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The East Dulwich Forum
The Bishop, The EDT, The Great Exhibition, the Actress or another?
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messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Blah Blah November 27, 09:26AM

Those earning over 80k are just 10%, so not really a vote loser that one. The other two affect far more people and definitely are vote losers. It comes back to this culture we have of seeing tax as bad and expecting lower variations of it AND better public services. Something will have to give sooner or later, to pay for adult social care and other looming crisis. And while Corbyn may not be the solution, a debate absolutely needs to be had and won around tax and spend that focuses on better overall outcomes and not the 'what's in it for me' mantra that dominates free market political debate.

Just back on the points above around nationalisation. There is no reason to think whatsoever that nationalisation today will resemble anything that existed in the 70s and before. There is a big difference between state owned companies trading in a global free market and state owned monopoly that shuts out any competition. One of the myths of the left around the EU for example has been that members states can not renationalise a company, when actually it is the monopolisation of a sector that is against EU rules. So whilst I take on board the points about workers ownership, incentivisation and unions made above, it also has to be pointed out that the opposite of that, wage suppression, zero hours contracts, and tax avoidance on profits sent offshore, also have consequences that are bad for the economy. We need to pull back from that too.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was november 27, 09:28am by Blah Blah.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by diable rouge November 27, 10:24AM

Captain Marvel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> You're dodging around a bit here. NHS, police,
> schools aren't what is meant by 'nationalised
> industries' and as services, however much you
> plough into them they will blame failure on
> underfunding and ask for more.

I didn't say the NHS etc were nationalised industries, I was merely giving examples of what happens when you underinvest, same applies to private companies.

I'm not pro-nationalisation for the sake of it, but I don't think it should be dismissed either, and it's lazy to keep harping back to ''look what happened in the '70's''. As BB points out it's a completely different market place now which includes successful nationalised companies, let's learn why they have been successful and can it be reciprocated in the UK.

To me the Labour manifesto is Corbyn's last hurrah before he leaves the political stage, either by resigning should Johnson get a majority, or a coalition Gov falling once a 2nd Ref has taken place. So the whole nationalisation argument is a bit of a moot point...

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Jules-and-Boo November 27, 11:05AM

Blah Blah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Those earning over 80k are just 10%, so not really
> a vote loser that one. The other two affect far
> more people and definitely are vote losers. It
> comes back to this culture we have of seeing tax
> as bad and expecting lower variations of it AND
> better public services. Something will have to
> give sooner or later, to pay for adult social care
> and other looming crisis. And while Corbyn may not
> be the solution, a debate absolutely needs to be
> had and won around tax and spend that focuses on
> better overall outcomes and not the 'what's in it
> for me' mantra that dominates free market
> political debate.
>
> Just back on the points above around
> nationalisation. There is no reason to think
> whatsoever that nationalisation today will
> resemble anything that existed in the 70s and
> before. There is a big difference between state
> owned companies trading in a global free market
> and state owned monopoly that shuts out any
> competition. One of the myths of the left around
> the EU for example has been that members states
> can not renationalise a company, when actually it
> is the monopolisation of a sector that is against
> EU rules. So whilst I take on board the points
> about workers ownership, incentivisation and
> unions made above, it also has to be pointed out
> that the opposite of that, wage suppression, zero
> hours contracts, and tax avoidance on profits sent
> offshore, also have consequences that are bad for
> the economy. We need to pull back from that too.


This makes total sense. People want more in their pocket and more investment in Infrastrure, police NHS services etc but don't see the correlation.

The real issue it the wasting of money - how spend is prioritised, how it is monitored and controlled (Garden Bridge for example, Crossrail).

Nationalisation would mean that funding can be reinvested rather than syphoned off to private investors and would mean that the priorities of the companies are no longer to make money for shareholders but to run a service.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Captain Marvel November 27, 01:11PM

'let's learn why they have been successful and can it be reciprocated in the UK.'

Surely this is no time for experimentation. I cannot think of a single UK exportable nationalised industry that has ever existed or of those proposed ever could. The idea that 'Britband' could start taking market share from anything in Europe is laughable.

