Jump to content

Its a minefield...


TheCat

Recommended Posts

So....as a white person I'm apparently racist if I dont 'understand that i'll never understand'....and even if I try to understand, its also racist to ask a person of colour (the people who do understand) to explain it to me....


Also...Its 'racial profiling' if I assume that any person of colour understands and can explain it to me, but not racial profiling to assume that i (as not a person of colour) will never understand.


Also, good intentions arent enough, but try getting involved and you're probably a self-appointed White ally or have a white savior complex.


(See attached for more)



For clarity....the police/race issue in the US is clearly a serious problem; as is racism in any form, and we clearly all need to find ways to combat racial prejudice as a society.....but so many serious discussions on this issue are being hampered when the woke-police continue to add layer upon layer of verboten language/questions/behaviour.


I beleive its got to the point that we (more often than not) cant even have a discussion about it? I've seen people taken down on television/social media for not blindly buying into every new catchphrase associated with this issue. (im sure someone will brand me racist for this thread)


But....dont we tell children to ask as many questions as possible? dont we use phrases like "asking questions is how you learn' and 'there are no stupid questions'?


I dont think im alone in wanting an open discussion on some of the more contentious views around this issue, but also not alone in that I dont want to be branded a racist for doing so. So - I'll just stay silent like a good many other people. And probabbly unfort be branded a rascist for doing that too.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So I'm a pretty passionate advocate for combating climate change, but I think the extinction rebellion people (while well meaning) are totally misguided in their approach.


Does that mean I need 'more education' about climate change?


Similaly...Ive read a bit on the racism topic, and while I (like many others)...would consider myself 'anti rascist'...I don't think I need 'more education'. I just happen to disagree with the ultra-progressive narrative in how to combat racial prejudice. I find it, in its purest form, highly divisive.


Allow me to use woke/progressive language to make my point. Black (and other minorities) people, by virtue of their 'lived experience' are the only ones who can truly understand racism, right? But if 'White privilege' is part of the problem, then surely people who've experienced white privelige are also part of the solution. No black person can ever truly understand the mentality and experience of a person with white privilege (according to the same logic). So how can 'the oppressed' hope to find the language and the approach to dictate how the 'oppressors' should act, without ever really understanding what it's like to be an oppressor. Maybe they should just 'understand that they'll never understand'....


Ridiculous right?


People who've experienced racism (systematic or otherwise) surely cannot hold a monopoly on the way the problem (in which EVERYONE is an actor) can be solved. They are or course vital contributors to any solution. But that solution will need to be a solution for ALL to be able to work sustainably. Dialogue, questions, different viewpoints (Ironically enough....diversity is what's needed). Not dismissal of even mild disagreement (with one approach) as simply a lack of 'education'.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The answer to your question TheCat is in the role that class, money, opportunity, and history, plays in privilege. In most societies, that is owned by a small percentage of the dominant ethnic group and/or in some societies, the dominant cultural group. The issue with Imperialism and Empire, is a historical legacy of that being turned upside down in 'acquired' colonies by a minority group who exploit the rest. This is where the legacy of white privilege finds its roots, with people of other ethnic groups being the ones exploited most. Black people understand this perfectly. So do many white people. And you state, quite rightly, that those who benefit from white privilege need to be part of the solution. However, why would they be incentivised to do anything that compromises the privilege they enjoy? Most of them can't even acknowledge the privilege they enjoy over other white people, let along think they should do anything to level the playing field. Privilege is a self preserving construct. This is why very little actually changes in the social order until it is forced to do so.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ronnijade Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I think anyone who questions racial injustice

> probably has their priorities a bit muddled. You

> may not be as well educated as you assume, TheCat.

> I don?t see the point in this thread.


And herin lies a perfect example of what I'm talking about. I'm not questioning the existence of racial injustice in anyway. But I raise some questions about the narrative surrounding it, and all your blinkered mind sees someone denying racial injustice is a problem?


