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messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by JohnL 17 December, 2019 08:26

BBC News just now - So Mr Damian Green what can the one nation Tory party do for the people of the north.
Green: ... Educate them ...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2019:12:17:08:27:23 by JohnL.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by JohnL 17 December, 2019 08:30

Blah Blah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neither main party is ever history DF. Politics is
> swings and roundabouts as you well know. And we
> have an electoral system that does not
> proportionately reflect how people vote either.
> Our Governments are consistently made from parties
> that got less than half the votes cast. Labour
> will come back eventually.

Just remember the leadership era of IDS (the quiet man) and Michael Howard.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Hemingway 17 December, 2019 08:59

Blah Blah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think Louisa got closest to why the working
> classes have fragmented and didn't get behind
> Labour this time. Corbyn is a republican, but the
> working classes traditionally are not republicans,
> and nor are they interested in ideological
> arguments around radical politics. Corbyn and his
> stalwarts had become a parody of a student
> revolutionary movement. The manifesto was naive
> and failed completely to understand the underlying
> aspirational culture of the electorate.
>
> People don't want socialism. They want
> opportunity. Access to decent jobs, owning their
> own home, good education and healthcare, and so
> on. All things that a fairer form of capitalism
> can deliver through a mixed economy. When Labour
> makes that case, it wins elections. The next
> leader needs to be someone free of controversial
> baggage, who can make those arguments and win back
> working class support, while persuading the middle
> classes that a fairer society is a more harmonious
> one.
>
> What has gone wrong since the financial crash of
> 2008 (and let's remember that was a global crash
> that emanated from the USA), is that austerity
> policy, felt hardest by those on the ground, the
> poorest, has been exploited by the likes of Farage
> (and a xenophobic underbelly led by the far and
> alt right) who created bogeymen to deflect from
> the real culprits that have delivered this unfair
> system of capitalism, namely our own successive
> governments, that have stripped away upward social
> mobility. A good example of this is housing
> supply. The statistics around changing
> demographics, affordability, non replacement of
> sold off social homes, and failure to build enough
> new homes, have become thrown out for some
> nonsense about immigration. It's almost as though
> our own governments have had nothing to do with it
> through their own regressive policies! That is the
> cognitive dissonance at play here.
>
> Labour were right about quite a few things. We do
> live in a world that is being asset and profit
> stripped by a ridiculously small number of
> corporations and individuals and at a time where a
> growing global population is increasingly
> aspiration. These two things are going to clash at
> some point. And what government do to tax and
> regulation matters in addressing this. This will
> become an increasing area of discussion in the
> future. There is nothing that Boris offers in way
> of addressing any of this. And there is real
> concern that his Brexit means taking the UK into
> tax haven territory. Well tax havens increasingly
> use indirect taxation to fill the deficits lost
> through direct tax cuts. And the people most
> affected by that tax structure, are the poorest.
>
> But it is also true to say that Boris is not as
> home and dry as he thinks he is. He now has to
> deliver on all those promises. He also has around
> 80 MPs who represent former Labour heartlands,
> where working class people feel disenfranchised
> precisely because of the broken structures I cite
> above. It is not in the Tory mindset to do the
> kinds of things that need to be done to fix some
> of those things. So for me, the thing to watch
> over the next five years, is how hard those 80 MPs
> work to try and move the direction of the Tory
> party to genuinely serve those constituents. Or
> will they not bother? Worth remembering that Boris
> is the PM who threw out MPs for defying the whip.
> This is dark territory. Also the noises being made
> about redressing the power balance between the
> courts, civil service, Parliament and the
> Executive are dark territory. There will be plenty
> for Labour to chew on in opposition, if they
> finally find the right leader, and a real chance
> for the Tory party to step into the center ground,
> if they choose to.


