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messageSouthwark Consultation on no entry - Denmark Hill/Champion Hill
Posted by Siduhe 02 October, 2018 14:51

Noticed this online consultation which is open for comments until 22 October - there are plans to restrict traffic other than cyclists turning into Champion Hill from Denmark Hill on the basis that most of it is people cutting through.

[consultations.southwark.gov.uk]

May be of interest to those on Bromar, Ivanhoe and Pytchley Roads as well as those on Champion Hill (who I assume are being directly consulted).

Quote:
Southwark Council
Residents of Champion Hill and its side roads will still be able to enter and exit the area with both arms remaining two-way. However, northbound entry to the Denmark Hill arm of Champion Hill will be restricted so people living here will need to take a short detour via Grove Lane/Champion Park to access their homes via Denmark Hill.

Through traffic will need to take alternative north-bound routes and we will monitor the area to analyse any impacts on local roads. While we hope most through traffic will stay on or switch to the main roads, due to the banned right turn from Grove Hill Road into Grove Lane traffic may potentially be displaced onto the surrounding roads of Bromar Road, Ivanhoe Road, and Pytchley Road to access Dog Kennel Hill/Grove Lane. While we hope that traffic eventually adjusts to using main roads instead of residential roads, we will closely monitor the traffic, allowing for at least six months of settling-in.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was february 22, 09:01pm by Siduhe.

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry into Champion Hill from Denmark Hill
Posted by spider69 02 October, 2018 15:22

Thank you for putting this up.

I thought this idea had been dropped back in 2015.

Would not have known about it if you had not posted. Seems again slipping a new scheme through under the radar.

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry into Champion Hill from Denmark Hill
Posted by tiddles 02 October, 2018 16:54

They just keep twiddling don't they ….

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry into Champion Hill from Denmark Hill
Posted by rupert james 02 October, 2018 17:42

Oct is normally the 6 month review of Southwark staff's annual work plan for the current year.

First starts in April then October. It is where Southwark staff have to show how they are working to gain their annual increment on the salary scale.

So one should expect more schemes like the one above whether they are needed or not.

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry into Champion Hill from Denmark Hill
Posted by PeckhamRose 02 October, 2018 21:11

Yes thanks for sharing this. Seems Southwark are always trying to stop people getting from A to B in any other way than already over-crowded main roads, so that those roads get even more congested.

--------------------
Humanist Funeral Celebrant

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry into Champion Hill from Denmark Hill
Posted by Jakido 02 October, 2018 22:13

I wish they’d try more scheme like this in se22 too.

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry into Champion Hill from Denmark Hill
Posted by peckham_ryu 02 October, 2018 22:14

Quote:
Southwark Department of the Obvious wrote:
due to the banned right turn from Grove Hill Road into Grove Lane traffic may potentially be displaced onto the surrounding roads of Bromar Road, Ivanhoe Road, and Pytchley Road to access Dog Kennel Hill/Grove Lane.

Yup. That's what I'll be doing.

What's all this about "hoping" drivers will adjust to main roads over time? As far as I can tell, most rush hour commuters are in thrall to traffic-beating apps like Waze and Google. Just what "main" route is Southwark hoping drivers and nav apps will take?

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry into Champion Hill from Denmark Hill
Posted by Sally Eva 03 October, 2018 07:30

The banned right turn is not new. It is a comment on the current position.

The change is a no entry for cars someway along champion Hill ie not at the junction with Dog Kennel Hill. Traffic from the west will be unaffected. Traffic going west from Dog Kennel Hill along champion Hill will not be able to access Denmark Hill.

The consultation [consultations.southwark.gov.uk] closes Oct 22nd

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry into Champion Hill from Denmark Hill
Posted by sally buying 03 October, 2018 08:09

So living at the bottom of Grove Park if I want to get to Casino Avenue, Sunray Avenue, Herne Hill etc due to the banned right turn from Grove Hill Road into Grove Lane traffic will be displaced onto the surrounding roads of Bromar Road, Ivanhoe Road, and Pytchley Road to access Dog Kennel Hill/Grove Lane. Then all the way down to Denmark Hill and up again towards Herne Hill.

Instead of just going over to Champion Hill and right down Champion Hill.

