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The Bishop, The EDT, The Great Exhibition, the Actress or another?
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messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by mockingbird 13 July, 2015 21:27

There was a grand plan but it might not still be the case. Walked past Townley this eve and there seem to be more extensive works on Calton than I recall in the original consultation. Work underway on the Calton/Townley junction on the playing field side of Calton. I made a mental note to check vs the original consultation diagram.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2015:07:13:21:28:05 by mockingbird.

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by @Woodwarde 14 July, 2015 06:33

Works both side of Calton Ave? Signage perhaps or is it road narrowing.

>Tessmo posted
>Page 16 of this (Townley Road at East Dulwich Grove) seems to be what we need [www.southwark.gov.uk]

Bu nothing visisble on page 16 of the new plan either. It shows only the side of Calton opposite the playing field.

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by wulfhound 14 July, 2015 11:11

Quote:
Works both side of Calton Ave? Signage perhaps or is it road narrowing.

Looks like drainage related. The work on the playing field side is focused on a manhole cover and/or drain grill.

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by first mate 15 July, 2015 12:45

I see James has announced in another section that Harris Primary (old police station) is to start building/demolition early August, so I am wondering if he knows yet what sort of disruption this is likely to bring to that part of LL and surrounding streets? There are extensive roadworks at the junction of Nx and of course all the stuff at Townley etc.. The extensive M&S build right opposite Nx will also begin soon. Townley is to be closed until end August/ Sept and guys on site inferred could be much longer.

How interesting that all these things are to 'kick off' at round about the same time??? It might make sense to stagger them to minimise disruption?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2015:07:15:12:46:40 by first mate.

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by rch 15 July, 2015 13:24

The irony here is that I was awarded a Ł2000 CGS grant last Feb to have a highways engineer perform a study of traffic/pedestrian movements for the junction of Lordship Lane and Whateley Rd, to tie in with the new school, with a view towards recommending improvement measures.

I know this junction well so when I asked people on the forum if they wanted me to put in any specific bids, someone requested this and I did it.

I haven't been assigned a highway engineer yet, it probably won't happen until Sept now, by which time the building works for the school should be in progress, so I'll post an update with a view towards getting general views about this particular situation in relationship to the bigger picture of the surrounding roads.

But it would be so much better if we could get a plan to address the problems and knock-on effects in our defined area rather than these piecemeal projects that someone sitting at a computer in Tooley Street is throwing money at.

--------------------
Robin
Twitter: @ex_cllr_rch

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by rch 15 July, 2015 13:31

In the meantime, I'm keeping my eye on Calton as well... trying to protect trees, that I cited at the very beginning, from being bulldozed.

The one on Green Dale has just had its pit restored (thanks to help from James), so hopefully it won't die, fingers crossed. But the three trees on the Calton buildout are a bit too close to the new cycle path that's being dug for comfort. They could have moved these trees during the dormant season rather than putting them at risk, so it will be interesting to see what happens.

In the meantime, the cyclists are speeding on the pedestrian pavement along the buildout now that the junction is closed, I nearly got hit four times when I was surveying the trees yesterday.

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by first mate 15 July, 2015 13:52

Rch,

Yes, the piecemeal nature of all this is likely, in my humble opinion, to cause chaos before very long. I cannot decide if this is accident or design.

I also fear for the mature tree outside the police station. All it would take is slip of some piece of machinery.

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by rch 15 July, 2015 14:00

I seem to remember that that tree outside the police station is specially conditioned to be protected, so I'll be keeping my eye on that one as well.

In my opinion the piecemeal nature of everything is simply down to a lack of joined-up thinking in the Tooley Street hierarchy.

However, I'm currently in touch with residents around the area who are preparing to launch a campaign for joined-up thinking in traffic flow studies and highway improvement recommendations, so hopefully there will soon be a petition that we can all sign in order to unite to get our views heard.

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by MarkT 15 July, 2015 14:16

first mate, you write:
"The extensive M&S build right opposite Nx will also begin soon."

Do you have actual information on that? Would they proceed according to the permission already received, or on the rather different application still awaiting permission?

[planbuild.southwark.gov.uk:8190]

MarkT

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by @Woodwarde 15 July, 2015 16:42

Has anyone looked at the new plan yet? Page 16 as highlighted below.
It seems that the turn left from Townley is extremely tight still.
Also those experimental cycle bays on Townley have disappeared.


