Forum Sponsors

www.nannycentral.co.uk

https://urbanistarchitecture.co.uk/free-architect-consultation/

http://www.gardenia-gardens.com

Advertise here

The East Dulwich Forum
Which pubs, bars, restaurants and take-aways do you avoid?
Goto Page: Previous12345678Next
Current Page: 7 of 8
messageRe: Dulwich Estate - fit to run conservation?
Posted by Penguin68 17 July, 2015 17:14

It would probably be unlikely to happen, but a Private Members Bill to reform the Dulwich Estate is long overdue. The 1857 Act took over the Dulwich Estate and another Act of Parliament could do it again.

I think you'll find that you would need a Private Bill (a bill which refers only to a specific set of activities or location(s), and does not have national significance) rather than a Private Members Bill (which, other than being sponsored by an individual member is otherwise, in intent and coverage, no different from a bill put forward as part of government legislation. The 1857 Act referred to would have been initiated as a Private Bill.

messageRe: Dulwich Estate - fit to run conservation?
Posted by DulvilleRes 17 July, 2015 21:32

Qwe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Personally I would like to see a new Dulwich
> College Act redefining the obligations and
> beneficiaries of the Dulwich Estate.
>
> A potted history is that in the early 1600s an
> actor called Alleyn bought quite a bit of land. No
> one really understood where he got the money from.
> Alleyn set up his 'foundation' and later died. His
> descendants were repeatedly accused of not running
> the Estate properly. In about 1857 an Act of
> Parliament took the Estate out of their hands and
> set up the new structure.
>
> I think the world has changed a lot from 1857 and
> it is time to spread the benefit of the Dulwich
> Estate more widely in the community. They have
> benefited hugely from tax allowances and the
> general increase in wealth of the country. All
> they do is sit back and watch their investments
> grow. They did get a setback with the Leasehold
> Reform Act, which forced them to sell freeholds.
>
> It would probably be unlikely to happen, but a
> Private Members Bill to reform the Dulwich Estate
> is long overdue. The 1857 Act took over the
> Dulwich Estate and another Act of Parliament could
> do it again.
>
> I would like the beneficiaries to be local state
> schools in London and the Dulwich Estate to be
> much more accountable to the wider community. It
> is probably unlikely to happen, but I suspect it
> would have a lot support.

This is a brilliant suggestion. Edward Alleyn left his cash for the 'education of 12 poor scholars', which the current regime of the Dulwich Estate has masterfully translated into a well oiled machine giving cash to local private schools, and creating a virtually self contained and largely unaccountable mini industry within our community while doing so. Someone said on this thread that a lot of charities are more akin to businesses than actual charities, and this one in my view takes the biscuit. It would be great to see if there was any legal grounds to challenge their interpretation of their brief.

messageRe: Dulwich Estate - fit to run conservation?
Posted by Qwe 18 July, 2015 13:12

From the 1872 archive of the Spectator:

The fact is, as appears from Alleyn's statutes, that his bene- volence towards the four parishes above mentioned, in respect of education, was limited to providing for three " poore schollers " from each, who were (and are) boarded and clothed, as well as educated. The inhabitants of the manor of Dulwich were to "have their men-children freely taught in the school of the said College, only giving two shillings for every child's admittance, and sixpence a quarter to the schoolmaster towards brooms and rods, and every year at Michaelmas a pound of good candles for the use of the school."All other than the Dulwich boys and the twelve foundationers are with Alleyn " forreyners," and are to pay such sums as the master and warden shall appoint

---

It wasn't just the 12 scholars according to this account. All residents of Dulwich were to have their children freely educated (obviously girls as well as boys would now be included)

If you just considered the 12 scholars - at current rates of say 15K per annum, it would amount to 180K to meet the original terms for the poor scholars. The Estate disburses 5 million per annum.

What happened to the free education for the locals?

Each child at a state school has about 8K spent on them per annum, so 5 million could benefit hundreds of local children in state non-selective schools. There are other options, e.g. extra support for maths and English to get the pass rate higher or grants to local schools for SEN.

