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The Bishop, The EDT, The Great Exhibition, the Actress or another?
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messageIts a minefield...attachment
Posted by TheCat June 02, 03:18PM

So....as a white person I'm apparently racist if I dont 'understand that i'll never understand'....and even if I try to understand, its also racist to ask a person of colour (the people who do understand) to explain it to me....

Also...Its 'racial profiling' if I assume that any person of colour understands and can explain it to me, but not racial profiling to assume that i (as not a person of colour) will never understand.

Also, good intentions arent enough, but try getting involved and you're probably a self-appointed White ally or have a white savior complex.

(See attached for more)


For clarity....the police/race issue in the US is clearly a serious problem; as is racism in any form, and we clearly all need to find ways to combat racial prejudice as a society.....but so many serious discussions on this issue are being hampered when the woke-police continue to add layer upon layer of verboten language/questions/behaviour.

I beleive its got to the point that we (more often than not) cant even have a discussion about it? I've seen people taken down on television/social media for not blindly buying into every new catchphrase associated with this issue. (im sure someone will brand me racist for this thread)

But....dont we tell children to ask as many questions as possible? dont we use phrases like "asking questions is how you learn' and 'there are no stupid questions'?

I dont think im alone in wanting an open discussion on some of the more contentious views around this issue, but also not alone in that I dont want to be branded a racist for doing so. So - I'll just stay silent like a good many other people. And probabbly unfort be branded a rascist for doing that too.....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was june 02, 03:22pm by TheCat.

Attachments: Word jumble.jpg (57KB)  
messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by Orange owl June 02, 03:42PM

You seem quite bright why not have a think

messageRe: Its a minefield...attachment
Posted by DulwichBorn&Bred June 02, 03:51PM

What would you like help with?

Attachments: 687E0550-D2E4-43CE-AEC5-FCC80E4593E4.jpeg (156.1KB)  
messageRe: Its a minefield...attachment
Posted by DulwichBorn&Bred June 02, 03:52PM

Some books to read?

Attachments: 714F47F4-6EBD-4527-858B-1BB391B18A9A.jpeg (97.4KB)  
messageRe: Its a minefield...attachment
Posted by DulwichBorn&Bred June 02, 03:55PM

Because I like attachments, I have added another one.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was june 02, 03:57pm by DulwichBorn&Bred.

Attachments: 898D2CD1-BCE7-4A68-903D-F840BA31F1AE.jpeg (98.6KB)  
messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by TheCat June 02, 06:46PM

So I'm a pretty passionate advocate for combating climate change, but I think the extinction rebellion people (while well meaning) are totally misguided in their approach.

Does that mean I need 'more education' about climate change?

Similaly...Ive read a bit on the racism topic, and while I (like many others)...would consider myself 'anti rascist'...I don't think I need 'more education'. I just happen to disagree with the ultra-progressive narrative in how to combat racial prejudice. I find it, in its purest form, highly divisive.

Allow me to use woke/progressive language to make my point. Black (and other minorities) people, by virtue of their 'lived experience' are the only ones who can truly understand racism, right? But if 'White privilege' is part of the problem, then surely people who've experienced white privelige are also part of the solution. No black person can ever truly understand the mentality and experience of a person with white privilege (according to the same logic). So how can 'the oppressed' hope to find the language and the approach to dictate how the 'oppressors' should act, without ever really understanding what it's like to be an oppressor. Maybe they should just 'understand that they'll never understand'....

Ridiculous right?

People who've experienced racism (systematic or otherwise) surely cannot hold a monopoly on the way the problem (in which EVERYONE is an actor) can be solved. They are or course vital contributors to any solution. But that solution will need to be a solution for ALL to be able to work sustainably. Dialogue, questions, different viewpoints (Ironically enough....diversity is what's needed). Not dismissal of even mild disagreement (with one approach) as simply a lack of 'education'.....



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was june 02, 07:39pm by TheCat.

