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messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by cella 17 December, 2019 19:57

JohnL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Keir Starmer still the man to beat in this contest
> says Peston.
>
>
> [www.itv.com]
> er-is-the-labour-leadership-candidate-to-beat-writ
> es-robert-peston/

Given the range Starmer would be good and a match for awful Johnson. Momentum will never support him though. There are two factions in the party, similar situation with the Tories, and it's very hard to see anything they can unite on at the moment, in particular a new Leader who can bring the factions together.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Loutwo 17 December, 2019 22:19

Momentum should be removed from controlling the Labour movement with immediate effect. They’ve not just damaged the Labour Party, they’ve damaged our democracy, they’ve hijacked it for their own ends and have facilitated a hard right government for the next five/ten years minimum. It’s a shocking and deluded power grab which needs to come to an end. Corbyn was used as a figurehead radical for momentum’s own ends.

Louisa.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by cella 17 December, 2019 23:05

Well you can't just remove a major grassroots organisation affiliated to the party. It needs a dynamic leader with vision to review what just happened and then try to move the party onwards - granted, an undeniably difficult task.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by diable rouge 17 December, 2019 23:38

There is a way of defeating Momentum and that's by playing them at their own game. Since the main parties dropped their membership prices and made it easy to join and vote, entryism by extremes has become rife. Momentum started it in the Labour party with Corbyn, and with the Tories it's been ex-Ukippers, part of a 'blue wave'organised by Arron Banks and Leave.EU, to join up and try and deselect any Tory remain MPs.
Lou, nothing to stop moderates doing the same, if you're retired you can join Labour for £2.17/month and literally put your money where your mouth is and vote for the next leader. If enough people did this they would out vote Momentum's choice...

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Blah Blah 18 December, 2019 10:28

Agree with the above on membership. This is especially true of the Labour party where leadership contests are open OMOV systems for all members.

In my opinion, the real damage was done by allowing any Tom Dick and Harry to vote for just £3 in that first leadership election at which Corbyn was elected. And sadly, many moderates have terminated their memberships since. Everyone's fear is that the next leader is merely a puppet for the existing leadership. The level of denial from the Corbyn camp is deafening. To see Caludia Webb trying to suggest there were some good things to come out of the election on Newsnight last night typifies the problem.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by cella 18 December, 2019 11:32

The idea of "removing" or "defeating" a grass roots organisation, apart from some ultra right wing, offensive ones, smacks of dictatorship and intolerance surely. There are many good things that have come from Momentum and a new Leader has to find a way of blending the different views within the party without allowing one side to dominate. Like I said previously, no mean feat.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Loutwo 18 December, 2019 11:57

cella Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The idea of "removing" or "defeating" a grass
> roots organisation, apart from some ultra right
> wing, offensive ones, smacks of dictatorship and
> intolerance surely. There are many good things
> that have come from Momentum and a new Leader has
> to find a way of blending the different views
> within the party without allowing one side to
> dominate. Like I said previously, no mean feat.


Are you being serious? I hope not. Momentum, fronted by a private school educated millionaire, claiming to work for the common people, has in effect taken over control of Labour. If they want to fight a election on the same failed Corbyn ticket the electorate just emphatically rejected, perhaps they could setup their own political party? But no, they won’t do that will they, because they love being a loud protest movement. They have no intention of wanting to gain power to change this country. Labour with Momentum is not electable, it’s a protest group, this has now been proven. Labour under Blair and Brown is what we need, or a new version of that, and that cannot be done whilst Momentum hold the reigns of power.

Momentum is NOT democracy, it is a dictatorship. One which is now damaging this countries opportunity for a progressive voice against a hard right government.

Louisa.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by nxjen 18 December, 2019 12:31

Agree

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by fishbiscuits 18 December, 2019 12:34

Dictatorship and intolerance? LOL!!!

But yeah the reality is that these people are going nowhere... they are paid-up members whose views are in the spirit of the old-school Labour socialist tradition. So their approval is probably going to be pivotal when it comes to appointing the next leader (you can't expect moderates to join up in droves and force the party to change course, the same way that the left did four years ago).

