tired recently which didn't help. Seumas Milne and Karie Murphy seemed to be running a lot of the show.

I saw Tom Harwood even allege (falsely) Corbyn had suffered a minor stroke (due to some kind of glasses he wore)

[zelo-street.blogspot.com]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was 2019:12:16:15:59:43 by JohnL.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Captain Marvel 16 December, 2019 16:14

Quite how these discredited old dinosaurs think they have the right to impose the next leader from beyond the grave beggars belief. It's yet more hubris and delusion.

They don't want power, they just want the party. They've waited all their lives for that and they won't go down without it getting bloody

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by JohnL 16 December, 2019 16:58

Captain Marvel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Quite how these discredited old dinosaurs think
> they have the right to impose the next leader from
> beyond the grave beggars belief. It's yet more
> hubris and delusion.
>
> They don't want power, they just want the party.
> They've waited all their lives for that and they
> won't go down without it getting bloody

I just want someone who can communicate well and provide a decent level of intelligent opposition at the moment. Tories still need to be held to account as part of the democratic process. I'd love the star factor but Labour don't have that.

Brexit is settled for a while (trade deal not done yet but it won't be an election issue as it'll be resolved before then)

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Blah Blah 16 December, 2019 17:05

Captain Marvel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 'Blair increased public sector personnel by three
> million'
>
> You say that like it's a good thing.
>
> Anyway, it could be argued ad nauseam, I'm just
> suggesting that it looks like the intent is there,
> and that clearly not everybody sees demons when
> they look at the Conservatives.

Then maybe you would like to take a look at this afternoon's headline where No. 12 now says it no longer guarantees the worker and environmental protections it promised to guarantee to get Boris's deal through it's first reading. Still not buying the line of Turkey's voting for Christmas I suppose.

And on Blair, after 16 years of Thatcherite under investment that left our schools and hospitals crumbling, I would say those extra personnel absolutely were a good thing. The point is that 50k is a drop in the ocean in a population of 68 million. Any difference is unlikely to be felt with longer life expectancy and growing needs for adult social care.

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