Tessmo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> T....
> But where is the plan?
> Page 16 of this (Townley Road at East Dulwich
> Grove) seems to be what we need
> [www.southwark.gov.uk]
> 58/traffic_orders
>
> Hard to read without expertise. Like posting
> something up in a language no one knows. Anyone
> with any expertise out there? ............etc

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by Tessmo 15 July, 2015 22:46

Which bits are subject to the traffic management orders? Still confused about this. Only the yellow lines and cycle lanes?

That left turn from Townley looks exactly the same to me.

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by first mate 15 July, 2015 23:18

Rch,

Yes it does clearly state in the PA that tree is protected but then 'accidents' happen, don't they.

Great idea about the petition for joined up thinking on traffic and roads, we do need to get a handle in this.

MT, You've got me. I read something somewhere about work beginning on M&S but cannot think where. James Barber will know.

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by Bicknell 18 July, 2015 18:56

@woodwarde
Just looked again at page 16 the plan [www.southwark.gov.uk]. Are ANY of the cycling features still there? Does TfL know how their quarter of a million is being spent?

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by @Woodwarde 18 July, 2015 21:28

Bicknell - this does seem to be an open question and it is not easy to understand what has or has not been approved - let alone what is being built.

Original consultation diagram (ending 12th Dec 2014)
1. Cycle waiting bay on Townley alongside cycle lane, for less confident cyclists to wait for pre-signal operation to allow cyclists to enter junction and turn before general traffic
2. Cycle waiting bay on Green Dale on approach to advanced cycle stop line and cycle pre-signal
3 East Dulwich Grove westbound approach to be changes to a single lane to allow for a cycle lane to be introduced with access to the advanced cycle stop line

Reconsultation ending 13th March 2015 - RHT out of Townley retained
1. Cycle signal gate waiting area on Townley now fully segregated to be protect cyclists from other vehicles. Waiting bay area still present and blended with the main cycle lane - so still allows less confident cyclists to keep left of the more confident cyclists. Proposed signal cycle gate in this area which holds cyclists on a red signal to remove the risk of traffic conflicts.
2. Cycle waiting bay on Green Dale also merged with the main cycle lane but still present and all the features are now the same as 1 above, for Townley.
3 East Dulwich Grove westbound approach to be changed to a single lane to allow for a cycle lane to be introduced with access to the advanced cycle stop line. Same as the first consultation
4. On Townley and Green Dale - two new features in front of the Advanced Cycle lanes - described as 2-stage right turns for cyclists allowing nervous cyclists to be positioned in front of those cyclists in the waiting area. these turns are right at the junction - in both cases in front of the pedestrian crossings. (Copenhagen turns)
5. New semi-segregated cycle lane on Townley to allow cyclists to pass queuing traffic and access the cycle facilities at the end - ie the waiting areas.
6. New cycle lane extension to Calton Avenue introduced with shared pedestrian and cycle area removed and segregated
cycle lane installed.

So quite a set of changes but as we know driven by the TfL funding requirement to deliver cycling benefits. Option 8a - with all these features approved by the DCC in March 2015. The cycling safety features gave some reassurance to cyclists who have been able to use the pedestrian islands as a means of protection by positioning themselves in front of them when making a RHT.
According to the FAQ accompanying the reconsultation,
"8a offers the best benefits for cyclists and pedestrians including building out the footways, installing an advanced cycle early start, signalised cycle gates, two stage right hand turn facilities for cyclists whilst retaining all existing turning movements at the junction.... etc"

According to the DCC March 13th Minutes [moderngov.southwark.gov.uk]
Minutes:
Matt Hill, public realm programme manager introduced the report and responded to questions from the audience.

Members of the community council debated on the proposal and options.