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by Blah Blah June 02, 07:59PM

The answer to your question TheCat is in the role that class, money, opportunity, and history, plays in privilege. In most societies, that is owned by a small percentage of the dominant ethnic group and/or in some societies, the dominant cultural group. The issue with Imperialism and Empire, is a historical legacy of that being turned upside down in 'acquired' colonies by a minority group who exploit the rest. This is where the legacy of white privilege finds its roots, with people of other ethnic groups being the ones exploited most. Black people understand this perfectly. So do many white people. And you state, quite rightly, that those who benefit from white privilege need to be part of the solution. However, why would they be incentivised to do anything that compromises the privilege they enjoy? Most of them can't even acknowledge the privilege they enjoy over other white people, let along think they should do anything to level the playing field. Privilege is a self preserving construct. This is why very little actually changes in the social order until it is forced to do so.

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by seenbeen June 02, 11:28PM

You forgot gender....

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by Ronnijade June 03, 04:29AM

I think anyone who questions racial injustice probably has their priorities a bit muddled. You may not be as well educated as you assume, TheCat. I donít see the point in this thread.

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by TheCat June 03, 07:17AM

Ronnijade Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think anyone who questions racial injustice
> probably has their priorities a bit muddled. You
> may not be as well educated as you assume, TheCat.
> I donít see the point in this thread.

And herin lies a perfect example of what I'm talking about. I'm not questioning the existence of racial injustice in anyway. But I raise some questions about the narrative surrounding it, and all your blinkered mind sees someone denying racial injustice is a problem?

All topped off by the classic woke-trope of 'educate yourself'...I.e.'you're questioning something that I unquestionably believe, it can't possibly be becuase there might other ways to think about it, it must be because you're ignorant of the things I 'know' to be true...you need to go educate yourself' FFS



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was june 03, 07:38am by TheCat.

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by KidKruger June 03, 07:31AM

Cat, people love to jump on this one.
Weirdly, in a way they wouldn't to your face.
Well done bringing it up, there is a sense of "who's entitled to talk about what" on this subject.

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by TheCat June 03, 07:32AM

Blah Blah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The answer to your question TheCat is in the role
> that class, money, opportunity, and history, plays
> in privilege. In most societies, that is owned by
> a small percentage of the dominant ethnic group
> and/or in some societies, the dominant cultural
> group. The issue with Imperialism and Empire, is a
> historical legacy of that being turned upside down
> in 'acquired' colonies by a minority group who
> exploit the rest. This is where the legacy of
> white privilege finds its roots, with people of
> other ethnic groups being the ones exploited most.
> Black people understand this perfectly. So do many
> white people. And you state, quite rightly, that
> those who benefit from white privilege need to be
> part of the solution. However, why would they be
> incentivised to do anything that compromises the
> privilege they enjoy? Most of them can't even
> acknowledge the privilege they enjoy over other
> white people, let along think they should do
> anything to level the playing field. Privilege is
> a self preserving construct. This is why very
> little actually changes in the social order until
> it is forced to do so.

It seems you have a different definition of privilege than Janaya Khan (co founder of black lives matter), who says that†"Privilege isn't about what you've gone through; it's about what you haven't had to go through."

So, surely by everyone being involved in the dialogue (rather than white people being #MUTEDBUTLISTENING...or #SILENCED depending on your viewpoint) means minorities can be elevated so that no one has to 'go through' it...so no one loses their privilege, just some people gain it.....

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by TheCat June 03, 07:43AM

KidKruger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cat, people love to jump on this one.
> Weirdly, in a way they wouldn't to your face.
> Well done bringing it up, there is a sense of
> "who's entitled to talk about what" on this
> subject.

Thanks. Exactly my point. When I see people who I know - who are smart, considered, and very anti-racist - prostrating themselves on social media, and suggesting they are not entitled to talk about the issue, I just don't get it.