Why do Southwark always want to change what works and has always worked.

Same thought pattern that kept Camberwell Grove closed for so long and push traffic around residential roads.

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry into Champion Hill from Denmark Hill
Posted by James Barber 03 October, 2018 09:35

Champion Hill has the same traffic levels as the parallel A Road Champion Park.
Champion Hill is part of quiet way and London Cycle Network route 23.
That's why the council is proposing this filtered restriction. It will make it harder/longer for residents making some car journeys. It will make it more attractive for those walking and cycling.
If we're ever to solve obesity levels, global warming. air pollution we need many more of these proposals being implemented.

Hi P68,
London's population has risen by 2 million in the last 25 years and is forecast to do the same. Doing nothing will see our residential road suffer the same levels of use/.congestion as our A roads. As indeed is already happening to Champion Hill. People, when faced with congestion, changes routes and travel modes - it evaporates. Much as when you build roads, allow new routes for motor vehicles new traffic is generated.

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry into Champion Hill from Denmark Hill
Posted by TheArtfulDogger 03 October, 2018 09:42

Does this plan also take one of the vital routes for emergency services to get from the east Dulwich area to the Kings college hospital area ?
Whilst the main route is still there, if that is blocked by additional traffic then emergency vehicles will have less options for getting anywhere quickly

Wonder if the hospital and emergency services have been consulted

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry into Champion Hill from Denmark Hill
Posted by spider69 03 October, 2018 10:03

James Barber Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Champion Hill has the same traffic levels as the
> parallel A Road Champion Park.
> Champion Hill is part of quiet way and London
> Cycle Network route 23.
> That's why the council is proposing this filtered
> restriction. It will make it harder/longer for
> residents making some car journeys. It will make
> it more attractive for those walking and cycling.
>
> If we're ever to solve obesity levels, global
> warming. air pollution we need many more of these
> proposals being implemented.
>
> Hi P68,
> London's population has risen by 2 million in the
> last 25 years and is forecast to do the same.
> Doing nothing will see our residential road suffer
> the same levels of use/.congestion as our A roads.
> As indeed is already happening to Champion Hill.
> People, when faced with congestion, changes routes
> and travel modes - it evaporates. Much as when you
> build roads, allow new routes for motor vehicles
> new traffic is generated.

Having lived on and around Champion Hill as a child since 1958 I have to admit I have not seen any major increase in traffic over the years apart from the brief burst when the rush hour is on. Not that you would really notice. Apart from that brief spurt it is pleasant for pedestrians, cyclists and car users with very little traffic and is safe to use.

Appears that this looks like the Camberwell Grove mindset to ban vehicles.

I thought I read you live on Champion Hill does that have an influence on you thinking.

Thought Sally Buyings comments summed things up well.

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry into Champion Hill from Denmark Hill
Posted by rendelharris 03 October, 2018 10:57

spider69 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Having lived on and around Champion Hill as a
> child since 1958 I have to admit I have not seen
> any major increase in traffic over the years apart
> from the brief burst when the rush hour is on. Not
> that you would really notice. Apart from that
> brief spurt it is pleasant for pedestrians,
> cyclists and car users with very little traffic
> and is safe to use.

I lived on Champion Hill for ten years 2006-2016 on the ground floor of Ruskin Park House, at the end nearest the junction. From 6.30AM to 9AM the road was blocked as far back as the student halls, with traffic frequently hooting at those in front to pull out onto Denmark Hill. The pollution was filthy, we had to keep our windows closed at all times in the hottest weather. For some reason evening rush hour wasn't too bad. During the day there was a continual stream of traffic, most of it driving in excess of the speed limit, with many drivers going the wrong side of the traffic islands to avoid having to slow down. The only way it's safe to use as a cyclist is to hold a position in the middle of the road (and then get abused by car drivers for slowing them down) - if you move at all to the left someone will try to squeeze by at a pinch point and you risk being slammed into parked cars.

Too many comments on here symptomatic of the "I should be allowed to drive whenever and wherever I want" mindset. People are dying in their thousands because of London's traffic every year, and many thousands more, especially children, are suffering serious health problems. It's not good enough to say "Oh the council should leave everything as it is and not interfere."