Keir Starmer knows this.. he's being very careful with the language he uses.. trying not to alienate momentum.. still presenting the party as a force for radical change. He knows that in order to achieve anything, he needs these guys on side.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by cella 18 December, 2019 14:18

Loutwo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> cella Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The idea of "removing" or "defeating" a grass
> > roots organisation, apart from some ultra right
> > wing, offensive ones, smacks of dictatorship
> and
> > intolerance surely. There are many good things
> > that have come from Momentum and a new Leader
> has
> > to find a way of blending the different views
> > within the party without allowing one side to
> > dominate. Like I said previously, no mean feat.
>
>
> Are you being serious? I hope not. Momentum,
> fronted by a private school educated millionaire,
> claiming to work for the common people, has in
> effect taken over control of Labour. If they want
> to fight a election on the same failed Corbyn
> ticket the electorate just emphatically rejected,
> perhaps they could setup their own political
> party? But no, they won’t do that will they,
> because they love being a loud protest movement.
> They have no intention of wanting to gain power to
> change this country. Labour with Momentum is not
> electable, it’s a protest group, this has now been
> proven. Labour under Blair and Brown is what we
> need, or a new version of that, and that cannot be
> done whilst Momentum hold the reigns of power.
>
> Momentum is NOT democracy, it is a dictatorship.
> One which is now damaging this countries
> opportunity for a progressive voice against a hard
> right government.
>
> Louisa.
Disagree.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by cella 18 December, 2019 14:19

fishbiscuits Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dictatorship and intolerance? LOL!!!
>
> But yeah the reality is that these people are
> going nowhere... they are paid-up members whose
> views are in the spirit of the old-school Labour
> socialist tradition. So their approval is probably
> going to be pivotal when it comes to appointing
> the next leader (you can't expect moderates to
> join up in droves and force the party to change
> course, the same way that the left did four years
> ago).
>
> Keir Starmer knows this.. he's being very careful
> with the language he uses.. trying not to alienate
> momentum.. still presenting the party as a force
> for radical change. He knows that in order to
> achieve anything, he needs these guys on side.

Exactly what's needed if we can't have a new unencumbered face.

messageRe: Who to vote for?attachment
Posted by Spartacus 18 December, 2019 15:20





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2019:12:18:15:22:31 by Spartacus.

Attachments: downloadfile-3.bin (81.9KB)  
messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Grove boy 18 December, 2019 17:55

cella Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The idea of "removing" or "defeating" a grass
> roots organisation, apart from some ultra right
> wing, offensive ones, smacks of dictatorship and
> intolerance surely.

Hahahahaha. What's your views on Labours dictatorship and intolerance ?

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Blah Blah 18 December, 2019 18:06

What's your view on a party expelling 21 MPs for having a different view to the leader Grove Boy? Ever heard of glass houses and stones?

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by fishbiscuits 18 December, 2019 18:28

cella Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Exactly what's needed if we can't have a new unencumbered face.

Well.. it's pragmatic. In fact it's probably the only solution. Try to keep the majority of members on side, and gradually, gently steer the party back from the brink towards a more mainstream direction...

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Grove boy 18 December, 2019 20:24

Blah Blah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What's your view on a party expelling 21 MPs for
> having a different view to the leader Grove Boy?
> Ever heard of glass houses and stones?

We are talking about labour here, what has that got to do with labours demolition? You can counter claim all day long but it doesn't absolve nor solve labours failings.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by SpringTime 18 December, 2019 20:33

fishbiscuits Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> cella Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Exactly what's needed if we can't have a new
> unencumbered face.
>
> Well.. it's pragmatic. In fact it's probably the
> only solution. Try to keep the majority of members
> on side, and gradually, gently steer the party
> back from the brink towards a more mainstream
> direction...

Sounds nice and familiar to me, but isn't it the centre that's eventually worn itself out and lost?

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by diable rouge 18 December, 2019 20:44

Grove boy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> We are talking about labour here, what has that
> got to do with labours demolition? You can counter
> claim all day long but it doesn't absolve nor
> solve labours failings.


What was that you were saying about counter claims?...


diable rouge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And WTF does Johnson and all the other
> millionaires in the Tory party know about REAL
> lives? Keep doffing your cap and tugging your
> forelock to your masters...


Grove boy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> About as much as the millionaires behind Corbyn,
> John Lansmann and Len Mcklusky etc.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Grove boy 18 December, 2019 21:55

diable rouge Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Grove boy Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > We are talking about labour here, what has that
> > got to do with labours demolition? You can
> counter
> > claim all day long but it doesn't absolve nor
> > solve labours failings.
>
>
> What was that you were saying about counter
> claims?...
>
>
> diable rouge Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > And WTF does Johnson and all the other
> > millionaires in the Tory party know about REAL
> > lives? Keep doffing your cap and tugging your
> > forelock to your masters...
>
>
> Grove boy Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > About as much as the millionaires behind
> Corbyn,
> > John Lansmann and Len Mcklusky etc.

