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messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Blah Blah 16 December, 2019 17:17

malumbu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Labour was disastrously, catastrophically bad, an
> agony to behold. A coterie of Corbynites cared
> more about gripping power within the party than
> saving the country by winning the election. The
> national executive committee, a slate of nodding
> Corbynite place-persons, disgraced the party with
> its sectarian decisions. Once it was plain in
> every poll and focus group that Corbynism was
> electoral arsenic, they should have propelled him
> out, but electoral victory was secondary.
>
> [www.theguardian.com]
> /13/jeremy-corbyn-labour-manifesto-antisemitism-br
> exit

I agree with this. I was a party member. The last three years have been more about changing the party structure, deselecting MPs, making sure the preferred left candidates are elected to governing bodies like the NEC. The whole this has been a power grab, engineered by Lansman and Momentum. These people do not reflect the wider electorate. They are fringe ideologues, born out of the militant movement of the 80s. The only question is how many elections do Labour have to lose, before they step aside.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by cella 16 December, 2019 17:47

Captain Marvel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 'Blair increased public sector personnel by three
> million'
>
> You say that like it's a good thing.
>
> Anyway, it could be argued ad nauseam, I'm just
> suggesting that it looks like the intent is there,
> and that clearly not everybody sees demons when
> they look at the Conservatives.


You say that like it's a good thing. Anyone looking at Johnson & co needs to take a hard look at themselves.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2019:12:16:17:53:43 by cella.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Captain Marvel 16 December, 2019 18:28

You seem slightly out of step with the majority celia. Or are we all stupid?

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Grove boy 16 December, 2019 18:51

diable rouge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Grove boy Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > About as much as the millionaires behind
> Corbyn,
> > John Lansmann and Len Mcklusky etc.
>
> Congratulations, that has to be the 'best' false
> equivalence anyone on this forum has come up
> with...

They are millionaires,there's nothing false about it.Typical leftie argument, their millionaires are worse than ours,their racists are worse than our racists,,,,,,,

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by cella 16 December, 2019 19:06

Captain Marvel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You seem slightly out of step with the majority
> celia. Or are we all stupid?

Not sure what's you base the first bit in and you may like to consider rephrasing the second bit?

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by cella 16 December, 2019 19:12

dulwichbloke Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> cella Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Admin - think this thread with its title has
> > served its purpose now? Now serving as a
> vehicle
> > for the usual suspects to endlessly rant and
> spout
> > rubbish retrospectively now the election is
> over.
>
> As if you weren't spouting delusional rubbish
> BEFORE your (car crash) election?!
>
> I appreciate you are probably a Momentum activist
> who is busy trying to hide from the obvious fact
> that 'real' people (as some on here have referred
> to them as) last week massively rejected Corbyn
> and the Labour party and their policies, but there
> is a bit of irony in that comment isn't there?
>
> I'm getting a large sack of popcorn ready for the
> next couple of months of internecine blood-letting
> and finger pointing in the LP - could be good. I
> see Lady Thornbury is today starting a legal
> action against fellow Labour party member for
> suggesting she might look down on the working
> classes as being stupid. Lady T might find her
> problem is that she has already been busted
> posting a sneering picture online of White Van Man
> in Essex. That might dent her 'as if I would ever
> think like that' defence.
>
> It's an entertaining start to the in-fighting
> though!


You are wrong on most points. Can see you have a need for a life outside these posts. Glad you appreciate what you think I am though - there was I thinking the opposite!

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by cella 16 December, 2019 19:15

dulwichbloke Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> cella Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > He has huge personal support - just depends on
> who
> > you rely on for your information and which
> press
> > you choose.
>
> ...or (now) which General Election result you
> choose look at!
>
> That's quite a good guide to whether someone has
> "huge personal support" in the real world.

Which bit is confusing you?

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by DulwichFox 16 December, 2019 19:19

Voting in the General Election has now closed.

If you haven't yet voted, you are too late.

Boris Johnson (Conservative) won a Landslide Victory.

Corbyn was destroyed and took our Labour Party down with him.

Jo Swinson Lib. Dem. leader lost her seat and resigned.
Corbyn needs to do the same.