The Act in 1857 altered the scheme and I don't see why it should not be examined again 150 years later. There have been huge social changes, and it is unlikely these could have been forseen in 1857. The Estate is much wealthier than could have been envisaged in 1857.

messageRe: Dulwich Estate - fit to run conservation?
Posted by Bicknell 18 July, 2015 18:48

@Qwe @Penguin68 @DulvilleRes So do we have a good lawyer locally who can get this started?

messageRe: Dulwich Estate - fit to run conservation?
Posted by DulvilleRes 18 July, 2015 19:21

Great research Qwe = getting the 1857 Act revisited so that a broader range of local children will benefit, as per Alleyn's original intention, is the way to go.

messageRe: Dulwich Estate - fit to run conservation?
Posted by Penguin68 18 July, 2015 21:58

For those interested - this links [www.parliament.uk] to more about Private Bills - however it would normally be the Dulwich Estate which would sponsor/ initiate this. I cannot imagine there is normally a route for someone else to do so, unless there is clear (there actually isn't here) maladministration. It is worth noting that the various Education Acts offering free education to all children has obviated the need or requirement for the Estate itself to offer free education to local children.

messageRe: Dulwich Estate - fit to run conservation?
Posted by sb 19 July, 2015 08:56

.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2018:07:16:18:16:43 by sb.

messageRe: Dulwich Estate - fit to run conservation?
Posted by Penguin68 19 July, 2015 10:22

I have slightly re-thought my earlier post - as there is an existing Act (the 1857 Act) it would be possible for an MP to propose an amendment to that Act as a further Private Bill; our local MP might ask her party (which does have the right to debating time) to propose debate on such an issue. Although (considering the time is limited) I cannot imagine that her party would give up that time to such a trivial (in the grand scheme of things) cause. However she could at least be consulted as to how such an amendment could be tabled. But I suspect the Charity Commissioners would also have to be party to this.

messageRe: Dulwich Estate - fit to run conservation?
Posted by Qwe 19 July, 2015 13:18

It does appear that the Spectator reference is correct.

The Reports of the Commissioners appointed in pursuance of Acts of Parliament .... Charities and Education (circa 1830) confirms that statute 70 orders that the inhabitants in Dulwich should be educated for 6 pence a quarter and a pound of candles at Michaelmas.

I suspect that if I wandered up to Dulwich College and asked them to educate my child for 6 pence per quarter indexed linked (i.e. £2.40 per quarter in today's money) and a pound of candles I would be shown the door.

The question in my mind is how the implementation of this statute has evolved. Did the 1857 Act alter this?

I'm going to get hold of a copy of the 1857 Act and see if this clarifies the issue.

messageRe: Dulwich Estate - fit to run conservation?
Posted by Otta 19 July, 2015 13:58


messageRe: Dulwich Estate - fit to run conservation?
Posted by Otta 19 July, 2015 13:59

Southwark planning / housing go woth the developers. Who's have thought it?

messageRe: Dulwich Estate - fit to run conservation?
Posted by Tessmo 19 July, 2015 19:01

Just to say thank you @penguin68 @qwe @sb. Let's move this forward.

messageRe: Dulwich Estate - fit to run conservation?
Posted by edhistory 20 July, 2015 09:35

Qwe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I'm going to get hold of a copy of the 1857 Act
> and see if this clarifies the issue.

Copies rarely come up for sale.

Ther is one here:

[www.abebooks.com]

John K

messageRe: Dulwich Estate - fit to run conservation?
Posted by DadOf4 20 July, 2015 09:44

much better thinking on this post over the last few days.

The interesting story here isn't about the redevelopment of a small plot in SE London, its about an organisation that is acting in breach of its initial charter and how locals are campaigning to have their archaic powers removed.

Thats just the sort of pressure needed.

messageRe: Dulwich Estate - fit to run conservation?
Posted by Qwe 20 July, 2015 12:22

Using the info from John K I have found a transcript of the 1857 Act online for anyone who is interested.

[archive.org]

This Act killed the original charter and statutes and set up the basis for the current operation. It was a Private Bill initiated by the Charity Commissioners. It had to be a Private Bill because they completely rewrote Alleyn's original scheme. I think there was a legal doctrine called cy-près which generally prevented diverging from the original terms - so the power of Parliament was required to re-write the Scheme.

Prior to 1857 the original statute was being used to provide some education for people living in Dulwich. In 1841 the Grammar School was opened (presumably the building on Gallery Road).

The 1857 Act killed this completely and gave authority for it to be closed. I think this Act also led to the closure of an infants school.

