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Liberals, Fascists and other things....


TheCat

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In the context of this article below....


https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/09/24/trump-is-now-more-progressive-than-the-left/


...do we need to reassess 'traditional' political terminology? - i.e. Right Wing, Left Wing, Progressive, Liberal, Fascist - in the context of the modern reality we live in....


I think Trump is as odious as the next person....and has said (and done)some horrendous things....but in objectively reading the wording of the comments specifically referenced in the article above, one would surely have to call them 'liberal' views in the traditional understanding of the term....


At the other end of the spectrum, https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-spectator-the-co-op-and-cancel-culture-a-cautionary-tale we have well-meaning/'progressive' Trans-activists, using organised tactics to censor/silence views they disagree with being publically aired. Is that not a core tenent of 'fascism'? in the way we traditionally understand it?



So we have a 'Right Wing' Demagogue expressing traditionally 'Liberal' views....and 'Progressive' activists promoting 'fascism'.....


Is it what's being said that is being misunderstood? or the labels we ascribe to what is said?

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So now you want to play word salad TheCat, pitting the sanitisation of the inroads being made by ideas from the harder right into the mainstream, while in the same breath, drawing analogies between trans activism and fascism? You only have to look at the next post to see what door you are opening. The only question is, are you doing so deliberately?
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Blah Blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> So now you want to play word salad TheCat, pitting

> the sanitisation of the inroads being made by

> ideas from the harder right into the mainstream,

> while in the same breath, drawing analogies

> between trans activism and fascism? You only have

> to look at the next post to see what door you are

> opening. The only question is, are you doing so

> deliberately?


Yes, I have a specific interest in what some call 'culture wars'. So I do deliberately ask these questions, as I am interested in broader perspectives.


I personally would class myself as a traditional liberal, but am increasingly terrified of the direction we are headed - whereby what used to be 'the left' are becoming progressively (no pun intended) intolerant of any view that is not in total agreement with a certain worldview. I acknowledge that these are very emotive topics, but they are of huge significance, so why should they not be open for discussion?


You seem to be suggesting that by asking any questions on these issue, that I must be doing so just to cause trouble? Furthermore, you've gone for the most common tactic of conflating a specific comment with a broader position - you're suggesting that im equating trans-activism with fascism? - when im doing nothing of the sort,a dn its just bad-faith commentary to suggest otherwise. Yes, i've drawn analogies about a specific set of activists methods, who happen to support trans-causes - I disapprove of their methods; and believe that they are trying to stifle debate, and silence views they disagree with. I'll concede that perhaps im being somewhat provocative on this front....but go look up fascism in the dictionary....


If you have something refute the specific instances that I refer to above, then happy to hear your views. If you just want to dismiss me and my comments as the ramblings of some hard-right/gammon/ignorant/regressive, then fine....but if that is the case, thank you for basically reinforcing my broader concerns...

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The thing is everybody these days has an echo chamber - and the Spectator echo chamber say they are going to boycott the co-op and subscriptions increase - I not sure they even shopped there to start with. Meanwhile the Co-Op is quietly continuing it's expansion. The strange thing about spats between people with echo chambers is both sides seem to benefit as they play to their own base.


https://bdaily.co.uk/articles/2020/09/04/co-op-announces-1000-new-jobs-with-50-new-stores-to-open-before-year-end

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JohnL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The thing is everybody these days has an echo

> chamber - and the Spectator echo chamber say they

> are going to boycott the co-op and subscriptions

> increase - I not sure they even shopped there to

> start with. Meanwhile the Co-Op is quietly

> continuing it's expansion. The strange thing

> about spats between people with echo chambers is

> both sides seem to benefit as they play to their

> own base.


Absolutely. And just to reinforce what I said above....my motivation behind starting threads like this is to see if we can get some cross-echo chamber discussion - surely for everyone's mutual benefit?

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Sorry TheCat, but I don't think you are intending for anything of the sort, and on this forum, that is broadly speaking, liberal centrists fending off the likes of uncleglen with his Tommy Robinson book of opinions. It has been done to death on the Brexit threads in fact already. Odd as well, how you are targeting left intolerance when the right are equally guilty of that. Nothing to say about that? It is not the left that are driving the World towards isolationist populism at the moment is it? Let's have a conversation about that instead. About the jingoism of the likes of Farage, that has emboldened racists and thugs. Let's talk about the disregard for law and press and Parliamentary process those populists are displaying, from Trump to Oban, not to mention Boris driving to break an international treaty. Seriously, change the reoord.
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Blah Blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Sorry TheCat, but I don't think you are intending

> for anything of the sort, and on this forum, that

> is broadly speaking, liberal centrists fending off

> the likes of uncleglen with his Tommy Robinson

> book of opinions.