The rest is History. Like the Labour Party.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Loutwo 16 December, 2019 19:41

Where’s David Milliband when you need him?

Louisa.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Rockets 16 December, 2019 20:34

We can but hope that David is waiting for the right moment......but he won't play his hand until the landscape within the Labour party has changed massively. Any moderate entering the fray will get wiped out with the current structure.

How Labour didn't elect him leader is beyond belief - it was the beginning of the downfall.

Corbyn peaked with 100,000 Islington'ites singing his name at Glastonbury - it has been steadily downhill from there. The fact his is still in the leader's seat after that humiliation and the fact the different factions are starting to take swings at each other is merely validating why a lot of people wouldn't/couldn't vote for him - the party is in complete disarray and I am not sure it is going to get fixed anytime soon.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Blah Blah 16 December, 2019 21:07

Neither main party is ever history DF. Politics is swings and roundabouts as you well know. And we have an electoral system that does not proportionately reflect how people vote either. Our Governments are consistently made from parties that got less than half the votes cast. Labour will come back eventually.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by diable rouge 16 December, 2019 22:25

Grove boy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> They are millionaires,there's nothing false about it.

I didn't say false, I said false equivalence, they're not the same thing.

Typical leftie argument, their millionaires are
> worse than ours,their racists are worse than our
> racists,,,,,,,

I'm not a 'leftie' as you put it. If you look at my posting history you will see I'm no fan of Corbyn and his cabal.
You've cited Len McCluskey as a Labour millionaire, I've no idea if he is but happy to take your word on the matter. As for a Tory millionaire I'll stick with Johnson. Now you're right that's it's not false to say they are both millionaires, but that ignores the context of what I wrote, that being a reply to our resident racist who said that Labour politicians ''don't know how REAL people live''. It's a false equivalence to say that just because they are both millionaires they both know how real people live, that's simply not the case.
A quick look at his bio tells me LM is the son of a painter and decorator, shop steward, union leader etc, who I'm guessing therefore has a pretty good understanding of how so called real people live and can empathise with them, whereas Johnson has had such a privileged life and is so out of touch with reality that he can't even look at the image of a 4yo boy lying on a hospital floor...

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Grove boy 17 December, 2019 00:49

diable rouge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Grove boy Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > They are millionaires,there's nothing false
> about it.
>
> I didn't say false, I said false equivalence,
> they're not the same thing.
>
> Typical leftie argument, their millionaires are
> > worse than ours,their racists are worse than
> our
> > racists,,,,,,,
>
> I'm not a 'leftie' as you put it. If you look at
> my posting history you will see I'm no fan of
> Corbyn and his cabal.
> You've cited Len McCluskey as a Labour
> millionaire, I've no idea if he is but happy to
> take your word on the matter. As for a Tory
> millionaire I'll stick with Johnson. Now you're
> right that's it's not false to say they are both
> millionaires, but that ignores the context of what
> I wrote, that being a reply to our resident racist
> who said that Labour politicians ''don't know how
> REAL people live''. It's a false equivalence to
> say that just because they are both millionaires
> they both know how real people live, that's simply
> not the case.
> A quick look at his bio tells me LM is the son of
> a painter and decorator, shop steward, union
> leader etc, who I'm guessing therefore has a
> pretty good understanding of how so called real
> people live and can empathise with them, whereas
> Johnson has had such a privileged life and is so
> out of touch with reality that he can't even look
> at the image of a 4yo boy lying on a hospital
> floor...
That's all well and good but the electorate put their trust in Boris and not a career protester that alienated his core and traditional support. Maggis was daughter of shopkeepers, was she in touch with reality?

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by JohnL 17 December, 2019 08:26

BBC News just now - So Mr Damian Green what can the one nation Tory party do for the people of the north.
Green: ... Educate them ...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2019:12:17:08:27:23 by JohnL.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by JohnL 17 December, 2019 08:30

Blah Blah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neither main party is ever history DF. Politics is
> swings and roundabouts as you well know. And we
> have an electoral system that does not
> proportionately reflect how people vote either.
> Our Governments are consistently made from parties
> that got less than half the votes cast. Labour
> will come back eventually.