It may come as a shock Blah but I agree with most of this. Those 50 new MPs are mainly from their constituencies, comprehensively educated, working class and include a fair few gay and the UKs first out muslim MP, which kind of puts a strain on the 'bigoted upper class Tories" shreiking, . I hope the Tories move to the centre ground, I think they will to some degree

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Townleygreen 17 December, 2019 11:17

I suppose they can, Hemigway, they mocved to the right to pinch Farage's votes, now they've got a big majority they can move back towards the centre. But we shall see. I am not hopeful.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by DulwichFox 17 December, 2019 11:25

Blah Blah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neither main party is ever history DF. Politics is
> swings and roundabouts as you well know. And we
> have an electoral system that does not
> proportionately reflect how people vote either.
> Our Governments are consistently made from parties
> that got less than half the votes cast.
Labour will come back eventually.

Not in my lifetime.

DulwichFox

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Seabag 17 December, 2019 11:35

DulwichFox Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Blah Blah Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Neither main party is ever history DF. Politics
> is
> > swings and roundabouts as you well know. And we
> > have an electoral system that does not
> > proportionately reflect how people vote either.
> > Our Governments are consistently made from
> parties
> > that got less than half the votes cast.
> Labour will come back eventually.
>
> Not in my lifetime.
>
> DulwichFox

You never know Foxter, you could live longer than you think. What with all these 40 fancy hospitals the Tories are building. The NHS is going to be perkier than youve ever seen.

Imagine what a grumpy dusty ol Fox youll be if you live to see another Labour government.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by JohnL 17 December, 2019 11:38

It's looking more and more like Long Bailey - just can't see her winning, she's not really inspiring.

Maybe she'll surprise me or grow into the role if she gets it.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by keano77 17 December, 2019 11:47

Worth a fiver on Yvette Cooper?

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by diable rouge 17 December, 2019 11:50

JohnL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's looking more and more like Long Bailey - just
> can't see her winning, she's not really
> inspiring.
>
> Maybe she'll surprise me or grow into the role if
> she gets it.

This is all reminding me of when Alex Ferguson retired, RLB is a Moyes hierarchical continuity replacement, and I only know too well how that ended. We're on replacement No. 4 at the time of writing...

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by JohnL 17 December, 2019 11:53

keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Worth a fiver on Yvette Cooper?

She's very forensic and could take someone apart on her day.

But wrong faction unless something happens with the membership.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Alan Medic 17 December, 2019 12:40

RLB reminds me of Thunderbirds for some reason. She has less charisma than Corbyn which is difficult.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by JohnL 17 December, 2019 12:50

diable rouge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> JohnL Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It's looking more and more like Long Bailey -
> just
> > can't see her winning, she's not really
> > inspiring.
> >
> > Maybe she'll surprise me or grow into the role
> if
> > she gets it.
>
> This is all reminding me of when Alex Ferguson
> retired, RLB is a Moyes hierarchical continuity
> replacement, and I only know too well how that
> ended. We're on replacement No. 4 at the time of
> writing...

Well at least Bailey hasn't managed Cardiff smiling smiley

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Alan Medic 17 December, 2019 13:30

What is the point of Johnson making a law to stop extending the transition period? Anyone?

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by keano77 17 December, 2019 14:14

Alan Medic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What is the point of Johnson making a law to stop
> extending the transition period? Anyone?

Probably because Barnier has been appointed as chief negotiator again.

The old algorithm on legs has probably already put in an order from Germany for hundreds of pallet loads of Staedtler highlighter pens so he and his team can waste the next 10 years colouring in paragraphs red, amber and green

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Blah Blah 17 December, 2019 14:17

He wants to put maximum pressure on the EU to agree a trade deal within the time frame. Because with that majority, he can repeal any law he makes as quickly as he sets it. The question is whether or not anyone believes Boris will really leave with no deal. He of all people knows the cost of doing that. So we shall see.