And as for the utilities...

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Jules-and-Boo November 27, 01:24PM

Surely this is very much a time to pick up practices that work well elsewhere

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by rahrahrah November 27, 01:26PM

I can't believe Johnson is going to walk back into government, rip a hole in our constitution and destroy existing trade arrangements whilst claiming that Labour are radical extremists. There is nothing more extreme than Brexit.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Captain Marvel November 27, 01:48PM

'Surely this is very much a time to pick up practices that work well elsewhere'

Then why haven't we? If our utilities whether in public or private ownership have never been able to make any foreign acquisitions ever, why will that suddenly change?

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by diable rouge November 27, 01:54PM

Captain Marvel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 'let's learn why they have been successful and can
> it be reciprocated in the UK.'
>
> Surely this is no time for experimentation. I
> cannot think of a single UK exportable
> nationalised industry that has ever existed or of
> those proposed ever could. The idea that
> 'Britband' could start taking market share from
> anything in Europe is laughable.
>
> And as for the utilities...

FFS, you've done it again, I never said that, I was saying the complete opposite of importing successful ideas, as J&B rightly picked up on...

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by diable rouge November 27, 01:59PM

rahrahrah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I can't believe Johnson is going to walk back into
> government, rip a hole in our constitution and
> destroy existing trade arrangements whilst
> claiming that Labour are radical extremists. There
> is nothing more extreme than Brexit.

Indeed, worth remembering that f we Brexit, whoever wins will have their political aspirations severely undermined and limited by Brexit, it will continue to take up time and money, sucking the life out of everything around it...

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Loutwo November 27, 02:03PM

Iíve changed my mind again. Iím going to vote Labour going against all my instincts. The Anti-Semitic stuff has really unsettled me, but I donít think I can turn down the opportunity to vote for the most socialist programme post 1945. I just hope Labour will be able to resolve pockets of internal racism against Jewish people. Iíve been torn over this now since Labour released their really appealing manifesto.

I may of course change my mind again. But for now, Labour reluctantly, gets my vote.

Louisa.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by stepdown November 27, 02:13PM

Loutwo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I may of course change my mind again. But for now,
> Labour reluctantly, gets my vote.

I'm sure you'll have your own polling figures, but Labour only had a slim majority of 28,000 in 2017, so your intentions really are relevant. Please do keep us updated.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was november 27, 02:15pm by stepdown.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by cella November 27, 02:38PM

Loutwo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Iíve changed my mind again. Iím going to vote
> Labour going against all my instincts. The
> Anti-Semitic stuff has really unsettled me, but I
> donít think I can turn down the opportunity to
> vote for the most socialist programme post 1945. I
> just hope Labour will be able to resolve pockets
> of internal racism against Jewish people. Iíve
> been torn over this now since Labour released
> their really appealing manifesto.
>
> I may of course change my mind again. But for now,
> Labour reluctantly, gets my vote.
>
> Louisa.

Fantastic - that's brilliant news.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Seabag November 27, 03:11PM

Iím happier paying more tax than I am see Johnson shaft the country head to toe. Iíve got children of voting age now and theyíre way more politicised than I ever was at 19.

They wonít be voting for a Tory government, thatís pretty clear.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Jules-and-Boo November 27, 03:22PM

I don't think labour are perfect either (selling off the gold etc), but the lesser of two evils and less long term damage

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Captain Marvel November 27, 03:36PM

'FFS, you've done it again, I never said that, I was saying the complete opposite of importing successful ideas, as J&B rightly picked up on...'

No need to get testy. I merely meant that nothing should be nationalised unless its dead on its arse because we aren't good at it. And surely even you agree that 'free' broadband is ruinous claptrap.

Anyway, it looks like the daft old Trot is going to win now and there will be an immediate economic slump followed by years of more Brexit bollocks. There won't be many on here who remember socialism red in tooth and claw and it seems we don't learn from the past so fasten your seat belts.