I'm guessing it all started with 'listen to the victims' which is fair...but its now morphed into 'listen ONLY to the victims'.....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was june 03, 07:52am by TheCat.

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by pk June 03, 08:15AM

TheCat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I just don't get it.
>
for once we agree

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by JohnL June 03, 08:35AM

I don't hear 'listen only to the victims' - I hear research and read and obtain knowledge (and that includes what victims have written as we aren't a folk tale society, we have books and the internet) - you can't experience first hand but you can extrapolate and emphasise (well most can - some apparently can't).

You can go through websites like the below - which is a teaching resource.

[www.tolerance.org]

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by Blah Blah June 03, 09:20AM

TheCat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It seems you have a different definition of
> privilege than Janaya Khan (co founder of black
> lives matter), who says that†"Privilege isn't
> about what you've gone through; it's about what
> you haven't had to go through."

I am mystified as to how you can conclude that by anything I wrote. Read my post again. It was a valid point on the historical development of entrenched privilege and why it is so hard to compete with. If however you want to debate a quote by Janaya Khan instead, that is fine (I agree with her point too btw). Just don't conflate that with anything I have not actually said ;)

> So, surely by everyone being involved in the
> dialogue (rather than white people being
> #MUTEDBUTLISTENING...or #SILENCED depending on
> your viewpoint) means minorities can be elevated
> so that no one has to 'go through' it...so no one
> loses their privilege, just some people gain
> it.....

But that ignores the central point I made about self preserving entrenchment of class based privilege. That exists. Those who have most never want to give any of it up. If they did, there would be no Monarchy, no public schools, no institution of any sort that rewards people by the luck of who they are born to. Yes we can have detailed debates about that, but none of that changes the inequalities caused by that entrenchment of privilege.

There was a documentary a little while ago that looked at the struggles of Black graduates entering into certain professions, like law, the city etc. All the data shows that black students can go to the same colleges as their white middle/ upper class counterparts, do better in their final results, but fail to be as successful as those counterparts in being recruited to top city firms etc. THAT is an example of white privilege self preserving. It seeks to preserve its own class culture. This is precisely why BAME/ working class/ Women etc struggle to climb ladders and break glass ceilings. And when they do, it because they can play the game, become like those whose club they are allowed into. It rarely changes the other way round.

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by KidKruger June 03, 09:24AM

Setting boundaries on subjects people can and cannot talk about is just another form of control.
Trump is doing it right now.
It's a win-win; you create your own privileged (yes, I used that word - oops !!) group through your natural 'entitlement' to speak on it because somehow YOU 'qualify' and all the while the excluded (or 'unqualified') can't interfere.
Basically exclusion by other means.
And that's a bit stupid, because the whole point of pushing for change means those in power have to change, but achieving that by excluding them from having their say is fantasy.
So it's all a bit 'dog calling the cat hairy-arse' (all similarity between the words of this phrase and the UserID of any posters is purely coincidental).


TheCat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> KidKruger Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Cat, people love to jump on this one.
> > Weirdly, in a way they wouldn't to your face.
> > Well done bringing it up, there is a sense of
> > "who's entitled to talk about what" on this
> > subject.
>
> Thanks. Exactly my point. When I see people who I
> know - who are smart, considered, and very
> anti-racist - prostrating themselves on social
> media, and suggesting they are not entitled to
> talk about the issue, I just don't get it.
>
> I'm guessing it all started with 'listen to the
> victims' which is fair...but its now morphed into
> 'listen ONLY to the victims'.....

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by Blah Blah June 03, 09:33AM

This is an article from the US from three years ago, but all of its content remains relevant today.

[www.yesmagazine.org]

Sixty percent of the US population are white Caucasian. So why are other ethnic groups so disproportionately impacted by everything?