On the new leader of the LP. RLB has no presence and will fail just like Corbyn before her. She is the preferred choice of the outgoing leadership because she is one of them, and through her they can continue their real agenda of a longer term socialist revolution. Will she fire Milne for example and employ her own advisors? I bet she won't. And the deluded naval gazing will continue.

Personally I think the way back lies with someone like Lisa Nandy. She has been very impressive in debates, is excellent on detail and would grow in the role. Everyone might agree that Niccola Sturgeon was the best leader during the campaign, and the SNP gained by it. In my opinion, Nandy could be as good as Sturgeon given the chance. But whoever the party chooses, until they start to understand that more of the same in a different cloak is going to continue to fail, they are a lost party.

Worth taking a look at 'The Wilderness Years' on youtube for a reminder of how the Labour Party have been here before, and how hard it was for someone (Kinnock) to take on the rabid hard left and save it form itself.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by JohnL 17 December, 2019 16:03

Keir Starmer still the man to beat in this contest says Peston.


[www.itv.com]

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Alan Medic 17 December, 2019 16:57

Alan Medic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What is the point of Johnson making a law to stop
> extending the transition period? Anyone?

Am I being too cynical to think he may have helped someone make money with the fall in the pound it caused?

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by cella 17 December, 2019 19:57

JohnL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Keir Starmer still the man to beat in this contest
> says Peston.
>
>
> [www.itv.com]
> er-is-the-labour-leadership-candidate-to-beat-writ
> es-robert-peston/

Given the range Starmer would be good and a match for awful Johnson. Momentum will never support him though. There are two factions in the party, similar situation with the Tories, and it's very hard to see anything they can unite on at the moment, in particular a new Leader who can bring the factions together.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Loutwo 17 December, 2019 22:19

Momentum should be removed from controlling the Labour movement with immediate effect. Theyve not just damaged the Labour Party, theyve damaged our democracy, theyve hijacked it for their own ends and have facilitated a hard right government for the next five/ten years minimum. Its a shocking and deluded power grab which needs to come to an end. Corbyn was used as a figurehead radical for momentums own ends.

Louisa.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by cella 17 December, 2019 23:05

Well you can't just remove a major grassroots organisation affiliated to the party. It needs a dynamic leader with vision to review what just happened and then try to move the party onwards - granted, an undeniably difficult task.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by diable rouge 17 December, 2019 23:38

There is a way of defeating Momentum and that's by playing them at their own game. Since the main parties dropped their membership prices and made it easy to join and vote, entryism by extremes has become rife. Momentum started it in the Labour party with Corbyn, and with the Tories it's been ex-Ukippers, part of a 'blue wave'organised by Arron Banks and Leave.EU, to join up and try and deselect any Tory remain MPs.
Lou, nothing to stop moderates doing the same, if you're retired you can join Labour for 2.17/month and literally put your money where your mouth is and vote for the next leader. If enough people did this they would out vote Momentum's choice...

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Blah Blah 18 December, 2019 10:28

Agree with the above on membership. This is especially true of the Labour party where leadership contests are open OMOV systems for all members.

In my opinion, the real damage was done by allowing any Tom Dick and Harry to vote for just 3 in that first leadership election at which Corbyn was elected. And sadly, many moderates have terminated their memberships since. Everyone's fear is that the next leader is merely a puppet for the existing leadership. The level of denial from the Corbyn camp is deafening. To see Caludia Webb trying to suggest there were some good things to come out of the election on Newsnight last night typifies the problem.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by cella 18 December, 2019 11:32

The idea of "removing" or "defeating" a grass roots organisation, apart from some ultra right wing, offensive ones, smacks of dictatorship and intolerance surely. There are many good things that have come from Momentum and a new Leader has to find a way of blending the different views within the party without allowing one side to dominate. Like I said previously, no mean feat.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Loutwo 18 December, 2019 11:57

cella Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The idea of "removing" or "defeating" a grass
> roots organisation, apart from some ultra right
> wing, offensive ones, smacks of dictatorship and
> intolerance surely. There are many good things
> that have come from Momentum and a new Leader has
> to find a way of blending the different views
> within the party without allowing one side to
> dominate. Like I said previously, no mean feat.