In answer to Artful's (sensible) question, the road won't be completely barriered, there will just be an island on the right-hand side (as you come up from Denmark Hill) and a no-entry sign, which I assume emergency vehicles are permitted to ignore - the road will still be two-way either side of the semi-closure.

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry into Champion Hill from Denmark Hill
Posted by spider69 03 October, 2018 12:47

Must be a different road.

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry into Champion Hill from Denmark Hill
Posted by Penguin68 03 October, 2018 13:10

James Barber wrote:-

Hi P68,
London's population has risen by 2 million ...


I don't know what this is a response to, as I haven't (until now) posted on this thread.

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry into Champion Hill from Denmark Hill
Posted by rendelharris 03 October, 2018 13:23

spider69 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Must be a different road.

Well, it's the one I worked from home by the side of for a decade, with a desk looking out directly over the junction of Denmark Hill and Champion Hill.

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry into Champion Hill from Denmark Hill
Posted by wimble 03 October, 2018 13:44

I drive this road every morning as part of my commute and am usually heading down champion hill during rush hour between 8 -8.15am. There is never any traffic or congestion. The only time I've encountered backed up traffic was during the winter snow this year for obvious reasons (and someone had crashed into the bollard at the bottom)

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry into Champion Hill from Denmark Hill
Posted by uncleglen 03 October, 2018 14:00

I drive that way to get to Ruskin Park...oh well through the village both ways if it happens. Did I see a massive house in that road festooned with Labour paraphenalia at the last election? Just a thought!

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry into Champion Hill from Denmark Hill
Posted by rendelharris 03 October, 2018 19:45

wimble Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I drive this road every morning as part of my
> commute and am usually heading down champion hill
> during rush hour between 8 -8.15am. There is never
> any traffic or congestion. The only time I've
> encountered backed up traffic was during the
> winter snow this year for obvious reasons (and
> someone had crashed into the bollard at the
> bottom)

I can only offer my empirical experience of living right next to this road for ten years. Of course those who use it for their daily commute would have no motive for claiming that everything's fine with it, would they? This is a well-known rat run, leading on to one of the busiest roads in the area, and you've never been held up there? I wonder why when my wife and I wanted to leave there at morning rush hour in the car we'd frequently be held up for a number of minutes? Just unlucky, I guess...

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry into Champion Hill from Denmark Hill
Posted by edanna 16 October, 2018 23:20

While understanding the points of view of Champion Hill residents, I’m really concerned about the knock-on effects of this trial. This won’t stop people who need to use vehicles using them - it will just displace the cars and vans onto other roads.


I think this trial will have a serious impact on congestion from the junction between Dog Kennel Hill and Champion Hill round past Denmark Hill station. Previous roadworks etc have demonstrated that it takes very little to slow buses going up Dog Kennel Hill considerably, with tailbacks going all the way down Dog Kennel Hill and sometimes back to Goose Green.

The buses up Dog Kennel Hill are a central part of the commute for a very large number of people living in East Dulwich, Forest Hill etc. I think consultation with TFL is essential before pursuing this trial.

I would also expect the trial to have a serious knock-on effect on the junctions between Townley Rd and East Dulwich Grove, and between East Dulwich Grove and Red Post Hill. This is the obvious alternative route between Lordship Lane and Red Post Hill/Ruskin Park. These junctions are already very busy in the morning, especially with coaches and other traffic going to Alleyn’s and James Allen’s Girls School. An increase in congestion at these junctions would lead to even longer tailbacks (and pollution outside schools due to cars idling in queues) and delay the 37 bus route, which is another essential route for many people’s morning commute.

If the impact on buses is as bad as I fear then a lot of people are going to be adversely affected by this trial, which is planned to last for 6-12 months.

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry into Champion Hill from Denmark Hill
Posted by Bagpipes 17 October, 2018 16:48

I don't quite understand how they can justify increasing traffic next to or nearby two primary schools...! Because traffic on Grove Lane will increase

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry into Champion Hill from Denmark Hill
Posted by betternowthanthen 17 October, 2018 17:52

I have sighn the consulation. Very much against this and so are many people in the surround area.

Not only do we have a horrible proposal for large scheme of apartments on the corner the Champion Hill/DKH that will ruin the area, this road scheme will the ultimate spat on the face from southwark, to us, again.....

