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messageRe: Aircraft noise -
Posted by bobbsy 26 October, 2016 16:15

Completely agree on the police helicopters too - those i cannot ignore

messageRe: Aircraft noise -
Posted by pop9770 26 October, 2016 16:38

There may be an explanation.

With hearing women when compared to men have been shown to have heightened hearing sensitivity some men have evolved to hear more than other similar to women in hearing ability and having a better sense of spatial awareness geometry ballistics an ability to concentrate their attention on the task at hand to the exclusion of distractions, evolved to survive over many thousands of years ,,, itís an important factor if say they pickup on an annoying sound it dominates the attention or say a nasty smell it could make them feel sick whilst for others itís not a problem.

Maybe if youíre descended from a gene pool that required high levels of hearing like hunters or warriors having evolved for survival, that would explain why individuals hear different sounds at different levels, why to some the pitch resonance and level of sound differs in intensity and levels of annoyance, why for some itís not a problem but to others itís a living hell.

If you are descended from farmers or fishermen you have less need for those particularly heightened senses youíll be good at digging, have a strong back but not require the best hearing eye sight but have a great sense of smell.

Who knows we are all different I accept some just donít hear so they are not affected, whilst others are driven mad as I am.

Itís impossible to have sympathy for those who donít have a problem thereís no logic in that, so if someone has a problem and you donít sympathise thatís fine but thereís no need to tell them you donít have a problem unless youíre looking for sympathy which you wouldnít be that makes no sense Ďíunless you had a strange logic,,, so you can only be presumed to be looking for something else?

messageRe: Aircraft noise -
Posted by TheArtfulDogger 26 October, 2016 18:37

So reading into your post pop/Fazer you are saying that your ancestors developed a high level of hearing specifically to hear Pterodactyls flying overhead at 5am and as a result thousands of years later you wake up in fear when a Boeing 747 goes overhead

Wow I can see now how special you are now 🤔

--------------------
Artful

messageRe: Aircraft noise -
Posted by pop9770 26 October, 2016 22:03

TheArtfulDogger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Wow I can see now how special you are now
> 🤔

Thanks
Yes we're all special in our own way some have their downside at 4.30am .

messageRe: Aircraft noise -
Posted by rendelharris 26 October, 2016 23:00

pop9770 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There may be an explanation.
>
> With hearing women when compared to men have been
> shown to have heightened hearing sensitivity some
> men have evolved to hear more than other similar
> to women in hearing ability and having a better
> sense of spatial awareness geometry ballistics an
> ability to concentrate their attention on the task
> at hand to the exclusion of distractions, evolved
> to survive over many thousands of years ,,, itís
> an important factor if say they pickup on an
> annoying sound it dominates the attention or say a
> nasty smell it could make them feel sick whilst
> for others itís not a problem.
>
> Maybe if youíre descended from a gene pool that
> required high levels of hearing like hunters or
> warriors having evolved for survival, that would
> explain why individuals hear different sounds at
> different levels, why to some the pitch resonance
> and level of sound differs in intensity and levels
> of annoyance, why for some itís not a problem but
> to others itís a living hell.
>
> If you are descended from farmers or fishermen you
> have less need for those particularly heightened
> senses youíll be good at digging, have a strong
> back but not require the best hearing eye sight
> but have a great sense of smell.
>
> Who knows we are all different I accept some just
> donít hear so they are not affected, whilst others
> are driven mad as I am.
>
> Itís impossible to have sympathy for those who
> donít have a problem thereís no logic in that, so
> if someone has a problem and you donít sympathise
> thatís fine but thereís no need to tell them you
> donít have a problem unless youíre looking for
> sympathy which you wouldnít be that makes no sense
> Ďíunless you had a strange logic,,, so you can
> only be presumed to be looking for something else?

That is most splendidly bonkers pop/fazer, I tip my hat to you!

messageRe: Aircraft noise -
Posted by hpsaucey 27 October, 2016 00:02

TheArtfulDogger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So reading into your post pop/Fazer you are saying
> that your ancestors developed a high level of
> hearing specifically to hear Pterodactyls flying
> overhead at 5am and as a result thousands of years
> later you wake up in fear when a Boeing 747 goes
> overhead
>
> Wow I can see now how special you are now
> 🤔

Erm - disingenuous post. There is research to show for example that hearing in children can vary on a daily basis, that women during pregnancy can develop a sensitivity to noise (perhaps related to stress, hormones, exhaustion after birth etc) and a fairly common incidence of hyperacusis.