All topped off by the classic woke-trope of 'educate yourself'...I.e.'you're questioning something that I unquestionably believe, it can't possibly be becuase there might other ways to think about it, it must be because you're ignorant of the things I 'know' to be true...you need to go educate yourself' FFS

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Blah Blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The answer to your question TheCat is in the role

> that class, money, opportunity, and history, plays

> in privilege. In most societies, that is owned by

> a small percentage of the dominant ethnic group

> and/or in some societies, the dominant cultural

> group. The issue with Imperialism and Empire, is a

> historical legacy of that being turned upside down

> in 'acquired' colonies by a minority group who

> exploit the rest. This is where the legacy of

> white privilege finds its roots, with people of

> other ethnic groups being the ones exploited most.

> Black people understand this perfectly. So do many

> white people. And you state, quite rightly, that

> those who benefit from white privilege need to be

> part of the solution. However, why would they be

> incentivised to do anything that compromises the

> privilege they enjoy? Most of them can't even

> acknowledge the privilege they enjoy over other

> white people, let along think they should do

> anything to level the playing field. Privilege is

> a self preserving construct. This is why very

> little actually changes in the social order until

> it is forced to do so.


It seems you have a different definition of privilege than Janaya Khan (co founder of black lives matter), who says that?"Privilege isn't about what you've gone through; it's about what you haven't had to go through."


So, surely by everyone being involved in the dialogue (rather than white people being #MUTEDBUTLISTENING...or #SILENCED depending on your viewpoint) means minorities can be elevated so that no one has to 'go through' it...so no one loses their privilege, just some people gain it.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

KidKruger Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Cat, people love to jump on this one.

> Weirdly, in a way they wouldn't to your face.

> Well done bringing it up, there is a sense of

> "who's entitled to talk about what" on this

> subject.


Thanks. Exactly my point. When I see people who I know - who are smart, considered, and very anti-racist - prostrating themselves on social media, and suggesting they are not entitled to talk about the issue, I just don't get it.


I'm guessing it all started with 'listen to the victims' which is fair...but its now morphed into 'listen ONLY to the victims'.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't hear 'listen only to the victims' - I hear research and read and obtain knowledge (and that includes what victims have written as we aren't a folk tale society, we have books and the internet) - you can't experience first hand but you can extrapolate and emphasise (well most can - some apparently can't).


You can go through websites like the below - which is a teaching resource.


https://www.tolerance.org/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It seems you have a different definition of

> privilege than Janaya Khan (co founder of black

> lives matter), who says that?"Privilege isn't

> about what you've gone through; it's about what

> you haven't had to go through."


I am mystified as to how you can conclude that by anything I wrote. Read my post again. It was a valid point on the historical development of entrenched privilege and why it is so hard to compete with. If however you want to debate a quote by Janaya Khan instead, that is fine (I agree with her point too btw). Just don't conflate that with anything I have not actually said ;)


> So, surely by everyone being involved in the

> dialogue (rather than white people being

> #MUTEDBUTLISTENING...or #SILENCED depending on

> your viewpoint) means minorities can be elevated

> so that no one has to 'go through' it...so no one

> loses their privilege, just some people gain

> it.....


But that ignores the central point I made about self preserving entrenchment of class based privilege. That exists. Those who have most never want to give any of it up. If they did, there would be no Monarchy, no public schools, no institution of any sort that rewards people by the luck of who they are born to. Yes we can have detailed debates about that, but none of that changes the inequalities caused by that entrenchment of privilege.


There was a documentary a little while ago that looked at the struggles of Black graduates entering into certain professions, like law, the city etc. All the data shows that black students can go to the same colleges as their white middle/ upper class counterparts, do better in their final results, but fail to be as successful as those counterparts in being recruited to top city firms etc. THAT is an example of white privilege self preserving. It seeks to preserve its own class culture. This is precisely why BAME/ working class/ Women etc struggle to climb ladders and break glass ceilings. And when they do, it because they can play the game, become like those whose club they are allowed into. It rarely changes the other way round.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Setting boundaries on subjects people can and cannot talk about is just another form of control.

Trump is doing it right now.

It's a win-win; you create your own privileged (yes, I used that word - oops !!) group through your natural 'entitlement' to speak on it because somehow YOU 'qualify' and all the while the excluded (or 'unqualified') can't interfere.