Buy your Euros now. I'm off to the allotment

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Blah Blah November 27, 04:07PM

The prospect of a Johnson/Cummings government, leading us to the abyss of a Singapore style tax haven, is also enough to make me overlook my concerns about Corbyn and vote Labour. I suspect there will be a lot of last minute tactical voting in fact.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Jules-and-Boo November 27, 04:48PM

if Corbyn was a wise man, he'd have stepped down to make the party more acceptable to the voters.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by DulwichFox November 27, 05:20PM

Jules-and-Boo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> if Corbyn was a wise man, he'd have stepped down
> to make the party more acceptable to the voters.

Corbyn does not stand for Labour.. Corbyn stands for Corbyn

He is using The Labour Party for his own devices.

He wants Labour to win BUT only if HE is in charge.

DulwichFox

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by diable rouge November 27, 05:24PM

Captain Marvel Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> And surely even you
> agree that 'free' broadband is ruinous claptrap.

This all smacks of Corbyn trying to leave a legacy before he joins you down the allotment. Any nationalised concern should at least pay for itself in the long run, and this clearly wouldn't unless there's a way of generating income like the free newspapers do with advertising. I think it would've still been a popular proposal if they had said charges would be greatly reduced, say 50% less, and it would be free for those less able to pay, pensioners, low income families etc. Maybe that would have to happen, it wouldn't be the first time a manifesto policy was watered down once reality kicks in...

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by fishbiscuits November 27, 05:30PM

I wonder if with this free broadband stuff... they could provide free slow-ish broadband universally, and customers would have to pay to upgrade to fast (e.g. >50Mbps) speeds. And of course still charge business users and leased lines.. and it might be made self-sustaining?

(the takeover still needs to be funded, though!!)

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Rockets November 27, 08:03PM

This is Corbyn's 9th or 10th election and bar this one and the last one he had been tucked away on the fringes of the party - for good reason. Now he is the party (after being elected by the unions and set to task to weed out all of the moderates in the party) and I think we are all seeing the devastating results and the more he puts himself in the public eye and throws money and free stuff at the electorate the more objective amongst us are seeing that he can't lead his own party yet alone the country.

He will do more damage than good with his fiscally suicidal manifesto that will impact everyone not just the millionaires who work for billionaires - as he likes to put it! With each passing day his rhetoric is starting to wear a little thin and today's NHS for sale push (interestingly, a journalist asked a question on antisemitism and was told by his handlers that it wasn't an appropriate question and would not be answered) is starting to look a little desperate as he tries to wrestle his campaign back on track.

Ask any Corbynista and they will talk to you about the media-agenda against them (look how they booed Laura Kuenssberg from the BBC when she asked a question at the Labour manifesto launch) but the problem is not the media but the way Labour are running their campaign, the ineffectiveness of their leader and their steadfast refusal to deal with the problems within their own party. Labour should be running rings around this awful Tory government but they aren't and that speak volumes.

Let's hope the Labour party can eventually return to something a bit more electable in future but that won't happen until the death-grip the unions and far-left have on it is released.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by cella November 27, 09:31PM

DulwichFox Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jules-and-Boo Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > if Corbyn was a wise man, he'd have stepped
> down
> > to make the party more acceptable to the
> voters.
>
> Corbyn does not stand for Labour.. Corbyn stands
> for Corbyn
>
> He is using The Labour Party for his own devices.
>
>
> He wants Labour to win BUT only if HE is in
> charge.
>
> DulwichFox

Utter rot. He's been in the Party for decades. What devices is he "using" the Party for?

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Sue November 28, 12:34AM

DulwichFox Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Corbyn does not stand for Labour.. Corbyn stands
> for Corbyn
>
> He is using The Labour Party for his own devices.
>
>
> He wants Labour to win BUT only if HE is in
> charge.


What a load of bollocks.

What evidence have you got for that?

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Blah Blah November 28, 06:21AM

I have to agree. The very idea that Corbyn is some kind of carer driven ideologue is pure fantasy.

In reply to Rockets;

Everyone seems to forget where the bulk of the Labour PLP sits. They are very quiet at the moment but they are by no means Corbynistas. No-one thinks Corbyn will win a majority in the election. The best that is expected is a coalition, that can get us to a 2nd referendum on Brexit, before another GE. So what Corbyn can actually do in government is going to be very limited.