Well I've said what I hope for. You believe I'm lying? That's your prerogative. If you honestly think that by even discussing these issues, we'll suddenly all be inundated with nazis and thugs.....then I recommend you stay away from this thread.


It has been done to death on the

> Brexit threads in fact already.


What has brexit got to do with the topics im raising? Nice shoehorn/distraction/whateboutery


Odd as well, how

> you are targeting left intolerance when the right

> are equally guilty of that. Nothing to say about

> that?


Yes, I am targeting left intolerance. In general, because most people I know are left-leaning, and I am concerned about the direction they are heading with much of the unthinking/intolerant discourse they come out with. Particularly since they would claim to be so tolerant and caring (at least the right wing tw@#s embrace and admit to their intolerance for the most part!). In anycase, if you want to start a thread about right wing intolerance (of which there is indeed plenty)....be my guest....i'll contribute if I have something to say, and I'll try not to interject with various whataboutery like you have on this thread....


It is not the left that are driving the

> World towards isolationist populism at the moment

> is it? Let's have a conversation about that

> instead. About the jingoism of the likes of

> Farage, that has emboldened racists and thugs.

> Let's talk about the disregard for law and press

> and Parliamentary process those populists are

> displaying, from Trump to Oban, not to mention

> Boris driving to break an international treaty.


All fair topics for discussion. As I said, go and start a thread on them if you want to talk about them. As you clearly have nothing of any substance to say on this topic....


8 posts in for the thread, and all you've done if try and have a pop at me/my motivations/my topics.....what was that about changing the record?

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seenbeen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Meanwhile on the ground

>




I'm not sure what happened to the thread about things that cause an irrational rage. Mine is those who post a link but don't comment on that. What is on the ground? Why should I be bothered to look at the link. Why are you so lazy tat you can't add anything to this? Is this the end of society as we know it?


Give Cat credit, he does provoke discussion and doesn't revert to just putting links up. Sorry Cat I am now going to pick up one of your earlier threads.

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malumbu Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> seenbeen Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

>

> Give Cat credit, he does provoke discussion and

> doesn't revert to just putting links up.


Thanks Malumbu. I would have thought my constant engagement after starting a thread (rather than just starting a provocative thread and p!ssing off) was supportive evidence that I want a two way discussion. But I guess not enough evidence for some.

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Blah Blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Sorry TheCat, but I don't think you are intending

> for anything of the sort, and on this forum, that

> is broadly speaking, liberal centrists fending off

> the likes of uncleglen with his Tommy Robinson

> book of opinions. It has been done to death on the

> Brexit threads in fact already. Odd as well, how

> you are targeting left intolerance when the right

> are equally guilty of that. Nothing to say about

> that? It is not the left that are driving the

> World towards isolationist populism at the moment

> is it? Let's have a conversation about that

> instead. About the jingoism of the likes of

> Farage, that has emboldened racists and thugs.

> Let's talk about the disregard for law and press

> and Parliamentary process those populists are

> displaying, from Trump to Oban, not to mention

> Boris driving to break an international treaty.

> Seriously, change the reoord.


You might want to watch Tommy Robinson's address to the Oxford Union to get some actual FACTS about where Mr Yaxley-Lennon is coming from. And it wasn't just happening in Luton.

And as for Nigel Farage encouraging racism- the extremist fanatical muslims (which is the vast majority of them imo as they NEVER seem to really oppose the actions of their cult- see the comments made by the tax-payer grant funded Muslim Council of (once Great) Britain after the Charlie Hebdo murders...)did that all by themselves...9/11, 7/7, etc etc. And those that are not bombers but wield their own brand of jihad/war in the form of grooming.

I was appalled when I mentioned Tommy Robinson to someone I had not seen for a while and who lives in a bubble in Berkshire. The person went purple almost with shock at the mere mention of his name...when I asked do you know anything about him really- the person said only what was in the media and on facebook...says it all really.

The response to this was oh so predictable- and here come the personal insults from the sheeple who really have nothing to say!

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Let's go back to the summer of 2012 Uncle. The UK had showcased itself to the World with one of the Best Olympic, and probably the best Paralympic, Games. The coalition government was relatively benign, in fact there were some good things going on. The word Brexit had not been coined. There was no nutter running the US. We had a Muslim who was a double Gold medal winning runner(and no doubt many other successful Muslim, as well as Christian, other beliefs and atheist successful sports people.


It's been all down hill since. How do you propose we bring the country back together? And please don't use the us and them. There are some great programmes on digital on the rise of the National Socialists. They were very good at us and them, blaming others.


Looking forward to hearing your blueprint.

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Uncle, I think it's reasonable that a a lot of people don't like a lot of what Tommie has said. And by suggesting that he's totally reasonable and well-considered, just turns people off.