Basically exclusion by other means.

And that's a bit stupid, because the whole point of pushing for change means those in power have to change, but achieving that by excluding them from having their say is fantasy.

So it's all a bit 'dog calling the cat hairy-arse' (all similarity between the words of this phrase and the UserID of any posters is purely coincidental).



TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> KidKruger Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Cat, people love to jump on this one.

> > Weirdly, in a way they wouldn't to your face.

> > Well done bringing it up, there is a sense of

> > "who's entitled to talk about what" on this

> > subject.

>

> Thanks. Exactly my point. When I see people who I

> know - who are smart, considered, and very

> anti-racist - prostrating themselves on social

> media, and suggesting they are not entitled to

> talk about the issue, I just don't get it.

>

> I'm guessing it all started with 'listen to the

> victims' which is fair...but its now morphed into

> 'listen ONLY to the victims'.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

KidKruger Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Setting boundaries on subjects people can and

> cannot talk about is just another form of

> control.

> Trump is doing it right now.

> It's a win-win; you create your own privileged

> (yes, I used that word - oops !!) group through

> your natural 'entitlement' to speak on it because

> somehow YOU 'qualify' and all the while the

> excluded (or 'unqualified') can't interfere.

> Basically exclusion by other means.

> And that's a bit stupid, because the whole point

> of pushing for change means those in power have to

> change, but achieving that by excluding them from

> having their say is fantasy.

> So it's all a bit 'dog calling the cat hairy-arse'

> (all similarity between the words of this phrase

> and the UserID of any posters is purely

> coincidental).


But all academic subjects are a bit like that - I can't argue Einsteins General Theory of Relativity is wrong to scientists even though I know it is because all science is wrong (it'll be improved on eventually) without learning the jargon and received wisdom first. I could learn Trumps jargon - It's just I feel Trumps s** isn't worth my time to learn - but we probably should and some people no doubt have just to take it down.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cat, go on admit it, this is not a minefield but a goldmine for you as you love a good argument and debate. Not the five minute one here but a full half an hour. Me? Just reinforces my views how much more tolerant and liberal society is in the UK, however imperfect we may be.


To lob a small grenade in how does the last major riots in the UK (2011) compare with what we are seeing in the US. Not the size of course but the background/reasoning/managing. Extracting from Cameron's speech after the riots: This is a great country of good people. Those thugs we saw last week do not represent us, nor do they represent our young people - and they will not drag us down.


It goes into stuff about broken society whether we have the "determination to confront the slow-motion moral collapse that has taken place in parts of our country these past few generations" Interesting reading. https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/pms-speech-on-the-fightback-after-the-riots

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I get what you're saying JohnL, but I feel there's a difference between some of the most difficult science in the history of mankind, and moral discussion. Don't you ?!


JohnL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

But all academic subjects are a bit like that - I

> can't argue Einsteins General Theory of Relativity

> is wrong to scientists even though I know it is

> because all science is wrong (it'll be improved on

> eventually) without learning the jargon and

> received wisdom first.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

KidKruger Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I get what you're saying JohnL, but I feel there's

> a difference between some of the most difficult

> science in the history of mankind, and moral

> discussion. Don't you ?!

>

> JohnL Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> But all academic subjects are a bit like that - I

> > can't argue Einsteins General Theory of

> Relativity

> > is wrong to scientists even though I know it is

> > because all science is wrong (it'll be improved

> on

> > eventually) without learning the jargon and

> > received wisdom first.


Yes - a moral discussion is probably more difficult :).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Latest Discussions