Corbyn also was not elected by the Unions, he was elected by two thirds of the membership (and twice at that). Maybe learn how the Labour Party actually works before commenting on how leaders are elected?

There is a debate to be had about irresponsible borrowing for sure. But it is also worth remembering that John McDonnell has a record for staying within budgets when he was head of finance at the GLA. Much of that manifesto actually only returns us to the tax and spend of Blair. Corporation Tax for example was higher under Thatcher, much higher. Yes the difference is the level of borrowing, so let's have a detailed debate around that, based on pure economics, over some vague dismissal of both the need for that kind of investment and how it is paid for.

On the NHS, Corbyn is absolutely right to push the evidence for pharma being on the table in any US trade deal. You would have to be completely stupid to think the US won't push for this, and even stupider to think a government desperate for a trade deal won't cave in to something. This is a perfect demonstration of how much more difficult trade negotiations become on our own, as opposed to being part of a large trading block. We were able to remove the NHS from TTIP precisely for that reason. We won't be able to do that so easily on our own, and desperate for a trade deal.

I can however agree that Labour should be doing better, but do not make the mistake of confusing what needs to be addressed (and Labour are right in the need for radical thinking on many of those issues) and the failure of a leadership to set out a credible manifesto that can offer solutions that persuade an electorate. A Labour led coalition is going to be the best outcome from a pretty dire political offering this time round (for many reasons) I think.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was november 28, 06:24am by Blah Blah.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Rockets November 28, 07:26AM

We will agree to disagree on who really has the power in Labour nowadays...it started with the election of Ed rather than David and we all know how that happened. Momentum has rooted out the moderates under Corbyn's watch and the real power lies with McDonnell and McClusky.

It is interesting to read the BBC writing about a change of direction for Labour in the last two weeks of the election: it is clear what they have been doing is not working.

Barry Gardiner is doing the media rounds and spending a lot of his time having to defend his treatment
of the ITV journalist yesterday and whether he believes in the freedom of the press. The subtlety in what happened there was Jeremy sitting there letting it happen taking notes quite happy not to answer the question: everything Jeremy is doing from neutral on Brexit, to the TV debates and the Andrew Neil interview is projecting weakness and that is hurting Labour. The Labour leadership team spend most of their time having to undo issues they created.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by pk November 28, 09:51AM

Blah Blah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The best that is expected is a coalition, that can
> get us to a 2nd referendum on Brexit, before
> another GE. So what Corbyn can actually do in
> government is going to be very limited.
>
>

I agree that this is the best that can be expected and would be a good outcome - deal with Brexit in isolation via a ref and then come back to elect a new government once that decision's been made (on a binary remain or specific deal basis, not a 'leave means leave' mantra)

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Spartacus November 28, 10:50AM

Someone sent me a message stating
"A vote for Labour is a vote for a coalition with the SNP and Nicola being the puppet Mistress"

That would worry me more than anyone else being in power as her demands would destroy this country

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by diable rouge November 28, 11:30AM

Scotland will get a 2nd indy ref at some point in the next couple of years regardless of who wins the GE. They are going to do well in the GE and then the Scottish Parliament will vote for a 2nd indy ref, which even Johnson if he wins won't be able to ignore. I'd argue that there's more chance of the Union splitting under Johnson and Brexit than Corbyn and a 2nd ref...

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by Alan Medic November 28, 01:31PM

Spartacus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Someone sent me a message stating
> "A vote for Labour is a vote for a coalition with
> the SNP and Nicola being the puppet Mistress"
>
> That would worry me more than anyone else being in
> power as her demands would destroy this country

Scotland is a country and should be allowed to choose to leave one Union and stay in another if it wants to.

messageRe: Who to vote for?
Posted by keano77 November 28, 01:44PM

Sounds simple Alan. However weíve seen the difficulties in disentangling ourselves from 40 years of EU membership. How much more difficult to unravel 400 years of Union?

What belongs to the Crown? Defence and coastal waters? An economic border between England and Scotland if weíre not in the EU? Tariffs for cross-border trade?

I donít think this has been thought through

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