It appears there were two factions around the time of the 1857 Act - one faction wanted schools for poor scholars and the scheme to be used in that way, another faction wanted a great school to rival the like of Eton and Winchester. From the terms of the Act it seem clear which faction got their way.

I suspect most of this was prompted by the rapidly increasing wealth of the Dulwich Estate due to the arrival of the railways and from prior enclosing of common land.

As population grew the original scheme would have been very valuable to people living in the area covered. It is easy to see that today most of the funds of the Dulwich Estate would have been used for non-selective education of the inhabitants. Alleyn's original scheme did not provide for scholarships for pupils from outside the area, whom he called "foreigners".

It would appear that the 1857 Act would need to be amended by another Private Bill to reclaim more of the Estate funds for the general inhabitants.

messageRe: Dulwich Estate - fit to run conservation?
Posted by DulvilleRes 23 July, 2015 14:28

Agree with broadening out the debate around why we're all contributing like feudal serfs to this archaic charity, which is essentially a self perpetuating privilege machine.

I would favour exploring whether we could get a Parliamentary debate to revisit the 1857 Act - after all, times have changed, and what is happening now is a long way from what Alleyn originally wanted. I'd also favour a campaign to withhold their levy - cash is the only thing that they listen to. Looking at the various people associated with their operation, there are a good many lawyers/ judges (some with interesting provenance), so I suspect it wouldn't be easy. However, they really don't like being in the spotlight, and have had a very easy ride from local people over the last few years.

messageRe: Dulwich Estate - fit to run conservation?
Posted by Bicknell 23 July, 2015 15:26

So do we start by talking to Helen Hayes?

messageRe: Dulwich Estate - fit to run conservation?
Posted by simonethebeaver 23 July, 2015 15:40

I'd contact the person in charge of Private Bills for advice. 020 7219 3250. Private legislation is very complicated, expensive and prolonged. Very rarely carried out these days outside the transport sector.

messageRe: Dulwich Estate - fit to run conservation?
Posted by Qwe 23 July, 2015 16:35

It might be possible that something could be done by the Charity Commission under the Charities Act, without the need for a Private Bill.

I certainly think it would be worth seeking the support of Helen Hayes.

It would also be worth trying to obtain a copy of the original charity commission report, which I'm investigating.

All the papers from the 1857 Act should also be available from the archives.

The argument is simple: in 1857 the new scheme unreasonably removed a very significant portion of the beneficiaries of Alleyn's scheme, as it was written. Over time that 'injustice' has grown because of population growth.

messageRe: Dulwich Estate - fit to run conservation?
Posted by edhistory 23 July, 2015 21:47

Don't spend too much time on the interesting, but obsolete, 1857 Act.

[apps.charitycommission.gov.uk]

A copy of the "SCHEME DATED 31/07/1995 AS AMENDED BY RESOLUTION DATED 08/12/2012" is what is needed.

I don't have a copy.

You could write and ask for one.

John K

messageRe: Dulwich Estate - fit to run conservation?
Posted by DulvilleRes 26 July, 2015 11:15

Possibly something of an aside, but something that has always puzzled me is the insular nature of the Dulwich Estate/ Schools/ Society axis - they seem to operate in a very self contained manner.

Digging around, there seems some evidence of Freemason activity around parts of it. Dulwich College has an openly advertised lodge, recent former pupils at Alleyns report lodge meetings of some kind taking place there, and one of the great and good on one of the various boards/ committees has been 'outed' online - of course, never the most reliable source of evidence. There is no link between impropriety and Freemasonry per se, and no evidence to suggest that any Freemasonry has an influence on how affairs are conducted in Dulwich. However, if is true that the Masonic influence is heavy, it does provide an interesting context. Does anyone know anything more about it?

messageRe: Dulwich Estate - fit to run conservation?
Posted by siouzie14 07 August, 2015 18:17

Ha Ha! Masons! an Axis! Might be overegging the pudding. Masons are a bit old hat! Sounds a bit 1970s/80s. Besides there are many women involved (who can't be Masons). The Chair of the Dulwich Estate Trustees is a woman. A lot of women at the beneficiaries which include 3 girls' schools + Alleyn's. Women are very active at the Dulwich Society too.