Just remember the leadership era of IDS (the quiet man) and Michael Howard.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Hemingway 17 December, 2019 08:59

Blah Blah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think Louisa got closest to why the working
> classes have fragmented and didn't get behind
> Labour this time. Corbyn is a republican, but the
> working classes traditionally are not republicans,
> and nor are they interested in ideological
> arguments around radical politics. Corbyn and his
> stalwarts had become a parody of a student
> revolutionary movement. The manifesto was naive
> and failed completely to understand the underlying
> aspirational culture of the electorate.
>
> People don't want socialism. They want
> opportunity. Access to decent jobs, owning their
> own home, good education and healthcare, and so
> on. All things that a fairer form of capitalism
> can deliver through a mixed economy. When Labour
> makes that case, it wins elections. The next
> leader needs to be someone free of controversial
> baggage, who can make those arguments and win back
> working class support, while persuading the middle
> classes that a fairer society is a more harmonious
> one.
>
> What has gone wrong since the financial crash of
> 2008 (and let's remember that was a global crash
> that emanated from the USA), is that austerity
> policy, felt hardest by those on the ground, the
> poorest, has been exploited by the likes of Farage
> (and a xenophobic underbelly led by the far and
> alt right) who created bogeymen to deflect from
> the real culprits that have delivered this unfair
> system of capitalism, namely our own successive
> governments, that have stripped away upward social
> mobility. A good example of this is housing
> supply. The statistics around changing
> demographics, affordability, non replacement of
> sold off social homes, and failure to build enough
> new homes, have become thrown out for some
> nonsense about immigration. It's almost as though
> our own governments have had nothing to do with it
> through their own regressive policies! That is the
> cognitive dissonance at play here.
>
> Labour were right about quite a few things. We do
> live in a world that is being asset and profit
> stripped by a ridiculously small number of
> corporations and individuals and at a time where a
> growing global population is increasingly
> aspiration. These two things are going to clash at
> some point. And what government do to tax and
> regulation matters in addressing this. This will
> become an increasing area of discussion in the
> future. There is nothing that Boris offers in way
> of addressing any of this. And there is real
> concern that his Brexit means taking the UK into
> tax haven territory. Well tax havens increasingly
> use indirect taxation to fill the deficits lost
> through direct tax cuts. And the people most
> affected by that tax structure, are the poorest.
>
> But it is also true to say that Boris is not as
> home and dry as he thinks he is. He now has to
> deliver on all those promises. He also has around
> 80 MPs who represent former Labour heartlands,
> where working class people feel disenfranchised
> precisely because of the broken structures I cite
> above. It is not in the Tory mindset to do the
> kinds of things that need to be done to fix some
> of those things. So for me, the thing to watch
> over the next five years, is how hard those 80 MPs
> work to try and move the direction of the Tory
> party to genuinely serve those constituents. Or
> will they not bother? Worth remembering that Boris
> is the PM who threw out MPs for defying the whip.
> This is dark territory. Also the noises being made
> about redressing the power balance between the
> courts, civil service, Parliament and the
> Executive are dark territory. There will be plenty
> for Labour to chew on in opposition, if they
> finally find the right leader, and a real chance
> for the Tory party to step into the center ground,
> if they choose to.


It may come as a shock Blah but I agree with most of this. Those 50 new MPs are mainly from their constituencies, comprehensively educated, working class and include a fair few gay and the UKs first out muslim MP, which kind of puts a strain on the 'bigoted upper class Tories" shreiking, . I hope the Tories move to the centre ground, I think they will to some degree

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Townleygreen 17 December, 2019 11:17

I suppose they can, Hemigway, they mocved to the right to pinch Farage's votes, now they've got a big majority they can move back towards the centre. But we shall see. I am not hopeful.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by DulwichFox 17 December, 2019 11:25

Blah Blah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Neither main party is ever history DF. Politics is
> swings and roundabouts as you well know. And we
> have an electoral system that does not
> proportionately reflect how people vote either.
> Our Governments are consistently made from parties
> that got less than half the votes cast.
Labour will come back eventually.

Not in my lifetime.