(General rant here not aimed at ArtfulDogger)Multiple reasons why someone might be more affected than someone else before you even get to the flight path, height etc. You can bat back and forth being affected or not till the cows come home and that's pretty much how this thread has gone - but you cannot tell someone else that they're not affected by it because you are not them. Great if you're not, sorry for you if you are. End of story.

HP

messageRe: Aircraft noise -
Posted by toto 28 October, 2016 07:14

edcam Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pop9770 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Edcam
> >
> > Have you not noticed the difference this
> morning?
> >
> > No noise
> >
> >
> > I think you are making assumptions ..
>
>
> Nope. No difference.

And how about this morning ? Come on ! You must be deaf !

messageRe: Aircraft noise -
Posted by bobbsy 28 October, 2016 12:32

This morning, 5.30 onwards, was loud.

messageRe: Aircraft noise -
Posted by edcam 28 October, 2016 13:36

toto Wrote:

>
> And how about this morning ? Come on ! You must be
> deaf !

Interesting that those who complain the most about the aircraft noise seem to think it's ok to insult those who aren't bothered by it. Don't you realise that it's 2016? It's no longer funny or acceptable to use disability as an insult.

Interesting correlation here though.

messageRe: Aircraft noise -
Posted by pop9770 28 October, 2016 13:47

bobbsy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This morning, 5.30 onwards, was loud.


Yes it was terrible this morning. I had the same issues and sympathise with you it's a nightmare.

Take no notice of edcam and a few others trying to close your / my conversation down.
Apparently he lives in Camberwell so what he's doing on the ED forum is a mystery also his hearing is as you have noted not like yours or mine it's special.

Let's keep helping each other to vent our valid individual frustrations.

Hopefully the wind will blow the opposite way for the weekend when most of us want to sleep late ..

messageRe: Aircraft noise -
Posted by Elphinstone's Army 28 October, 2016 15:44

I feel this is an utterly disingenuous post disregarding an expostulation as a figure of speech.


It is possible to hear high pitched sounds, eg to be able to tell who
has their tv on, whilst walking past houses. Also, young people have more acute hearing
faculties than us oldies, hearing naturally deteriorates with age.

If you loved in the country you would no doubt be wakened by birdsong, which can
be annoying, gun dogs barking, tractors, church bells, all loud sounds we can familiarise
ourselves with and likewise, in the city, traffic, foxes, late night carousers, dustbin men, early morning car doors,
which do not bother us at all, as they are non threatening : proven by babies and young children sleeping through
familiar noise and sounds, unless a door slams suddenly perhaps, when a baby or young child will start, and cry,
a fearful alert.

however,
it is the PITCH of the engine noise which is
so disturbing, as though it was about to land on LL (or my roof), ergo, what the sensitive
to noise contingent are experiencing is the 'start and alert' phenomenon, albeit with curses rather than crying. Although I might try sobbing, perhaps it will help.


Edited for too many typos, and to remove last repeated paragraph





edcam Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> toto Wrote:
>
> >
> > And how about this morning ? Come on ! You must
> be
> > deaf !
>
> Interesting that those who complain the most about
the aircraft noise seem to think it's ok to insult
> those who aren't bothered by it. Don't you
> realise that it's 2016? It's no longer funny or
> acceptable to use disability as an insult.
>
> Interesting correlation here though.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2016:10:28:22:02:37 by Elphinstone's Army.

messageRe: Aircraft noise -
Posted by edcam 28 October, 2016 19:56

Elphinstone's Army Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> utterly disingenuous post totally disregarding an
> expostulation as a figure of speech.

Figures of speech and their acceptability change over time. I have two deaf friends who find this sort of thing offensive. Their opinion on this subject is much more important to me than anybody else's.

messageRe: Aircraft noise -
Posted by KirstyH 29 October, 2016 12:17

Coming in to this conversation late re LHR (not read the other 17 pages) I'd note this on noise sensitivity - those that self-describe as noise sensitive know what they mean and can have conversations about it. Those that don't might have no idea what is being talked about (and may be prone to saying it doesn't exist). I think if noise was coloured or smelled like cigarette smoke you'd be able to have better conversations about it.

I think there must be a spectrum of how much stress noise causes. At one end one supermarket has an hour a week for autistic people - no music, range of other noise stimulants turned off/down. I'd personally much rather be in that environment, no pounding music, relentless aural adverts etc. There was also a news story about blood pressure and car noise last week.