RESOLVED:

That the following traffic proposals referred to as option 8a below be approved in order to improve safety and accessibility for pedestrians and cyclists at the junction of East Dulwich Grove /Townley Road and Green Dale:

Proposals:
- Removal of existing staggered pedestrian crossings with the implementation of shorter, single movement facilities.
- Introduce a diagonal pedestrian crossing to link footways adjacent to both schools and cater for an existing pedestrian desire line.
- All pedestrian facilities to operate at the same time to reduce waiting time for pedestrians and improve the efficiency of the junction.
- Introduce a cycle pre-signal on Townley Road and Green Dale to allow cycles to enter the junction and undertake turning movements before general traffic.
- A new signalised cycle gates on both Townley Road and Green Dale where cyclists are held on a red signal whilst general traffic movements operate.
- This removes the risk of both left hook and right hook collisions. Cyclists will still be allowed to use the general traffic lane to traverse the junction from either Townley Road or Green Dale.
- Semi-segregated cycle lane and advanced cycle waiting area on East Dulwich Grove (westbound) to allow cyclists to bypass waiting vehicles and gain priority at the junction.
- Footway build outs to reduce crossing distances for pedestrians and to visually improve the streetscape.
- A new two stage right turn facilities for cyclists to assist right turning movements into either Townley Road or Green Dale from East Dulwich Grove.
- A new semi-segregated cycle lane is proposed on Townley Road to allow cyclists to safely pass queuing traffic and access the cycle facilities at the unction.
- A new segregated cycle lane is proposed linking Calton Avenue with Townley Road to allow cyclists to bypass the Calton Avenue / Townley Road junction.
- All existing turning movements at the junction are retained, including for coaches. There will be a slight loss of capacity over the existing layout but the junction will continue to operate within acceptable levels of saturation.



The CURRENT build however has never been out for consultation because only the aspects of it that require statutory consultation (permanent TMOs) are given scrutiny.
From the plans made available (page 16) [www.southwark.gov.uk]

From the diagram on Page 16:
1. Cycle signal gate waiting area on Townley is now reduced, so the waiting bay area for less confident cyclists is removed. The proposed signal cycle gate for this area which holds cyclists on a red signal to remove the risk of traffic conflicts - is now removed.
2. Cycle waiting bay on Green Dale - same removal of segregated area and signal gate as in 1 above for Townley.
3 East Dulwich Grove westbound approach to be changes to a single lane to allow for a cycle lane to be introduced with access to the advanced cycle stop line. Appears to be the same as the reconsultation document.
4. On Townley and Green Dale - the two new features in front of the Advanced Cycle lanes - described as 2-stage right turns (Copenhagen turns) for cyclists allowing nervous cyclists some alternative to shielding behind the current pedestrian islands, are not evident any more. They seem to have been removed.
5. New semi-segregated cycle lane on Townley to allow cyclists to pass queuing traffic and access the cycle facilities at the end - ie the waiting areas - this is still present but looks like the armadillos, which ensure separation from traffic, have vanished. Not clear what is happening.
6. New cycle lane extension to Calton Avenue introduced with shared pedestrian and cycle area removed and segregated
cycle lane installed. Still there but how this blends with the main Townley traffic is not clear on this detailed plan (or at least to my eye over it).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was 2015:07:18:21:31:35 by @Woodwarde.

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by Bicknell 18 July, 2015 23:14

@ woodwarde. Thanks for this. So most of the new features that were meant to make the junction safer for cyclists and pedestrians have now disappeared.

This can't be right. Not when you're talking about safety.

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by @Woodwarde 29 July, 2015 18:04

Last day today to reply to the Statutory Consultation.
I have seen some siginicant points raised to Southwark because the detailed scheme is different to the option '8A' that was approved by the DCC and Cllr Mark Williams. These points raise objections to the removal of key cycling safety features and also the further sharpening of the left hand turn from Townley to EDG, increasing the risk to pedestrians and cyclists.

[www.southwark.gov.uk]

6. Persons wishing to object to the proposal, or make any other representations in respect
of it may either use this online form:
[forms.southwark.gov.uk] or send a statement in
writing (in the case of an objection, stating the grounds on which the objection is
made), to: the Traffic orders officer, Public realm projects, Southwark council,
TMO1516-014_PN1.doc
Page 2 of 2
Environment and leisure, P.O. Box 64529, London SE1P 5LX or via e-mail to:
traffic.orders@southwark.gov.uk quoting reference PRP/ND/TMO1516-014, by 30 July
2015

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by Zebedee Tring 29 July, 2015 18:17

Just a small correction - the deadline for replying to the statutory consultation is tomorrow Thursday 30 July.