I think one of the issues with much of this debate. Is that too many people focus on WHO is saying something, rather then listening to WHAT is being said (I guess this is unfort in keeping with the 'identiarian' shift in the way society seems to think)


So Tommie Robinson and Farage have said many things that many people disagree with. But this of course doesn't mean that EVERYTHING both have said is not worth listening to. Similarly with various divisive leftwing/progressive figures.


We see it in this forum constantly. Someone posts a link to an article or video, and the response is something like "seriously, you're relying on what Joe Boggs is saying??" And instant dismissal- so the source is attacked, rather than actually addressing what is being said on its merits (sounds remarkably like the majority of this thread:)!!)


To go back to my original post, I referenced Trump (bad) saying liberal (good) things; and I mentioned trans-activisits (good) attempting to silence dissenting views (bad).... And it seems the idea that I would question the 'accepted' goodness or badness of people/groups is seen as trouble-making by people who refuse to judge individual comments objectively....

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malumbu Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Let's go back to the summer of 2012 Uncle. The UK

> had showcased itself to the World with one of the

> Best Olympic, and probably the best Paralympic,

> Games. The coalition government was relatively

> benign, in fact there were some good things going

> on. The word Brexit had not been coined. There

> was no nutter running the US. We had a Muslim who

> was a double Gold medal winning runner(and no

> doubt many other successful Muslim, as well as

> Christian, other beliefs and atheist successful

> sports people.

>

> It's been all down hill since. How do you propose

> we bring the country back together? And please

> don't use the us and them. There are some great

> programmes on digital on the rise of the National

> Socialists. They were very good at us and them,

> blaming others.

>

> Looking forward to hearing your blueprint.


Oh yes- the Olympics (didn't interest me- can't stand sport its a waste of space, food and oxygen) what I DO remember was it was just after the disgusting scenes after August 2011...the true face of London

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Sephiroth Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> There is no hope for Glen

>

> Absolutly irredeemable

>

> Not even sure his outbursts today are allowed in

> forum rules tbh. But wherever he lurks, here or

> elsewhere, he will be there spreading his filth

> and poison.



Hope we manage to discover a vaccine for his ignorance.

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Just out of interest what happened in London in August 2011? Oh just Googled it, the riots. So? Not really a defining moment in history.


I laid down the gauntlet of how we get people together. Please do me the courtesy of giving some constructive views.


And to get you into the right mood here is a nice very positive video.


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And there proves my point about this entire thread. Having to converse with people who try to sanitise the politics of people like Tommy Robinson. TheCat knows exactly what he/she is doing.


Uncle, I have watched Tommy's Oxford Union address. I have also watched some of the speeches he gave at EDL rallies, you now, the ones were he threatened to rouse up the English to drive every muslim out of the country, where he baited his followers to go after local muslim councillors and those who work with them. I can also point you to racist tweets that eventually got him banned from Twitter. No-one is fooled by him or any of the far right mouthpieces he openly endorses.


And to you TheCat. You can never bring people on these extremes (of both left and right) in from their irrational extreme thinking. But you already know that didn't you ;)

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"And to you TheCat. You can never bring people on these extremes (of both left and right) in from their irrational extreme thinking. But you already know that didn't you ;)"


Sigh. Think what you like Blah Blah, but I'm afraid you're way off base on this one. Why on this green earth would I purposely want to invite outlandish/irrational/hateful views into a discussion such as this? Surely even you can admit that my history on this forum shows I am keen to have a proper discussion, whether you agree with my views or not is a totally separate issue.


As you yourself pointed out above - this forum is full of 'liberal centrists'...so if some of those people (yourself included) had of actually had a go at discussing the topic raised (sure maybe a prickly discussion), then the occasional snipe from the fringes wouldn't really be much of a concern now would it? I mean this thread had 4 or 5 people who I would have thought might provide some worthwhile discussion on the actual topic, instead just lament how offensive they find UncleGlen...if instead of doing that, had they actually addressed the topic, then no-one would remember this thread for something that uncle glen said!


I refuse to believe that we cant reasonably discuss important cultural/social/political issues without the more extreme views taking over. For example, I would guess that you and I are on slightly different sides of my OP - im sure we could have a (albeit heated) discussion over it (I beleive that was achieved on the BLM/racism thread I started where you were quite active)...but instead we've got a thread of you questioning my choice of topic rather than actually discussing the topic itself!! A shame, I think, that you let fear of random comments from the 'fringes' stifle what could be a reasonable discussion......


If anyone does care to comment and doesn't want to read the OP (seems like this might be a bit too fruity for some!) - in a nutshell - the topic is 'Growing leftwing intolerance and its increasingly pervasive influence on modern society/politics/culture' If you want to discuss another topic, kindly go and find (or create) a thread on that topic....

