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messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry - Denmark Hill/Champion Hill
Posted by sdrs March 02, 12:36PM

The objectives of the scheme are unclear and no evidence for its need has been produced by the Council. If it is about making streets healthier and safer for children walking to school, it is failing in its objectives. It is having the opposite effect. Many more children live on and walk along the roads taking the displaced traffic and are suffering increased pollution in morning rush hour than live on or use Champion Hill. The Pupil Entrance to Dog Kennel Hill School is not on Champion Hill but on Dog Kennel Hill. Ideally both No2 and PM2.5 levels should be monitored but the Council is focusing exclusively on NO2 (cheaper to monitor). The NO2 tube on Champion Hill (where NO2 levels would already have been significantly lower than on Dog Kennel Hill, Grove Lane or Champion Park) is already broken and incredibly, none were planned for Dog Kennel Hill, Grove Lane or Champion Park, despite this constituting a major pedestrian route to three local primary schools and the first two being densely residential. Residents are pressing for these. The scheme is as deeply flawed as the failed Loughborough Junction trial, which was aborted when the Fire Brigade lodged an official complaint about the impact of the congestion it caused on emergency response times and Kings commented on unacceptable (20-30 minute) delays caused to patients and staff and on a perceived increase in pollution in the area around the hospital. Interestingly, another reason for the ending of that trial was its unacceptable impact on the residents of the Loughborough estate - over-use of estate roads. It was fully anticipated by Southwark Council in its planning of this trial that westbound displaced traffic would head south and seek to rejoin Dog Kennel Hill via Bromar and Puthchley Roads, ie via the East Dulwich estate, none of whose residents were consulted.
This consultation is open till September
[consultations.southwark.gov.uk]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit was march 02, 12:56pm by sdrs.

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry - Denmark Hill/Champion Hill
Posted by Bagpipes March 02, 01:19PM

James Barber Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I thought this closure was about reducing traffic
> levels to make it safer to cycle along this
> section of London Cycle Network route no.23 and
> walk cycle Safe Routes To School.

With respect, James, that may be the motivation, but policy makers have to be alive to the consequential harm (unintentional or otherwise) that schemes like this cause. And weigh up the pros and cons accordingly. I don't believe for a minute you would put up with - or stay silent about - the huge spike in volume of traffic and pollution that closing Champion Hill causes for residents on surrounding roads if you lived there.

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry - Denmark Hill/Champion Hill
Posted by James Barber March 03, 09:06AM

Hi Bagpipes,
The reasons the experimental TMO is that it takes several months for things to settle back down again. So I think it premature to view the current situation as how things will ultimately settle.

hi sera,
I don't understand your assertions.
Champion Hill E-W section has narrow road lanes and narrow pavements with no cars parked between the pavements and the car lanes. The other roads you've suggested as being more dangerous do have parked car between wider pavements and the wider car lanes. So how is it more dangerous?
Air pollution will reduce from 1 April when the ULEZ rules in the Congestion charing one apply - we'll see less traffic the degree I'm uncertain about but it will be less. Also, it is very early to see the current situation as anything other than a transition until people get used to the change and the numerous road works badly coordinated by the council come to an end.

--------------------
Regards jamesvbarber@gmail.com
former Liberal Democrat Councillor for East Dulwich Ward (2006-2018)
[www.jamesbarber.org.uk]
[twitter.com]

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry - Denmark Hill/Champion Hill
Posted by AylwardS March 03, 12:41PM

trial period to see how your concerns are affected by differing traffic levels.

Traffic in South London generally has been worse for the last 4-6 weeks and its not always clear why. Last week I walked down a road at a time I’ve been walking down it regularly for the last couple of years and the traffic was worse than I’ve ever seen it. Someone else at the class I was going to had walked down the same road 5 minutes earlier and a bus and car had a minor accident, didn’t pull out of the traffic to swap details and access both ways to the High Street was affected. Given all the roadworks locally - those at Denmark Hill / Camberwell will go on until July - I’m not sure the trial will ever see “normal” traffic levels.

Not all of the concerns expressed here are just down to the closure, though it may not be helping.

If air quality / pollution is a concern for you this page from TfL might be of interest [tfl.gov.uk].

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry - Denmark Hill/Champion Hill
Posted by AylwardS March 03, 12:46PM

Pollution levels are not just down to traffic but there are plenty of posts on here about traffic impacts.

From what I’ve seen and heard traffic in South London generally has been worse for the last 4-6 weeks and its not always clear why. Last week I walked down a road at a time I’ve been walking down it regularly for the last couple of years and the traffic was worse than I’ve ever seen it. Someone else at the class I was going to had walked down the same road 5 minutes earlier and a bus and car had a minor accident, didn’t pull out of the traffic to swap details and access both ways to the High Street was affected. Given all the roadworks locally - those at Denmark Hill / Camberwell will go on until July - I’m not sure the trial will ever see “normal” traffic levels.

The closure may not be helping but it may not be the closure alone affecting traffic.

If air quality / pollution is a concern for you this page from TfL might be of interest [tfl.gov.uk].

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry - Denmark Hill/Champion Hill
Posted by rendelharris March 04, 09:47AM

(Also posted on another thread but may be of interest to those on here)

I had to walk to hospital this morning, so I took some pictures of the traffic situation, bearing in mind that we've been told that the CH closure will lead to massive ratrunning through the DKH estate and that, allegedly, traffic has been gridlocked up Champion Park and down Dog Kennel Hill since the CH closure. Clockwise from top left: Bromar Road, Quorn Road, Ivanhoe Road, Grove Lane, Dog Kennel Hill and Pytchley Road. All pictures taken between 8.05 and 8.20 this morning.