Are you being serious? I hope not. Momentum, fronted by a private school educated millionaire, claiming to work for the common people, has in effect taken over control of Labour. If they want to fight a election on the same failed Corbyn ticket the electorate just emphatically rejected, perhaps they could setup their own political party? But no, they wont do that will they, because they love being a loud protest movement. They have no intention of wanting to gain power to change this country. Labour with Momentum is not electable, its a protest group, this has now been proven. Labour under Blair and Brown is what we need, or a new version of that, and that cannot be done whilst Momentum hold the reigns of power.

Momentum is NOT democracy, it is a dictatorship. One which is now damaging this countries opportunity for a progressive voice against a hard right government.

Louisa.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by nxjen 18 December, 2019 12:31

Agree

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by fishbiscuits 18 December, 2019 12:34

Dictatorship and intolerance? LOL!!!

But yeah the reality is that these people are going nowhere... they are paid-up members whose views are in the spirit of the old-school Labour socialist tradition. So their approval is probably going to be pivotal when it comes to appointing the next leader (you can't expect moderates to join up in droves and force the party to change course, the same way that the left did four years ago).

Keir Starmer knows this.. he's being very careful with the language he uses.. trying not to alienate momentum.. still presenting the party as a force for radical change. He knows that in order to achieve anything, he needs these guys on side.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by cella 18 December, 2019 14:18

Loutwo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> cella Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The idea of "removing" or "defeating" a grass
> > roots organisation, apart from some ultra right
> > wing, offensive ones, smacks of dictatorship
> and
> > intolerance surely. There are many good things
> > that have come from Momentum and a new Leader
> has
> > to find a way of blending the different views
> > within the party without allowing one side to
> > dominate. Like I said previously, no mean feat.
>
>
> Are you being serious? I hope not. Momentum,
> fronted by a private school educated millionaire,
> claiming to work for the common people, has in
> effect taken over control of Labour. If they want
> to fight a election on the same failed Corbyn
> ticket the electorate just emphatically rejected,
> perhaps they could setup their own political
> party? But no, they wont do that will they,
> because they love being a loud protest movement.
> They have no intention of wanting to gain power to
> change this country. Labour with Momentum is not
> electable, its a protest group, this has now been
> proven. Labour under Blair and Brown is what we
> need, or a new version of that, and that cannot be
> done whilst Momentum hold the reigns of power.
>
> Momentum is NOT democracy, it is a dictatorship.
> One which is now damaging this countries
> opportunity for a progressive voice against a hard
> right government.
>
> Louisa.
Disagree.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by cella 18 December, 2019 14:19

fishbiscuits Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dictatorship and intolerance? LOL!!!
>
> But yeah the reality is that these people are
> going nowhere... they are paid-up members whose
> views are in the spirit of the old-school Labour
> socialist tradition. So their approval is probably
> going to be pivotal when it comes to appointing
> the next leader (you can't expect moderates to
> join up in droves and force the party to change
> course, the same way that the left did four years
> ago).
>
> Keir Starmer knows this.. he's being very careful
> with the language he uses.. trying not to alienate
> momentum.. still presenting the party as a force
> for radical change. He knows that in order to
> achieve anything, he needs these guys on side.

Exactly what's needed if we can't have a new unencumbered face.

messageRe: Who to vote for?attachment
Posted by Spartacus 18 December, 2019 15:20





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2019:12:18:15:22:31 by Spartacus.

Attachments: downloadfile-3.bin (81.9KB)  
messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Grove boy 18 December, 2019 17:55

cella Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The idea of "removing" or "defeating" a grass
> roots organisation, apart from some ultra right
> wing, offensive ones, smacks of dictatorship and
> intolerance surely.

Hahahahaha. What's your views on Labours dictatorship and intolerance ?

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