DulwichFox

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Seabag 17 December, 2019 11:35

DulwichFox Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Blah Blah Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Neither main party is ever history DF. Politics
> is
> > swings and roundabouts as you well know. And we
> > have an electoral system that does not
> > proportionately reflect how people vote either.
> > Our Governments are consistently made from
> parties
> > that got less than half the votes cast.
> Labour will come back eventually.
>
> Not in my lifetime.
>
> DulwichFox

You never know Foxter, you could live longer than you think. What with all these 40 fancy hospitals the Tories are building. The NHS is going to be perkier than you’ve ever seen.

Imagine what a grumpy dusty ol’ Fox you’ll be if you live to see another Labour government.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by JohnL 17 December, 2019 11:38

It's looking more and more like Long Bailey - just can't see her winning, she's not really inspiring.

Maybe she'll surprise me or grow into the role if she gets it.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by keano77 17 December, 2019 11:47

Worth a fiver on Yvette Cooper?

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by diable rouge 17 December, 2019 11:50

JohnL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's looking more and more like Long Bailey - just
> can't see her winning, she's not really
> inspiring.
>
> Maybe she'll surprise me or grow into the role if
> she gets it.

This is all reminding me of when Alex Ferguson retired, RLB is a Moyes hierarchical continuity replacement, and I only know too well how that ended. We're on replacement No. 4 at the time of writing...

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by JohnL 17 December, 2019 11:53

keano77 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Worth a fiver on Yvette Cooper?

She's very forensic and could take someone apart on her day.

But wrong faction unless something happens with the membership.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Alan Medic 17 December, 2019 12:40

RLB reminds me of Thunderbirds for some reason. She has less charisma than Corbyn which is difficult.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by JohnL 17 December, 2019 12:50

diable rouge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> JohnL Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It's looking more and more like Long Bailey -
> just
> > can't see her winning, she's not really
> > inspiring.
> >
> > Maybe she'll surprise me or grow into the role
> if
> > she gets it.
>
> This is all reminding me of when Alex Ferguson
> retired, RLB is a Moyes hierarchical continuity
> replacement, and I only know too well how that
> ended. We're on replacement No. 4 at the time of
> writing...

Well at least Bailey hasn't managed Cardiff smiling smiley

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Alan Medic 17 December, 2019 13:30

What is the point of Johnson making a law to stop extending the transition period? Anyone?

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by keano77 17 December, 2019 14:14

Alan Medic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What is the point of Johnson making a law to stop
> extending the transition period? Anyone?

Probably because Barnier has been appointed as chief negotiator again.

The old algorithm on legs has probably already put in an order from Germany for hundreds of pallet loads of Staedtler highlighter pens so he and his team can waste the next 10 years colouring in paragraphs red, amber and green

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Blah Blah 17 December, 2019 14:17

He wants to put maximum pressure on the EU to agree a trade deal within the time frame. Because with that majority, he can repeal any law he makes as quickly as he sets it. The question is whether or not anyone believes Boris will really leave with no deal. He of all people knows the cost of doing that. So we shall see.

On the new leader of the LP. RLB has no presence and will fail just like Corbyn before her. She is the preferred choice of the outgoing leadership because she is one of them, and through her they can continue their real agenda of a longer term socialist revolution. Will she fire Milne for example and employ her own advisors? I bet she won't. And the deluded naval gazing will continue.

Personally I think the way back lies with someone like Lisa Nandy. She has been very impressive in debates, is excellent on detail and would grow in the role. Everyone might agree that Niccola Sturgeon was the best leader during the campaign, and the SNP gained by it. In my opinion, Nandy could be as good as Sturgeon given the chance. But whoever the party chooses, until they start to understand that more of the same in a different cloak is going to continue to fail, they are a lost party.

Worth taking a look at 'The Wilderness Years' on youtube for a reminder of how the Labour Party have been here before, and how hard it was for someone (Kinnock) to take on the rabid hard left and save it form itself.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by JohnL 17 December, 2019 16:03

Keir Starmer still the man to beat in this contest says Peston.


[www.itv.com]

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Alan Medic 17 December, 2019 16:57

Alan Medic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What is the point of Johnson making a law to stop
> extending the transition period? Anyone?

Am I being too cynical to think he may have helped someone make money with the fall in the pound it caused?

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