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messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by edhistory 06 September, 2015 16:33

This lunchtime a short wheeled base coach driver was trying to turn left from Townley Road into East Dulwich Grove.

He couldn't do it because of the new build-out and the correctly placed car waiting at the red traffic light to continue to Lordship Lane.

Where are the cycle lanes, or even safety features for cyclists?

Is the name of the person who designed the junction known, and, if so does this person have any professional qualifications?

John K

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by Tessmo 06 September, 2015 17:49

If Council officer Matt Hill is going to answer questions at the Dulwich Community Council meeting this Wednesday 9 September (agenda below), I think we should all try to go to see if we can make sense of what he says.

[moderngov.southwark.gov.uk]

The cycle features on the plan approved by councillors in March are nowhere to be seen. Some may be added later. Some won't be. Is what's there now safe for cyclists?

The Traffic Management Order talks about a mandatory cycle lane, which is definitely not there at the moment. Shouldn't a TMO apply to what's there rather than what was on the plan or might be there in the future?

Have safety audits been done on what's actually been built?

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by Zebedee Tring 06 September, 2015 20:18

Just as importantly Matt H should be quizzed about the apparent difficulty for coaches in turning left into EDG. He should not be allowed to suggest that the solution to this problem is a right turn ban.

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by Joe Millis 06 September, 2015 20:38

Can anyone tell me whether the coaches that ferry pupils from Alleyns to Dulwich College are still able to turn into Turney Road/Calton Avenue? They are a blight and make crossing the road difficult for Dulwich kids walking to local schools

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by edhistory 06 September, 2015 20:57

Perhaps Clarke's will buy a new fleet of short coaches:

[www.clarkescoaches.co.uk]

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by Joe Millis 06 September, 2015 21:09

Would that it were only Clarke's. There's one company that takes double-deckers down Calton Avenue.

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by Helga Hughes 07 September, 2015 02:14

I have read most of the comments on this subject and have not learned much. Is it about "safety for the Cyclist" and/or
the "laid-on Buses" collecting our school children from JAGS? I am all for Safety and agree with the many Bumps (sleeping Policeman)and the recently introduced restriction 20mph in and around the Dulwich area. I truly believe that
is "Safety" for all. Why spend all this money and where does this money comes from? Yes, it is vital that our Roads and
Foot-Pathes are in good order to avoid accidents. Otherwise 'do not fix what is not broke'.
Is there a guarantee after having invested this vast amount of money, that it will indeed be an improvement to the
Junction as mentioned above??? What if it was bad planning and all that money was spent. What then?

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by Penguin68 07 September, 2015 14:57

It is worthwhile perhaps noting that this whole mess (now abandoned cycling improvement notwithstanding) was mainly started in order to 'improve' conditions for those travelling to and from the two schools (Alleyn's and Jags) - thus impacting approximately one hour a day of usage - weekdays only, school time only - or approximately 210 hours a year - which were also the hours when this junction was 'traffic awkward'. At other times it offered no general problems.

The fact that the coaches serving the schools are now hugely adversely impacted (i.e. turning circles) with the impact on other traffic and particularly cyclists, that (by report) the diagonal chosen for pedestrian crossing ins't the one that pedestrians actually choose to use and that normal traffic is now travelling more slowly and (for cyclists at least) apparently more dangerously does suggest that, were this not something undertaken by a 'public' (and hence, in reality, unaccountable body) then people would lose their jobs. If I had agreed a project with employers, and then done something entirely different, my feet wouldn't have touched...

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by wulfhound 07 September, 2015 14:59

Quote:
The cycle features on the plan approved by councillors in March are nowhere to be seen. Some may be added later. Some won't be. Is what's there now safe for cyclists?

At the moment - not much better than before, not much worse than before, lousy way to spend £250k of cycling budget if that's where the money came from.
Quote:
I see that the cycle lanes are not mandatory ones - which is what the scheme proposed. They are broken lines rather than solid lines. Does this make much difference for cyclists generally?

If I remember right, the scheme proposed "light segregation", sometimes known as armadillos. They're big rubber lumps about eight inches long by four high that are glued or bolted down on to the white line. Like a rumble strip but chunkier. Painted mandatory cycle lanes help a bit, but as with unenforced traffic laws in general, it comes down to respect or a lack thereof. A mandatory lane with light segregation, which physically prevents or makes it difficult for traffic to intrude on to the cycle lane, is the ideal here.
Quote:
The pavement area still seems to be shared pedestrian/cyclist use which I thought was to end with the new cycle lane.

Indeed. I wonder if they just haven't got the additional legislative things through to de-designate the pavement for cycling & designate the cycle lane as mandatory, which would then perhaps allow for the installation of the armadillos per the original. If the TMO was Sep 1st, they couldn't (at least, shouldn't) start construction on that lot until after it was signed off.