Obviously you work around it, but the prospect of greater aircraft density is a real concern. Moving down here from Nth London a decade ago, I was gob-smacked at the aircraft noise. I can't work out when the week that you're supposed to have some respite is, I wish they'd publish it, like tide-tables.

messageRe: Aircraft noise -
Posted by lbsmith73 29 October, 2016 14:24

bored with this thread get some ear plugs!

messageRe: Aircraft noise -
Posted by Elphinstone's Army 29 October, 2016 15:36

KirstyH, thoughtful, perceptive post, thank you, followed by a not so perceptive post, proving your point precisely .

messageRe: Aircraft noise -
Posted by fabfor 29 October, 2016 17:13

Heathrow overvalued by £86bn

Buried government figures reveal benefit to economy was vastly exaggerated

Graeme Paton, Transport Correspondent | Alistair Osborne
October 27 2016, 12:01am, The Times

Building an extra runway at Gatwick airport would bring similar benefits to expanding Heathrow
GETTY IMAGES
The economic benefits of expanding Heathrow airport were overstated by up to £86 billion, buried government figures reveal.

Building an extra runway at Gatwick airport would bring virtually the same benefits to the nation as expanding Heathrow, the figures suggest.

Questions were raised over Theresa Mayís endorsement of Heathrow after a Department for Transport report more than halved previous estimates for the size of the economic boost to be provided by Heathrow over 60 years.

The government analysis indicated that expanding Gatwick would yield £54 billion in economic benefits ó marginally less than the £61 billion attributed to Heathrow ó ...

messageRe: Aircraft noise -
Posted by EDOldie 29 August, 2017 16:53

I thought it was very noisy over the bank holiday weekend. Have the flight paths moved again? There seemed to be a lot of low flying aircraft at very regular intervals.

messageRe: Aircraft noise -
Posted by klove 29 August, 2017 20:23

The flight paths vary slightly according to wind direction and if it's westerlies we don't get them over us at all (only about 25% of the time though.)

[www.heathrow.com]

You can complain to Heathrow on above URL ... probably makes no real difference but at least it goes on their stats.

messageRe: Aircraft noise -
Posted by toto 30 August, 2017 09:40

klove Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The flight paths vary slightly according to wind
> direction and if it's westerlies we don't get them
> over us at all (only about 25% of the time
> though.)


I thought it was with EASTerly winds that we didn't hear airplanes so much...

messageRe: Aircraft noise -
Posted by kford 30 August, 2017 10:16

I heard the planes this morning, as usual, and thought this thread would open again. It's because of the wind and cloud cover.

messageRe: Aircraft noise -
Posted by lavender27 30 August, 2017 13:02

I complained about the aircraft noise about 20 years ago and the man at the end of the phone said he'd never heard anything like it regarding aircraft noise. No one ever listens to me, why should they, I"m only the Queen.

messageRe: Aircraft noise -
Posted by RobMiller 01 September, 2017 08:50

There's a Civil Aviation Authority consultation on aviation noise impact here: [consultations.caa.co.uk]. I've filled that in and have also written to Helen Hayes to ask whether she is working with other MPs in areas affected by flight paths to lobby government about this.

I'm strongly of the view that the noise from flights into Heathrow and City has become much worse in recent years. Apart from the occasional week when Easterly winds mean the flightpath reverses, the flights are incessant (I took this set of photos in a ten minute period a few weeks ago: [bit.ly]). I think that the concentration of the flightpath (so aircraft are flying on a tighter route) might be part of the issue.

Maybe it depends on individuals' sensitivity to noise or how close your home is to the flightpath, but personally I find the persistence really annoying. While I understand that the planes do need to land, I'm not clear why the flightpath can't be varied from week to week to provide some respite... sad smiley

messageRe: Aircraft noise -
Posted by i*Rate 05 September, 2017 11:59

RobMillar,

I wrote to Helen Hayes, Boris Johnson and Mr Khan about the increase in noise since I moved her in 1980.
I also complain regularly to Heathrow and always get polite and detailed replies. Whenquestion mark they build the third runway, they tell me that hey are planning to have quieter planes!