DO NOT DO IT! Simple, leave it as it is, sometimes doing nothing is the best thing to do. Also the cost to the tax payers to do a badly thought trial would be a good insensitive to not to waste money! It would not be cheap. It's not a welcome scheme, badly thought one at that!

~Adding more time to get to destinations this is.

This road is critical to get about the local area, and serves to re-leave congestion on the other busy roads into London, for traders, delivery company's, and getting to relatives, getting to work. It would only add burden to the other areas, let this road share the strain like all the other roads do. More traffic standing more pollution on roads near the station of Denmark hill, and increase accidents there too.

Southwark and its staff need to be put in their place, this borough is getting worse with rubbish schemes like these, please sign against this to stop this! Poor people who live in this road are nearly completely cut off, and emergency vehicles, did they even think about that?

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry into Champion Hill from Denmark Hill
Posted by rendelharris 17 October, 2018 19:57

betternowthanthen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Southwark and its staff need to be put in their
> place, this borough is getting worse with rubbish
> schemes like these, please sign against this to
> stop this! Poor people who live in this road are
> nearly completely cut off, and emergency vehicles,
> did they even think about that?

Having had a closer look at this scheme I tend to agree it's probably a bad one for the displacement effect it will cause - however it's a bit dramatic to say that. If you live on Champion Hill you won't be cut off, if you live above the corner you'll have to go round via Denmark Hill (three minutes maximum, probably), if you live below nothing's changed. Emergency vehicles (which generally would prefer a wider main road anyway, when I lived on CH we heard them a lot on Denmark Hill but only saw them on CH if they were coming to an address on that road) will be allowed to travel through the no-entry, as they are generally.

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry into Champion Hill from Denmark Hill
Posted by sdrs 19 October, 2018 18:34

Grove Lane Residents’ Association has just submitted an objection. The unintended consequences of this misconceived and appallingly timed scheme are quite serious. Closing Champion Hill to through-traffic westbound (from Grove Hill Road and Dog Kennel Hill) will cause serious northbound congestion in the morning rush hour on Dog Kennel Hill, the southern section of Grove Lane and Champion Park, where it will back up at the already overloaded junction with Denmark Hill.
This will have two unacceptable consequences:
1) it will increase journey times, including bus journey times and ambulance journey times
2) it will increase air pollution on Dog Kennel Hill, Grove Lane and Champion Park, roads with a high density of residents, which carry thousands of pedestrians to Denmark Hill and East Dulwich stations at the top and bottom of the hill, Kings College Hospital and local schools.
The main roads, onto which the trial aims to displace traffic, constitute a Primary Route for ambulances serving Kings College Hospital. Kings is a major teaching hospital, whose busy A&E department and new Critical Care Centre accept patients from across the South East. Its workers and patients (and those of the Maudsley) are heavily dependent on the northbound bus service in the morning, especially in the absence of a tube station.
The inevitable impacts of the proposed closure of Champion Hill to westbound through traffic on traffic flow, emergency service response times, bus journey times and air quality (in what is already an Air Quality Management Area) will be exacerbated if the trial is undertaken at the same time as major roadworks scheduled for the next 12 months and beyond by both Southwark (already begun on Denmark Hill) and TfL (Camberwell town centre). Electronic billboards are already warning motorists to avoid using Grove Lane/Champion Park for thé next year and to use alternative routes! Please make representations to LB Southwark to postpone the Champion Hill trial until after Southwark and TfL’s improvements at Denmark Hill and Camberwell Green have all been completed and more detailed study of the potential impacts has been made through wider and more in depth consultations.
[consultations.southwark.gov.uk]
Cross borough cooperation is needed on this between Lambeth and Southwark. LB Southwark needs to be reminded that all residents living in the area have a voice, that decisions to introduce traffic measures that will impact across wider communities and on NHS providers and on emergency services need taking with great care and after appropriate consultations. Lambeth had to pull the plug on a similarly misconceived road closure in Loughborough Junction after the Fire Brigade lodged a formal complaint about increased response times. The LAS had noted similar delays. Kings had said patients and workers were suffering unacceptable delays getting to the hospital, and had commented on a perceived increase in pollution, resulting from the congestion.