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by @Woodwarde 08 August, 2015 17:18

Any news on the Townley Statutory consultation TMO yet - is the report available for example?

Also, a new TMO up. Waiting and loading restrictions across a very large number of roads in Southwark but includes Townley, East Dulwich Grove and many roads off Lordship Lane.

[www.southwark.gov.uk]
• Consolidation of waiting and loading restrictions - public notice dated 30 July 2013 (3.36 MB PDF)

EXTRACT: Easier to see on the document but identifies road, area and road restriction to be applied. Example:

Item Number 994.
TOWNLEY ROAD (a) the north and north-east side
(i) between the western kerb-line of Lordship Lane and a point 13.5 metres west of that kerb-line; At any time (ii) between a point 13 metres south-east of the south-eastern kerb-line of the south-easternmost vehicular access to Alleyn’s School and a point 8 metres north-west of the northwesternmost kerb-line of the south-easternmost vehicular access to Alleyn’s School; At any time (iii) between a point 29 metres north-west of the north-western kerb-line of the south-easternmost vehicular access to Alleyn’s School and the south-eastern kerb-line of the northwesternmost vehicular access to Alleyn’s School; At any time (iv) between the south-eastern kerb-line of the northwesternmost vehicular access to Alleyn’s School and a point 44.5 metres south-east of the south-eastern kerb-line of East Dulwich Grove; 8 am to 10 am 3 pm to 5 pm Monday to Friday (v) between the south-eastern kerb-line of East Dulwich Grove and a point 44.5 metres south-east of that kerb-line; At any time (b) the south and south-west side (i) between the western kerb-line of Lordship Lane and a point 11.9 metres west of that kerb-line; At any time (ii) between a point 6 metres east of the north-eastern kerb-line of Beauval Road and a point 1.5 metres west of the southwestern kerb-line of Beauval Road; At any time (iii) between a point 3.5 metres south-east of the south-eastern kerb-line of Dovercourt Road and a point 3 metres northwest of the north-western kerb-line of Dovercourt Road; At any time (iv) between a point 1.5 metres south-east of the north-western boundary of No. 24 Townley Road and a point 67 metres south-east of a point opposite the south-eastern kerb-line of the south-easternmost vehicular access to Alleyn’s School; 8 am to 10 am 3 pm to 5 pm Monday to Friday (v) between a point 7 metres south-east of a point opposite the south-eastern kerb-line of the south-easternmost vehicular access to Alleyn’s School and a point 38.5 metres south-east of the south-eastern kerb-line of East Dulwich Grove; 8 am to 10 am 3 pm to 5 pm Monday to Friday (vi) between the south-eastern kerb-line of East Dulwich Grove and a point 38.5 metres south-east of that kerb-line. At any time

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by first mate 08 August, 2015 21:33

So could our councillors kindly explain when, how and why this lot was decided? It seems to affect many streets and limits parking even further. Am I mistaken in this?

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by edhistory 08 August, 2015 21:45

whoops!

Nicky Costin and Chris Mascord appear to have forgotten to insert a commencement date.

Does this mean the TMO is invalid?

John K

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by mockingbird 09 August, 2015 00:07

John K questioned the absence of a period to comment. Here is the introduction which does seem to prevent a period of comment and simply gives a day's notice of coming into force (31st July)

Is this Southwark policy?

Public notice
Consolidation of waiting and loading restrictions
The London Borough of Southwark (Waiting and loading restrictions) Consolidation Order
30th July 2015

1. NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN that the council of the London Borough of Southwark on
30 July 2015 made the above-mentioned consolidation order under sections 6 and 124
of and Part IV of Schedule 9 to the Road Traffic Regulation Act 19841 as amended,
following the procedure set out in regulation 21 of the Local Authorities’ Traffic Orders
(Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 19962
.
2. This general effect of the order will be to consolidate the provisions of the London
Borough of Southwark (Waiting and loading restrictions) Consolidation Order 2012 with
all subsequent Orders that have amended or applied the provisions of that Order.
3. Copies of the order, which will come into force on 31 July 2015, and of all other relevant
documents, will be available for inspection upon request at Public realm projects -
network development, Southwark council, Environment and leisure, 3rd floor hub 1, 160
Tooley Street, London SE1 2QH. Please telephone 020 7525 2005 or e-mail:-
traffic.orders@southwark.gov.uk for details.
4. Any persons desiring to question the validity of the order or of any provision contained
therein on the grounds that it is not within the relevant powers of the Road Traffic
Regulation Act 1984 or that any of the relevant requirements thereof or of any relevant
regulations made thereunder has not been complied with in relation to the order may,
within six weeks of the date on which the order was made, make application for the
purpose to the High Court.
Dated 30 July 2015
Nicky Costin
Road network and parking business unit manager

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by edhistory 09 August, 2015 00:51

Not the period to comment.