Fact is, us on the flight paths, really seemed to have no rights to peace and quiet nor any entitlement to compensation for the effect it has on our home life ( and in parks and woodlands too), so let's see what happens next.
Great to have a quiet day today; you get to realise what it was like pre. circa 1990.

cheers - fasten your safety belts - we're in for a bumpy ride!

messageRe: Aircraft noise -
Posted by Tomwiddowson 05 September, 2017 14:51

i*Rate Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> RobMillar,
>
> I wrote to Helen Hayes, Boris Johnson and Mr Khan
> about the increase in noise since I moved her in
> 1980.
> I also complain regularly to Heathrow and always
> get polite and detailed replies. Whenquestion mark they
> build the third runway, they tell me that hey are
> planning to have quieter planes!
>
> Fact is, us on the flight paths, really seemed to
> have no rights to peace and quiet nor any
> entitlement to compensation for the effect it has
> on our home life ( and in parks and woodlands
> too), so let's see what happens next.
> Great to have a quiet day today; you get to
> realise what it was like pre. circa 1990.
>
> cheers - fasten your safety belts - we're in for a
> bumpy ride!


Thats exact what I though "fasten your safety belts - we're in for a
> bumpy ride!" hahaha

messageRe: Aircraft noise -
Posted by lavender27 06 September, 2017 22:21

And due to a convoy of planes tonight, it's been far too noisy, and i doubt there will be much rest and quality sleep in East Dulwich.

messageRe: Aircraft noise -
Posted by Tony2014 07 September, 2017 05:30

Woken at 4.30 this morning - it's going to be a long day :-( Looking at [webtrak5.bksv.com] flight tracking, I wondered why there are no noise monitoring stations east of Richmond park?

messageRe: Aircraft noise -
Posted by Elphinstone's Army 07 September, 2017 21:23

The aircraft noise is indeed louder, as though they are flying lower - (in Kew Gardens you can reach up and touch them) we are at the periphery of their descent - I cannot see East Dulwich/Dulwich having a voice here, especially as many residents affect not to hear/notice/be disturbed by aircraft, noise, pollution or risk.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was 2017:09:08:09:25:18 by Elphinstone's Army.

messageRe: Aircraft noise -
Posted by James Barber 12 September, 2017 15:43

As a member of Heathrow Action Campaign Against Noise (HACAN) I receive this email a couple of weeks ago:

"
Dear Friends,

There is increasing concern about flight paths and aircraft noise from Heathrow over South and South East London. Some areas have also been experiencing more noise from London City aircraft following the concentration of its flight paths last year.

More positively, Heathrow will be holding a public consultation later this year to get peopleís views on the design principles which should inform the root and branch review of flight paths it will be undertaking (whether or not it gets permission for a third runway). It will be asking communities for their thoughts on the importance of things like respite.

We want to make sure that the community voice in South and South East London is as strong as possible and so we are proposing to set up HACAN South East London as a sister body to HACAN and HACAN East.

We would like to invite you to an the inaugural meeting of HACAN South East London on 26th September at 7.30pm at Kennington Park Community Centre, 8 Harleyford Street, SE11 5SY (just beside the Oval Cricket Ground).

Do come along! It will be a chance to hear from campaigners about the latest developments at Heathrow and London City airports. And it will be a chance to give your views about what the new body should concentrate on.

With best regards,

John Stewart
Chair HACAN
"

If aircraft noise annoys you then worth going to this inaugural meeting.

--------------------
Regards jamesvbarber@gmail.com
former Liberal Democrat Councillor for East Dulwich Ward (2006-2018)
[www.jamesbarber.org.uk]
[twitter.com]

messageRe: Aircraft noise -
Posted by George Orwell 12 September, 2017 18:56

From above: "I"m only the Queen".

I have landed in a plane at Heathrow many a time, sometimes from the East and sometimes from the West. One direction takes you nearly directly over Buckingham Palace, from the other nearly directly over Windsor Castle. The planes are much lower in either location than over SE London.

She can't get the flight patterns changed and so often pops up to Norfolk or Balmoral for peace and quiet - another option is that when she's had enough of the noise she can go on an official visit somewhere too.

In conclusion, don't waste your efforts complaining as you won't get anywhere. Learn to love it or move. I wouldn't recommend Richmond or Kew though.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was 2017:09:12:18:57:58 by George Orwell.

messageRe: Aircraft noise -
Posted by alex_b 18 September, 2017 12:06

George Orwell Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> In conclusion, don't waste your efforts
> complaining as you won't get anywhere. Learn to
> love it or move. I wouldn't recommend Richmond or
> Kew though.

I lived in Twickenham and actually think it's worse here in some respects. At least in Twickenham you get a pretty much guaranteed half day of no noise due to runway alternation (even though the other half is noisier). Here you between Heathrow and City the noise is almost constant, plus they stack the planes above us before the curfew lifts leading to noise earlier than I used to get it in West London.

That said I lived in Windsor for a bit and that was truly terrible.

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