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by sandyman 07 September, 2015 15:36

I've just driven from Townley Road left onto EDG and it's harder and tighter for a car to turn left, never mind a coach. There is a left turn from New Cross Road into Pomeroy Street which is nowhere near as sharp and has been made no left turn in recent years. Who makes these decisions?

Also as a pedestrian surely it would be more assuring to have the islands in the middle of each crossing. Why have they gone?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2015:09:07:15:37:19 by sandyman.

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by fazer71 07 September, 2015 16:36

Lol the funniest thread of the year... Lol

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by carolb 07 September, 2015 16:49

I have not driven or cycled at this junction recently so cannot comment on this particular junction - this is a general comment about these narrow roads and consequent tight turns.

I find tight left turns are a complete nightmare because any vehicle which is longer than a hatch back ends up going over the middle white lines of the road that they are turning into. (Either that or they drive over the corner of the pavement.) I encounter one on my cycle route to work where I have to turn right into the road that the vehicle is emerging from turning left – very scary if you have positioned yourself for your right turn only to see a vehicle approach the junction and you know it is going to have to come out into your path. You can be decked out like a Christmas tree and still not be seen in such a situation.

And while I am at it – related topic ….. there is another right turn on my cycle route to work where I used to feel quite comfortable waiting in the middle of the road for a gap in the oncoming traffic to do my right turn ………. until Southwark narrowed the road. Now I am too scared to wait in the middle of the road because the traffic on my left passes too close so I get off the bike and cross on foot at the nearby crossing. Another example, I used to feel comfortable cycling into Peckham (I’m referring to the stretch of road from the East Dulwich Road/Peckham Rye junction heading towards Peckham) – again until Southwark narrowed the road. Since the road was narrowed the traffic is passing much closer (it’s not going any slower) – it feels more dangerous.

I don’t understand why Southwark are narrowing all these roads. As a cyclist it has not made me feel safer. For drivers it causes unnecessary hold ups as a vehicle with a long wheel base has to wait for a gap in both directions before executing a left turn. I can’t see the benefit of this endless tinkering …… and it must be costing a fortune. There seems to be an endless supply of money for road changes of dubious benefit while at the same time we have talk of cuts to front-line services such as discontinuing food recycling bags and charging for waste collections.

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by spider69 07 September, 2015 17:12

Its part of a plan to drive motorists off the road by Southwark Labour.

As soon as a hair brained plan is suggested both the Council and Cllrs embrace it 100% if it effects drivers.

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by hopskip 07 September, 2015 17:19

wulfhound Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Indeed. I wonder if they just haven't got the
> additional legislative things through to
> de-designate the pavement for cycling & designate
> the cycle lane as mandatory, which would then
> perhaps allow for the installation of the
> armadillos per the original. If the TMO was Sep
> 1st, they couldn't (at least, shouldn't) start
> construction on that lot until after it was signed
> off.


Don't think so. The week before Matt Hill issued a letter to to the schools referencing technical and legislative challenges. This combined with a TMO for 'mandatory' cycle lanes sounds very muddled. Certainly not clear how Southark can sign this junction off as approved by the Statutory consultees as safe.

Southwark's explanation at the DCC this Weds evening should be well worth hearing and should be questioned carefully. No doubt it will be indicative of issues yet to happen over the Quietways.

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by spider69 07 September, 2015 17:36

Postcode: Name
Which of these is the most common way you travel on Champion Hill?
Walking / Scooting /Cycling/Driving Other:
How would you rate your experience of using Champion Hill?
(1 = Very bad and 5 = Very Good) 1 2 3 4 5
Do you agree or disagree with the following statements about Champion Hill?
Agree Disagree Not Sure
Traffic is too fast
There is too much traffic
Road safety is an issue
The route is easy to cycle
The route is easy to walk
Are there any parts of
Champion Hill that you find
particularly uncomfortable to use?
(Safety/convenience/comfort)
Do you have any thoughts on how
these issues could be improved?
Do you think a road closure on
Champion Hill at the junction with
Dog Kennel Hill is a good idea?
Yes No Not sure
Or a one-way system for
southbound vehicle traffic (two-way
for cyclists) between Denmark Hill
and the raised junction on Champion
Hill?
Yes No Not sure
What three words would you use to
describe using Champion Hill?
If you can’t attend a drop-in have your say about
Champion Hill by filling out our survey
Please fill out the survey by 31st Aug and return to us in the enclosed

The above is a consultation which was not widely shared. I did not get it. It refers to quiet ways and traffic.

All roads seem to be under attack. One thing is for sure if people do not comment it will happen. If your Cllrs is pro do not expect any help

Having lived on and around Champion Hill for the last 69 years I fail to see why this scheme should ever see the light of day. It works well and always has done in my lifetime.