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by JohnL June 03, 09:38AM

KidKruger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Setting boundaries on subjects people can and
> cannot talk about is just another form of
> control.
> Trump is doing it right now.
> It's a win-win; you create your own privileged
> (yes, I used that word - oops !!) group through
> your natural 'entitlement' to speak on it because
> somehow YOU 'qualify' and all the while the
> excluded (or 'unqualified') can't interfere.
> Basically exclusion by other means.
> And that's a bit stupid, because the whole point
> of pushing for change means those in power have to
> change, but achieving that by excluding them from
> having their say is fantasy.
> So it's all a bit 'dog calling the cat hairy-arse'
> (all similarity between the words of this phrase
> and the UserID of any posters is purely
> coincidental).

But all academic subjects are a bit like that - I can't argue Einsteins General Theory of Relativity is wrong to scientists even though I know it is because all science is wrong (it'll be improved on eventually) without learning the jargon and received wisdom first. I could learn Trumps jargon - It's just I feel Trumps s** isn't worth my time to learn - but we probably should and some people no doubt have just to take it down.

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by malumbu June 03, 09:42AM

Cat, go on admit it, this is not a minefield but a goldmine for you as you love a good argument and debate. Not the five minute one here but a full half an hour. Me? Just reinforces my views how much more tolerant and liberal society is in the UK, however imperfect we may be.

To lob a small grenade in how does the last major riots in the UK (2011) compare with what we are seeing in the US. Not the size of course but the background/reasoning/managing. Extracting from Cameron's speech after the riots: This is a great country of good people. Those thugs we saw last week do not represent us, nor do they represent our young people - and they will not drag us down.

It goes into stuff about broken society whether we have the "determination to confront the slow-motion moral collapse that has taken place in parts of our country these past few generations" Interesting reading. [www.gov.uk]

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by Blah Blah June 03, 09:47AM

I am curious to know who exactly TheCat is thinking of when arguing that some people have been taken down on social media for expressing views around this subject ;)

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by KidKruger June 03, 09:48AM

I get what you're saying JohnL, but I feel there's a difference between some of the most difficult science in the history of mankind, and moral discussion. Don't you ?!

JohnL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
But all academic subjects are a bit like that - I
> can't argue Einsteins General Theory of Relativity
> is wrong to scientists even though I know it is
> because all science is wrong (it'll be improved on
> eventually) without learning the jargon and
> received wisdom first.

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by JohnL June 03, 09:56AM

KidKruger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I get what you're saying JohnL, but I feel there's
> a difference between some of the most difficult
> science in the history of mankind, and moral
> discussion. Don't you ?!
>
> JohnL Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> But all academic subjects are a bit like that - I
> > can't argue Einsteins General Theory of
> Relativity
> > is wrong to scientists even though I know it is
> > because all science is wrong (it'll be improved
> on
> > eventually) without learning the jargon and
> > received wisdom first.

Yes - a moral discussion is probably more difficult smiling smiley.

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by JohnL June 03, 10:47AM

Facebook friend who does a lot of football writing sent this just now (first 20 mins is a sort of personal discussion on racism)

[stadio.football]

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by uncleglen June 03, 12:42PM

How can people have a serious discussion about racism when the hypocrisy manifested in these situations exists.
[www.theguardian.com]

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by TheCat June 03, 01:04PM

pk Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TheCat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I just don't get it.
> >
> for once we agree

feel free to actually add something construcive to the discussion pk. I know thinking for yourself can be really difficult. But im 10% sure you can do it.