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry into Champion Hill from Denmark Hill
Posted by sdrs 19 October, 2018 18:46

In response to the opening post - the residents of surrounding, affected roads onto which traffic would be displaced (Bromar, Pytchley, Grove Lane and others) were not consulted about this trial. It is also worth noting that TfL rejected the closure of Champion Hill a few years ago on grounds of unacceptable delays to bus journey times. And that the trial is strongly opposed by most residents of Champion Hill itself (many of whom will be unable to access their homes except via Denmark Hill). I gather there are also concerns about how coaches transporting students (of whom there are 750+ on Champion Hill) to and from Kings Halls of Residence will safely negotiate the proposed one way system on the Denmark Hill leg of Champion Hill.

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry into Champion Hill from Denmark Hill
Posted by sally buying 19 October, 2018 18:50

I have not seen any notices relating to this anywhere.

So Southwark will be hoping that most people will be unaware this is taking place.

Getting the normal "save the planet objectors" to object and using their vote to push it though on a % basis.

Any long term residents will know how important this through route is.

It has been in existence and proved to be the right ever since the roads were laid down.

Accept that Southwark wants cars off the road and will do anything to achieve this.

I came down the Grove Hill road, Bromar Road route today and got stuck as traffic could not move. When all traffic is forced into this route it will be impossible

Crazy.

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry into Champion Hill from Denmark Hill
Posted by sdrs 19 October, 2018 19:35

The online questionnaire survey ends on 22nd October so responses need be made by this coming Monday. Southwark hope to press ahead with the trial (in the form of an experimental traffic order) without formal consultation, presenting the scheme as a « live consultation in itself »! This seems unacceptable, given the trial’s inevitable impacts on a wide area and that it could be in place for up to a year (January 2019-January 2020, according to LBS Joanna Lesak) But it has yet to be « signed off ». Residents’ groups from SE5 and SE24 have recently made representations to Florence Eshamomi, Helen Hayes, and Councillors Peter John and Sarah King and formal submissions via the online questionnaire. More representations are needed.

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry into Champion Hill from Denmark Hill
Posted by rendelharris 19 October, 2018 20:52

sally buying Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have not seen any notices relating to this
> anywhere.

It's fully notified on the website and there are prominent notices on Champion Hill

> So Southwark will be hoping that most people will
> be unaware this is taking place.

Conspiracy theories ahoy!

> Getting the normal "save the planet objectors" to
> object and using their vote to push it though on a
> % basis.

Yes, no reasonable person could support, it's all Green loonies

> Any long term residents will know how important
> this through route is.

Plenty of long term residents, of whom I am one, think blocking it has some validity

> It has been in existence and proved to be the
> right ever since the roads were laid down.

This road has been there since about 1830 or earlier, sure they were thinking of motor traffic at that time

> Accept that Southwark wants cars off the road and
> will do anything to achieve this.

Yes it's a terrible conspiracy to stop 10,000 premature deaths a year and appalling damage to the health of our children, bastards!

> I came down the Grove Hill road, Bromar Road route
> today and got stuck as traffic could not move.
> When all traffic is forced into this route it will
> be impossible

Could you have used public transport, cycled or walked your journey instead?

> Crazy.

I so agree.

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry into Champion Hill from Denmark Hill
Posted by sdrs 19 October, 2018 21:04

Rendelharris please note the issues raised in my posts. One of the serious unintended consequences of the trial is that it will increase (not decrease) air pollution. Another is that it will impact on bus journey times, so disincentivising people from using public transport.

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry into Champion Hill from Denmark Hill
Posted by Bagpipes 21 October, 2018 13:39

It strikes me that there simply hasn't been enough thought given to the consequences of the closure for surrounding streets. What residents deserve is some actual data on key issues:

-Officers should give residents of each road where traffic will be displaced an idea of the likely increase in traffic.
-Officers should notify the governing bodies of DKH primary and Lyndhurst primary of the likely effect of increased traffic/ pollution on children
-pollution levels should be tested on Grove Lane, Dog Kennel Hill before and during the trial period
-traffic volumes should be monitored on Grove Lane, DKH and compared before and during the trial period
-Officers should publish robust impact assessments of the trial.

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