That is a fact not a counter claim

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Blah Blah 19 December, 2019 01:01

And so is Johnson kicking 21 MPs out of his party for disagreeing with him a fact, so drop the counter claim games Grove Boy, before someone calls you a hypocrite ;)

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by JohnL 19 December, 2019 10:14

cella Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The idea of "removing" or "defeating" a grass
> roots organisation, apart from some ultra right
> wing, offensive ones, smacks of dictatorship and
> intolerance surely. There are many good things
> that have come from Momentum and a new Leader has
> to find a way of blending the different views
> within the party without allowing one side to
> dominate. Like I said previously, no mean feat.

There is an argument that MP's should elect their leader in the house they are in as used to happen (won't happen now without major change though).

We're moving towards a Presidential system (I heard the line on the BBC "Boris's motorcade was booed" and then the party members get to vote for the presidential candidate whilst the house and senate are voted for by members of each house.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Seabag 19 December, 2019 10:36

Boris loves a peerage for his cronies. I guess he’s going to need them for the next few years on the rocky roads to Brexit nirvana.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by dulwichbloke 19 December, 2019 12:17

Captain Marvel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You seem slightly out of step with the majority
> celia. Or are we all stupid?

Not just out of step, but also plainly in denial, like so many others in the hard left.

That's what makes it so entertaining at the moment!

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Grove boy 19 December, 2019 12:30

Indeed it is, but we/they won the arguement,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by dulwichbloke 19 December, 2019 12:47

Ha Ha! Yes! In their own minds, or their echo chamber, at least.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Grove boy 19 December, 2019 12:55

Blah Blah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And so is Johnson kicking 21 MPs out of his party
> for disagreeing with him a fact, so drop the
> counter claim games Grove Boy, before someone
> calls you a hypocrite ;)


That would be a shock, a corbyn cultist name calling. That's all his crowd of middle class brats have done, point the finger,deflect any criticism onto the tories and scream racist at people, look where it got you. The tories had a plan whilst labour pointed out how naughty they thought the tories were, you are doing it now. The tories done it first argument is weak and it doesn't mean it was okay for labour to follow suit, student id politics at it's worst. God help anyone that disagree's with saint Corbyn and his cronies.


[www.theargus.co.uk]

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by JohnL 19 December, 2019 13:34

New law meaning those implementing disruption by a foreign power can be jailed incoming.

Attempt to arrest remainers as being agents of the EU or genuine attempt to get Russian agents ?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2019:12:19:13:46:01 by JohnL.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by fishbiscuits 19 December, 2019 14:04

SpringTime Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> fishbiscuits Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Well.. it's pragmatic. In fact it's probably the
> > only solution. Try to keep the majority of members
> > on side, and gradually, gently steer the party
> > back from the brink towards a more mainstream
> > direction...
>
> Sounds nice and familiar to me, but isn't it the
> centre that's eventually worn itself out and lost?

I think you misunderstand. Starmer is not going to run as a centrist... more as a unifying force between the left fringes and the centre-left.

Recent events have also had me wondering whether there's even a place for liberal centrism in modern British politics, but I think there still is... unfortunately we don't tend to shout as loud as the nationalist right or the dogmatic left, and the FPTP two party system tends to leave us out in the cold. Labour have turned their back on centrism, and the lib dems have been tragically short of new ideas or inspirational leadership. But maybe our day will come...

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by diable rouge 19 December, 2019 14:09

Grove boy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> That would be a shock, a corbyn cultist name
> calling. That's all his crowd of middle class
> brats have done

Not only a hypocrite but a total lack of self-awareness...smiling smiley

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by uncleglen 19 December, 2019 14:25

Loutwo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Momentum should be removed from controlling the
> Labour movement with immediate effect. They’ve not
> just damaged the Labour Party, they’ve damaged our
> democracy, they’ve hijacked it for their own ends
> and have facilitated a hard right government for
> the next five/ten years minimum. It’s a shocking
> and deluded power grab which needs to come to an
> end. Corbyn was used as a figurehead radical for
> momentum’s own ends.
>
> Louisa.

The Momentum presence is like the Militant Tendency-Derek Hatton etc presence in the 1980s when they were uncovered in the Labour party...and you all know what happened there- (not that I feel the same way about Mrs T as you all do obviously!)
The people do not like it...
And it's about time that people realised at the ballot box that Labour have shown nothing but contempt for the concerns of people in its heartlands since Gordon Brown and his 'bigoted woman' comment in 2010. It's just unfortunate that the Brexit Party deprived the Tories of the seats of Ed Milliband and Yvette Cooper and more.

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