The TMO itself appears to have no commencement date. The spaces for this have been left blank.

John K

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by Zebedee Tring 09 August, 2015 07:42

All Southwark have done is to consolidate a mass of existing traffic restriction Orders into one Order presumably in order to make things clearer. In other words there are no new traffic restrictions being brought into force. The commencement date is 31 July 2015.

However, with their usual efficiency Southwark's website gives the date of the Order as 30 July 2013, not 2015

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by first mate 09 August, 2015 07:45

I will have to check more closely but to me it looked as though new restrictions were being introduced on the road I checked out.

Could James Barber explain these TMOs and what impact, if any, they will have?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2015:08:09:07:57:57 by first mate.

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by Zebedee Tring 09 August, 2015 08:43

On the face of it the Order appears to be simply a Consolidation Order. However, if first mate is right and Southwark have sneakily slipped in some new traffic restrictions, the Order could be challengeable.

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by @Woodwarde 09 August, 2015 10:20

ZT
Consolidation order - how should these work and be interpreted?
If I understand what you are indicating, they are not Consultation documents but an update of a main document that summaries all the parking and waiting restictions for the area. The document would therefore incorporate any changes that had been the subject and passed through a separate TMO process.

So we should be able to identify an earlier TMO that consulted on specific changes.

A consolidation with no highlighting of changes from the previous version does not make this very useful

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by Zebedee Tring 09 August, 2015 11:11

Article 2 of the Order provides "This general effect of the order will be to consolidate the provisions of the London Borough of Southwark (Waiting and loading restrictions) Consolidation Order 2012 with all subsequent Orders that have amended or applied the provisions of that Order."

I agree that without seeing all the previous Orders it would not be possible to establish that the Consolidation Order does not make any changes to what has been in force up to now and has not added any new restrictions. I suppose that Southwark could asked to confirm that this is the case.

Whether it would be worth a lot of extra work to establish this is another matter. So perhaps people might wish to check those parts of the Order that affect roads near them to see whether there have been any changes under the new Order (not a reference to a popular beat combo). If it subsequently turned out that there HAD been unauthorised changes/restrictions on which consultation had not taken place, then this would be a cause for concern, if not potential legal challenge.

Article 4 of the Order provides that anyone wishing to question the validity of the Order or of any provision contained in it on the grounds that it is not within the relevant powers of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 or that any of the relevant requirements of the RTRA or of any relevant regulations made under the RTRA has not been complied with in relation to the Order may, within six weeks of the date on which the Order was made, make an application for the purpose to the High Court.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2015:08:09:11:13:39 by Zebedee Tring.

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by @Woodwarde 09 August, 2015 12:12

ZT - thank you. Got it.

LBS 2012/116 This is the number of the previous version and I can't find a copy online. It would have been simple to compare the new version with the old (by street) to see what had changed since 2012.

If you 'google': LBS 2012/116 southwark, you can see some individual TMOs during 2015 but it is not a comprehensive list before that. It does not include the very extensive consultation on One-Hour parking restriction changes for Shops across Southwark - if you recall the debate about Lordship Lane and Dulwich changes on EDF some time back. Not sure what was approved from that consultation but no doubt any changes from it are in this 2015 consolidation.

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by mockingbird 09 August, 2015 12:21

Good point! See Lordship Lane at page 244.
Does this document exclude anything about the parking bays for Shops and if so, where is that information recorded?

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by rch 10 August, 2015 10:30

Bear in mind that all local TMOs should be approved by the DCC, so it's always worth checking the agenda in advance. It's usually the last item of the evening, so it means hanging around until the end. But if residents don't flag up issues, then cllrs will follow the advice of the highway engineers, which is how a lot of this stuff gets rubber stamped through.

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