Why should all these new changes suddenly be desired They have put in pinched points and again closing off the road is. there. Melbourne Grove any one. Its these changes that have caused all the problems.

Every where you turn green behind the ears planners know better than residents.Looks good on paper with a red felt pen line.

God knows where they think the traffic will be diverted to.

Change for the sake of change.

How come past generations seemed to manage.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was 2015:09:07:17:57:02 by spider69.

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by edhistory 07 September, 2015 18:13

spider69 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Postcode: Name
> Which of these is the most common way you travel
> on Champion Hill?
[...]
> The above is a consultation which was not widely shared. I did not get it. It refers to quiet ways and traffic.

Does Mr James Barber still live on Champion Hill?

John K

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by @Woodwarde 07 September, 2015 18:15

Spider69
Exactly the same wording for all the Quietways. One just happening now for Calton Avenue and Turney Road. See separate thread. Leading questions with huge potential for the answers to be interpreted to suit.

Hence importance of understanding Southwark’s process.

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by Curmudgeon 07 September, 2015 19:05

I don't understand what has changed apart from the diagonal pedestrian crossing and a bugger of a left hand turn that makes it more dangerous for cyclists rather than less unless they are supposed to go on the pavement to go left

The school kids aren't even using the diagonal crossing as far as I can see

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by edhistory 07 September, 2015 19:35

> I don't understand what has changed

F.M.Conway is richer.

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by fazer71 07 September, 2015 21:34

^ this is exactly what has changed oh and a few road "specialists" at Southwark have another 12 months work.

Socialism in action.

££££££££££££££££££££%% wasted ..

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by Townleygreen 07 September, 2015 21:46

I understood that the point of changing this junction was to allow the Quietway - which runs from the Elephant to Crystal Palace - to be developed. If the cycling element has been removed, where does that leave the Q-way?

(a Q-way is meant to be a road where cycling and walking is relatively protected from motor traffic, to encourage children and older people and women more generally to cycle safely. those groups are currently under-represented on our streets apparently.)

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by Bicknell 08 September, 2015 11:27

Curmudgeon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't understand what has changed apart from the
> diagonal pedestrian crossing and a bugger of a
> left hand turn that makes it more dangerous for
> cyclists rather than less unless they are supposed
> to go on the pavement to go left
>
> The school kids aren't even using the diagonal
> crossing as far as I can see


Agree.

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by wulfhound 08 September, 2015 12:01

Quote:
I understood that the point of changing this junction was to allow the Quietway - which runs from the Elephant to Crystal Palace - to be developed. If the cycling element has been removed, where does that leave the Q-way?

A very good question. I am a huge fan of the idea of Greenways and, to an extent, Quietways, but the planning and implementation has been far from ideal. No discussion or debate of what's going on and whether it's a good thing for London as a whole before they started parachuting in to neighbourhoods with design ideas.

It seems there's little in the way of minimum standards for a Quietway - at its most basic, it can be nothing more than signs and paint, like the old LCN - so the lack of facilities doesn't necessarily change the Quietway status, it just makes it less accessible and useful. Some of the proposed Quietways in Kensington and Westminster (ok, so "quiet" is always going to be relative there) are entirely useless.
Quote:
(a Q-way is meant to be a road where cycling and walking is relatively protected from motor traffic, to encourage children and older people and women more generally to cycle safely. those groups are currently under-represented on our streets apparently.)

No doubt they are under represented - but actually getting any TfL, council or Sustrans official to put their head above the parapet & declare that Quietways must be usable by children and older people seems to be difficult. Whether this is a result of a lack of minimum standards, or its cause, I don't know. Bit of both perhaps.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2015:09:08:12:02:39 by wulfhound.

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by James Barber 08 September, 2015 12:31

Hi wulfhound,
At a quiet ways meeting I asked if they had the aspiration that the London Cycle Network originally had of cycle routes safe for unescorted 12 years olds. They don't. They should have such an aspiration if we're to collectively try to stem global warming. But they don't. Appears targeted at nervous adults - which is a useful start.

--------------------
Regards jamesvbarber@gmail.com
former Liberal Democrat Councillor for East Dulwich Ward (2006-2018)
[www.jamesbarber.org.uk]
[twitter.com]

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by Penguin68 08 September, 2015 12:52

if we're to collectively try to stem global warming

There are two issues - those of cyclists' safety and impact on climate - I suspect that the carbon cost of all the work that has gone on to create cycle roads in town (including the traffic hold-ups etc. etc.) will require a huge amount of cycling replacing motorised transport to even reach neutrality.