    • A repetitive tried and tested cycle that seems to be slowing down in London thankfully. Brixton was the start. Councils consciously and purposely let an area decline until that area is next on the list for social and ethnic cleansing and ultimately gentrification. In come the first wave of arty/ creatives to squat and house share. A few coffee shops and cool but inexpensive cafe/ bars and art spaces open up. The crackheads, dealers and other assorted criminals who were once left to operate openly and brazenly to sell, shop lift, mug, beg, purchase,  publicly consume on decent folks doorsteps, stairwells,in bin sheds and without fear of the law begin to be targeted, rounded up and moved on. A few more jaunty and sustainable coffee shops/ bars appear . The Guardian and other facilitators in the media jump on the bandwagon, first claims of vibrancy are rolled out. Next step a few cool retro clothing shops pop up selling ' reclaimed Levi's for more than they originally cost and ten times the price of what the recently departed charity shop charged. Foxtons open a branch and the arty types and first wavers/ drivers have there first moan about there initially paltry rents going up. The guardian do a generic lets move to Brixton, Dalston, Hackney, Deptford, Walthamstow type double pager. Interview a graphic designer or two who have just bought a former crack den on the manor for next to peanuts. They will later bemoan the next wave who have more money than them. Cool, edgy and vibrant are now the buzzword bingo must use lingo. Few more coffee shops ( how original ) Pop up everything,. Organic and sour dough move in. The night time economy starts to thrive, more cool bars and eateries open. More squats and the last crack house that was once one of many are cleared out. Second wave is around the corner.   All of a sudden there's a visible police presence again and the streets are safe for fun seekers with plenty of disposable cash to chuck about on a dose of vibrancy with added coolness. By this stage even the locally brewed beer is organic. There's queues outside the newly arrived organic, sourdough, artisan and sustainable bakers. Instagram has Brixton trending. The greasy spoon of thirty year has gone cause the lease is up and the landlord has hiked the rents up by 60/70%. Followed by small family run independents that served the community  for decades and more.  The local characters, activists, eccentrics are getting less and less. There's a new show in town for a week or two and until the next brand arrives. Brewdog move in. Former job centres are converted into bars but peak edginess means it's still called the job centre. Followed by a couple more chain eateries. The resident DJ'S and music venues are replaced by another generic brand boasting guest chefs. The Guardian lifestyle section is now on it's fifth or sixth orgasm. Turn a few pages and hypocrisy is rampant with articles on the evils of gentrification, foxtons, capitalism, social cleansing and unaffordable housing. The middle classes continue to arrive in there droves to buy into the vibrancy and multiculturalism supposedly on offer. There isn't much multiculturalism going on at the packed latest place to eat, drink and fart. The multiculturalism on show comes in the form of bar staff, doorman and cheap as chips uber drivers and delivery workers. Rice and peas, jerk everything, red stripe at six quid a can from some hipster haunt that is currently flavour of the month and the place to be seen. The first wavers are now blaming the latest hedge funded brand that's pulled into town for driving gentrification and there soon to be hastened departure to be first wavers again somewhere else. Less cool but up and coming here we come. Covid has certainly helped/ been a factor in slowing down the process of gentrification. I also think it may be the driver for almost putting a stop to it. Remote working, less need to move to London to be near an office, less disposable cash, sky high rents, worthless degrees that relied on that disposable cash , different priorities, knife and gang crime and a large dose of much needed realism has put a huge spanner in the works for the shitty process and cycle that is/ was the gentrification and social cleansing of working class London. Manchester and Liverpool is next on the list for the planners. Thankfully.
    • Can you just queue up to withdraw cash or are other transactions like stamp purchasing required?  Do M&S do cash back?
    • Or don't stop using cash. Stop using your phone or even your watch as a banknote. At the same time avoid the risk of having your card cloned at cash points, by hand held card readers, oyster readers and point-of sale terminals to name a few. God only knows how much damage we're doing to the planet because all the above must require a hell of a lot of resources and juice from the grid. It won't happen though. I know of quite a few people who deem carrying cash about as a pain/ chore. But not a big lump of plastic with a screen and full of personal information that can be easily gleamed. I feel the same about carrying a phone about so i don't most of the time. I'll be in the minority but certainly don't see or treat a phone as a necessity.  You can't get a banknote out of your sky rocket with a phone in your hand. It's become a source of dopamine for many. It's an addiction for many. They're an easy target for thieves. They're a godsend to cyber fraudsters who are stealing billions and are doing so without the need of cash points.
    • There used to be an Osteopath at The Gardens (not physio) but they have since left.
Home
Events
Sign In

Sign In



Or sign in with one of these services

Search
×
    Search In
×
×
  • Create New...