There are many networks in the area but across many professions, social groups and interests. Also the beneficiaries include local charities, about 15 elderly residents in the almshouses as well as 4 state schools and a chapel allied to St Barnabas. Estate donations to local independent schools help support scholarships for disadvantaged kids from across London as well as local children. Although Dulwich College is a beneficiary of the Dulwich Estate, it is not part of the Estate but is a separate charity with its own Board of Governors.

messageRe: Dulwich Estate - fit to run conservation?
Posted by vesti 08 August, 2015 08:44

How are 4 state schools beneficiaries?

messageRe: Dulwich Estate - fit to run conservation?
Posted by EDOldie 08 August, 2015 08:58

siouzie14 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Although Dulwich College is a
> beneficiary of the Dulwich Estate, it is not part
> of the Estate but is a separate charity with its
> own Board of Governors.

I think if you look at the list of the Estate Governors there is quite a bit of crossover. i.e. some individuals sit on both the Estate Govs and Dul Coll/Jags or Alleyns Govs.

messageRe: Dulwich Estate - fit to run conservation?
Posted by DulvilleRes 08 August, 2015 14:16

siouzie14

Dulwich Estate are far from the socially diverse charity that your comments imply - 85% of all their donations go directly to the big three private schools of Dulwich College, Alleyns and JAGS. Local state schools, in relation to this, receive a tokenistic amount. As this thread has established, Alleyn's original will was all about subsidising poor and local children, so historically speaking, it should be the other way round. A deft bit of footwork by the Estate to historically translate it into the model it currently operates under, and they pay themselves well to do it. Having worked closely with life saving charities, who rely almost exclusively on volunteers to do their work, the Dulwich Estate in my view looks pretty shabby in comparison.

On the masons, maybe in the interests of transparency in local affairs, anyone involved with the Estate and the beneficiary schools would consider declaring their membership, or otherwise. Or maybe I could join the the local masons to find out, but what might put me off is, unlike trade bodies and local organisations I belong to, is swearing an oath to have my tongue ripped out if I fall out with their agenda. To a degree whether there is masonic influence or not is interesting, and maybe even illuminating, but not the ultimate point. The fact is there is widespread local unease at the insular and many would argue high handed and anti community way in which the Dulwich Estate is currently operating.

messageRe: Dulwich Estate - fit to run conservation?
Posted by Metallic July 07, 03:23PM

Has anyone seen the plans the Dulwich Estate have announced, for West Dulwich and Dulwich village? And the fact there is another shop closure at Herne Hill, following Mimosa now the wine shop has gone. They are trying to make Dulwich Village a food venue that people from outside the area will visit for high end food.

All of a sudden it becomes clear why they have been relatively quiet for a couple of years and have now suddenly exploded with activity. Seen where the Alleyn Park Garden Centre is having to move to as their old site has housing will be built on it?

The CE Simone (whoever)is going to make the place like Borough Market and not a place you could just go to a shop to buy some eggs and a newspaper. At present you need to get the bus or brave being mugged in the park to get to Sainsbury's at the Plough.

messageRe: Dulwich Estate - fit to run conservation?
Posted by nxjen July 07, 05:16PM

“They are trying to make Dulwich Village a food venue that people from outside the area will visit for high end food.”

Really? The proposals can be found here . [www.thedulwichestate.org.uk]

messageRe: Dulwich Estate - fit to run conservation?
Posted by TheArtfulDogger July 07, 05:28PM

Is it such a bad thing ?

At least they have plans for the local retail offering and include parking, more than Southwark council would do !

messageRe: Dulwich Estate - fit to run conservation?
Posted by redjam July 07, 05:41PM

Can't really see anything to get outraged about with these plans - they look pretty good to me.

messageRe: Dulwich Estate - fit to run conservation?
Posted by gkb July 08, 12:52AM

I can't see why anyone would want to live in Dulwich Village now anyway, there is no grocery shop and no newspaper shop. I hope the new butchers survives amongst the dull unimaginative chain shops that keep replacing all the good useful shops that have been forced out by massive rent increases. People have to travel to get a newspaper and basic groceries. Not good if you are elderly and unable to drive! But Dulwich Estate does not appear to care.

Goto Page: Previous12345678Next
Current Page: 7 of 8

Back to top of page
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
Donate                   Terms of use                  Help & FAQs                   Advertise               RSS rss feed               Copyright 2006 - 2018 East Dulwich Forum