You need to look at the whole carbon cost (if you care about these things) not just the headlines. BT, in a study done a number of years ago, determined that teleconferencing was carbon positive compared with travelling to meetings, but not nearly as much as you would initially have thought, once you costed in the carbon costs of the technology needed to support teleconferencing - from power to terminal equipment to transmission and switching equipment etc. etc.

Cycling (the process) may be more carbon friendly than motor powered transport - but do not think that cycles, cycle clothing and (very specifically) cycle specific infrastructure does not have a carbon cost. Where this infrastructure causes motor vehicles to drive inefficiently, including lengthening driving or waiting times these are additional carbon costs which can be attributed to cycles.

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by xeno.be 08 September, 2015 13:45

I've reserved judgement for a few days but have had time to conclude the new layout is a disaster. The junction is much worse for those on bicycles. It will be criminal if any cycling budget has been spent on this work as the only way it will benefit safety is by discouraging anyone from getting on a bike.
Cars turning right from Townley Road can now just start turning much earlier. Riding the other way you have no idea which path any vehicle will take, the new layout definitely encourages the first car to race across to beat oncoming traffic.
Advanced cycle lights might improve this for those waiting at the lights when they change, but does nothing for those who arrive when the lights are green.
Really unbelievable.

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by wulfhound 08 September, 2015 15:53

Quote:
There are two issues - those of cyclists' safety and impact on climate - I suspect that the carbon cost of all the work that has gone on to create cycle roads in town (including the traffic hold-ups etc. etc.) will require a huge amount of cycling replacing motorised transport to even reach neutrality.

A fair point - but in the overall scheme of urban quality-of-life, of the benefits resulting from more cycling & fewer cars on the road, carbon's not the most important piece of the puzzle IMO. If we're talking in pure carbon terms, going vegetarian / vegan, eschewing air travel & cutting back home energy consumption to the bare minimum might make as much difference. Certainly as a regular cyclist, occasional driver, annual long haul flyer & unreformed carnivore, my own co2 footprint isn't markedly different to a non-flying veggie who drives a few times a week.
Quote:
Cycling (the process) may be more carbon friendly than motor powered transport - but do not think that cycles, cycle clothing and (very specifically) cycle specific infrastructure does not have a carbon cost.

Nor does that same infrastructure for general traffic. Assuming the vehicle lifespan is the same, how does a steel framed bicycle weighing 15kg stack up against a 1.5 ton Golf? Not that the former can do all the jobs of the latter - but surely that's an argument for shared-ownership ZipCar schemes and the like. Road wear, maintenance & surface renewal.. yes, those roads need to be maintained anyway for goods vehicles, but discretionary & local trips account for a fair bit of the wear.
Quote:
Where this infrastructure causes motor vehicles to drive inefficiently, including lengthening driving or waiting times these are additional carbon costs which can be attributed to cycles.

Again, I'm not sure if that's true of discretionary journeys. When applied to essential traffic, your argument makes complete sense - but the same could be said (to a far greater degree, I might add) of discretionary or substitutable motor traffic delaying essential motor traffic.

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by Gabe 08 September, 2015 16:20

I've been through on the bike a few times since it re-opened. It's not much different. It's tempting to blame the bed-wetters on here for the compromised design, and then Southwark Council for listening to them. But I suspect the major problem, and the reason the cycling safety aspects have gone missing, is TFL.

Still, hopefully it's nicer for pedestrians. There seem to be less railings to hem everyone in.

There's a good example of what I think might be a Quiet Way running along the north of Old Kent Road to Deptford. Quite a bit of it is on normal roads, but with bollards at certain points to restrict through traffic for cars, but keep it open for cyclists. It's really well done (for the most part) and I'm happy riding along there with my kids. So clearly it can be done in Southwark.

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by Penguin68 08 September, 2015 16:37

Dear wulfhound - the points I was making were specifically in response to Mr Barber's assertion/ implication that the London Cycle Network's point was to fight anthopogenic global warming. I must admit I see it as more important to allow the safe(r) use of bicycles and to encourage people thus to use bicycles - the greatest impact I believe being on their own health - with, I suspect, virtually no measurable impact on either CO2 or world temperatures. Most of those I know who cycle regularly (children apart) do so instead of using public transport, which itself continues to run whether very very full or just very full in rush hours. [Some may cycle rather than drive to stations, in which case their saved car journeys are relatively moderate].

messageRe: Consultation on ‘improving’ the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale
Posted by Curmudgeon 08 September, 2015 17:41

I'd like to know the councils response to how dangerous this junction now feels compared to before the work

Turning left is seriously hazardous due to the angle

I'm pretty sure the coaches employed to ferry the private school kids are going to cause snarl-ups and traffic jams and more danger for pedestrians and cyclists as they attempt that left hand turn

Turning right looks more, not less, safe for pedestrians and cyclists

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