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by TheCat June 03, 01:10PM

Blah Blah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TheCat Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It seems you have a different definition of
> > privilege than Janaya Khan (co founder of black
> > lives matter), who says that†"Privilege isn't
> > about what you've gone through; it's about what
> > you haven't had to go through."
>
> I am mystified as to how you can conclude that by
> anything I wrote. Read my post again. It was a
> valid point on the historical development of
> entrenched privilege and why it is so hard to
> compete with. If however you want to debate a
> quote by Janaya Khan instead, that is fine (I
> agree with her point too btw). Just don't conflate
> that with anything I have not actually said ;)
>
> > So, surely by everyone being involved in the
> > dialogue (rather than white people being
> > #MUTEDBUTLISTENING...or #SILENCED depending on
> > your viewpoint) means minorities can be
> elevated
> > so that no one has to 'go through' it...so no
> one
> > loses their privilege, just some people gain
> > it.....
>
> But that ignores the central point I made about
> self preserving entrenchment of class based
> privilege. That exists. Those who have most never
> want to give any of it up. If they did, there
> would be no Monarchy, no public schools, no
> institution of any sort that rewards people by the
> luck of who they are born to. Yes we can have
> detailed debates about that, but none of that
> changes the inequalities caused by that
> entrenchment of privilege.
>
> There was a documentary a little while ago that
> looked at the struggles of Black graduates
> entering into certain professions, like law, the
> city etc. All the data shows that black students
> can go to the same colleges as their white middle/
> upper class counterparts, do better in their final
> results, but fail to be as successful as those
> counterparts in being recruited to top city firms
> etc. THAT is an example of white privilege self
> preserving. It seeks to preserve its own class
> culture. This is precisely why BAME/ working
> class/ Women etc struggle to climb ladders and
> break glass ceilings. And when they do, it because
> they can play the game, become like those whose
> club they are allowed into. It rarely changes the
> other way round.

okay fair enough...we're sort of talking to slightly different points to be fair. But they do compliment eachother I think....You're suggesting that people with privelige want to protect it. I would say that (unless its a bloody revolution), then the only way to coax them down off the mountain is by involving them in the conversation - people shouting from the bottom of the mountain about how the people at the top must behave without their buy-in is unlikely to be successful I would guess...

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by SpringTime June 03, 01:38PM

Do all white people have white privilege? I'd say in the UK the majority of white people have barely any priviege at all for their colour. Happy to be corrected.

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by ED Bird June 03, 02:17PM

KidKruger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cat, people love to jump on this one.
> Weirdly, in a way they wouldn't to your face.
> Well done bringing it up, there is a sense of
> "who's entitled to talk about what" on this
> subject.

Exactly.

TheCat, If you are willing to understand & if need be enlightened, you are on the right path.
The same cannot be said for the negative messages of unwillingness to solve the problem.

I'll just place these right here. Maybe these people can educate themselves, because Martin Luther King & Malcholm X clashed in their solution, but they both agreed on one thing; that the left could not be trusted.



https://i.redd.it/azfns6l6bt011.jpg


Thomas Sowell:

https://themillennialbridge.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/67330867_373691953323164_4898320414648934685_n.jpg

Let that sink in.

Alveda King {MLK's niece}, Candace Owens [www.instagram.com].... two black women who voted for Trump.
You have to question why that is.

Now if anybody actually wants to help;
[blacklivesmatters.carrd.co]

Your Kids Aren't Too Young to Talk About Race: Resource Roundup:
[www.prettygooddesign.org]

There is a peaceful protest tomorrow 4th June which anyone can participate in from the safety
& comfort of their homes. There's no excuse.
[www.facebook.com]


Heather {The Wingless Bird}



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was june 04, 12:02am by ED Bird.

messageRe: Its a minefield...
Posted by pk June 03, 02:58PM

TheCat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pk Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > TheCat Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I just don't get it.
> > >
> > for once we agree
>
> feel free to actually add something construcive to
> the discussion pk. I know thinking for yourself
> can be really difficult. But im 10% sure you can
> do it.

you've rolled out this type of provocative/ignorant/arrogant/naive/childish rubbish before about race and about gender so i don't believe that someone who thinks that they don't need any education on issues of discrimination really wants to engage in constructive discussion

someone cleverer than you once said something along the lines of: "if you have a critique of our resistance, you better have a record of critiquing our oppression" but for you it seems that you'd rather call of black people and women for not appreciating your 'good' (but ill informed) intentions as a white man

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