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Some of us have spent a lot of time trying to engage in sensible discussion around these exact topics with Unclegelen barking the same fringe tripe and never budging an inch. So spare us the pompous lecture. Your final line sums it up exactly. You have no interest in any kind of sensible discussion around polarised intolerance on both ends of the spectrum (the only sensible and genuinely bias free approach to this issue), you just want to have a go at the left. The pretence fools no-one and nor do you get to say who challenges what on your thread.
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Blah Blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Some of us have spent a lot of time trying to

> engage in sensible discussion around these exact

> topics with Unclegelen barking the same fringe

> tripe and never budging an inch. So spare us the

> pompous lecture. Your final line sums it up

> exactly. You have no interest in any kind of

> sensible discussion around polarised intolerance

> on both ends of the spectrum (the only sensible

> and genuinely bias free approach to this issue),

> you just want to have a go at the left. The

> pretence fools no-one and nor do you get to say

> who challenges what on your thread.


As someone who purports to be liberal', your myopia and close-mindedness is quite astonishing, blah blah.


The only pretension here that's fooling no one is your own I'm afraid. I've provided you with ample engagement on this thread to say something (anything?) constructive but you'd prefer to just sit and remain 'above' it all apparently, while at the same time taking pot shots at me personally? (and you have the nerve to call me pompous??....that's a proper laugh my friend)



In anycase, I can think of no greater validation of my original concerns than your clear un-willingness to address any criticism, and clear willingness to name call and muckrake when someone asks questions that you don't really like. So for that, I thankyou.


Have a pleasant evening...I hope the weather is calm inside your bubble....



PS: just case you're confused. I am NOT uncleglen. So I don't really get why you keep using your objections to his posts as a retort to things I have said. I assume it's becuase you don't want to think critically about what's been said, and prefer to smugly roll out old tropes. I may be wrong, but since you don't want to engage, I guess we'll never know.

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And there you go again TheCat with more obfuscation and now you gaslight too! Bravo!


No-one btw thinks you are Uncleglen, so where you pull that from is anyone's guess. But it was entirely predictable that your thread would lead to yet another oft repeated rebuttal of the predictable Tommy Robinson loving Uncle. I'm just not hoodwinked by your attempt at feigned consensus, describing the left as some great threat, while ignoring the obvious lurch towards right wing populism that pervades Western government right now. Trans activists really are the least of our worries when governments led by Trump and Boris, show such little regard for law and the democratic institutions they are supposed to govern. It is not a left wing government in Poland that is fining broadcasters for reporting news it does not like, or that has abolished the independence of the judiciary is it? Just who are you trying to engage with here really?

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diable rouge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Loving the real-time devolution of right-wing man

> in this thread.

>

> Lib Baiter>>>>>>>Rabbit-Hole Alarmist>>>>>>>Racist

> Nutjob...:)


That is what happens when someone tries to argue that we should sanitise our definitions of one side, while further demonising the other. It is basically what the alt right have been doing for the last five years - rebranding opinions that sit on the harder libertarian right as somehow mainstream. Emboldening the genuine racists and spawning a new wave of conspiracy cranks. Q Anon anyone?

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FFS. Have a listen to yourselves DR and Blah Blah...


I'm not raising unreasonable topics.


And all the two of you can do is wax on about 'right-wing man', 'alt-right', 'Tommie robinson', QAnon'....


This is totally preposterous.


I am not hoodwinked by your continued, pathetic attempts at whataboutery. I've openly acknowledged that yes, on this thread I specifically wanted to raise left-wing intolerance...I'm not hiding from that. I don't see what the problem is. But anyway, I'll stop now, as you've successfully managed to 'silence' me and this thread with your ludicrous exaggeration, obfuscation, and strawmen.


So job done for you guys. Any criticism of your mantras doesn't see the light of day, and thankfully you've saved the EDF from a massive wave of Qanon cranks and rascist nutjobs. Thank God you guys are here to tell us all what we should be thinking about or discussing.


By the way?.isn?t it intriguing that you?ve both been positive contributors on two recent threads I started (blah blah on both and DR on one of them), one asking whether this Government?s leadership can handle dissenting voices to sense check their missteps (https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?20,2140935), and another questioning whether Boris is fit to lead the country (https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?20,2114560)...... I mean why didn?t you berate me for not asking whether the Opposition can handle dissenting voices? Or asking whether figures on the left are fit to lead the country?!!!!!.....seems strange, as you guys are you?re so keen on balance, right? Oh?maybe it?s because those threads align with your pre-existing worldview, so you?re happy to engage on those topics?but this thread doesn?t, and asks some uncomfortable questions?...so we?ll just label TheCat a trouble maker and highlight his ?devolution? towards being ?racist nutjob?. Quite hilarious really.

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