There was a traffic jam along the bottom part of Champion Park, stretching back almost as far as the wolf sculpture; in the twenty-plus years I've lived round here there has always been a traffic jam of that length or longer at rush hour, it's a very busy road with a pelican that turns red every ninety seconds or less and there is a very long red/short green phasing at the lights at the Denmark Hill junction. From the wolf sculpture, cars were taking approximately two minutes to reach Denmark Hill. Of the alleged nightmarish gridlock of which we've heard so much, not a sign.

https://i.imgur.com/4dyzS5n.png?1



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit was march 04, 12:09pm by rendelharris.

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry - Denmark Hill/Champion Hill
Posted by Beulah March 04, 11:15AM

^That's not fair - you just waited until there was a convenient break in the gridlock!

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry - Denmark Hill/Champion Hill
Posted by sdrs March 04, 11:41AM

Must have done! Baffled as to why Rendelharris is so intent on dismissing the concerns about the effects of this trial raised by those actually live on the roads taking the displaced traffic, who are experiencing and observing them daily, and by other residents whose kids have to use these roads to walk to school. Coming on the forum to accuse others of making things up is not a good look. It is simply untrue that traffic on Grove Lane is the same as it ever was. I have lived on Grove Lane 22 years and never seen anything like it. “Allegedly”?! The tailbacks in morning rush hour which were once contained on Champion Park now extend all the way down Grove Lane, on a bad morning almost all the way back to Champion Hill. Plenty of photographic evidence of this from multiple sources has been and will continue to be captured and passed on to the Council.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was march 04, 01:18pm by sdrs.

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry - Denmark Hill/Champion Hill
Posted by rendelharris March 04, 12:02PM

sdrs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
The tailbacks in morning rush
> hour which were once contained on Champion Park
> now extend all the way down Grove Lane, on a bad
> morning almost all the way back to Champion Hill.

In that case, how was I able to take the bottom right photograph, showing Grove Lane completely clear, at 8.20 on a Monday morning? How was I able to take photos at the height of rush hour on the roads that are supposedly packed with rat runners showing them completely clear? This isn't a question of saying that's my opinion, or I'm making it up - there's the factual evidence.

I too, funnily enough, observe and experience the situation daily, as I live, walk and cycle in the affected area. My experience is, as supported by photographic evidence, that the situation is nothing like as dire as some are claiming.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was march 05, 11:05am by rendelharris.

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry - Denmark Hill/Champion Hill
Posted by goldilocks March 04, 12:09PM

This morning was strange though - there are still traffic lights on East Dulwich Grove but there was much less queueing traffic this morning than normal - only a few cars by the lights - perhaps I was a little earlier than usual and it doesn't back up until 8:30 but its the first day in weeks it hasn't been queueing back to Melbourne Grove and beyond.

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry - Denmark Hill/Champion Hill
Posted by Beulah March 04, 12:57PM

^Strange isn't it? It's almost as if the closure of Champion Hill (in one direction) isn't responsible for the mass gridlock that we can no longer see...

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry - Denmark Hill/Champion Hill
Posted by spider69 March 04, 01:04PM

Beulah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ^That's not fair - you just waited until there was
> a convenient break in the gridlock!


Strange. Not one moving car in sight on any road.

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry - Denmark Hill/Champion Hill
Posted by rendelharris March 04, 01:19PM

spider69 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Strange. Not one moving car in sight on any road.


Yeah, I must have Photoshopped them out...in fact there were two cars at the top of Ivanhoe and there were two cars and a lorry waiting at the lights at the end of Pytchley - not easy to see as had to compress photos massively to meet the forum requirements. Only really strange if you find reality strange.

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry - Denmark Hill/Champion Hill
Posted by betternowthanthen March 06, 02:38AM

rendelharris

------------------
Your pics are def taken when breaks in traffic.....how about you compare them to pics taken at 6am? sure they'll look the same. How about you take them at rush hour, oh, don't forget to get ones that actually involve the actual trafffic???!!

Your fooling no one again, by the way, keep it coming, i'm enjoying this...

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry - Denmark Hill/Champion Hill
Posted by rendelharris March 06, 06:22AM

betternowthanthen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rendelharris
>
> ------------------
> Your pics are def taken when breaks in
> traffic.....how about you compare them to pics
> taken at 6am? sure they'll look the same. How
> about you take them at rush hour, oh, don't forget
> to get ones that actually involve the actual
> trafffic???!!
>
> Your fooling no one again, by the way, keep it
> coming, i'm enjoying this...

Oh dear. Yes, well done Sherlock, of course they're taken during breaks in the traffic, did I say they proved there was no traffic at all (though for the DKH estate streets, they are a fair representation of how the streets were/are at all times)? The point is, if Grove Lane and Dog Kennel Hill have been suffering "gridlock" due to the CH closure, as some have claimed, how was I able to take photographs at the height of rush hour showing those roads completely empty? Where's the gridlock?

All pictures were taken, as stated, between 8.05 and 8.20 on Monday morning; if you choose not to believe that because the facts don't fit your chosen narrative, I couldn't care less.

ETA Just for you, here's a screenshot of my iPhone with the DKH picture. You will note the time - Monday 08.18.

https://i.imgur.com/M9j0xtO.jpg?1



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit was march 06, 09:40am by rendelharris.

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry - Denmark Hill/Champion Hill
Posted by Cardelia March 06, 12:13PM

rendelharris Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The point is, if Grove Lane and Dog
> Kennel Hill have been suffering "gridlock" due to
> the CH closure, as some have claimed, how was I
> able to take photographs at the height of rush
> hour showing those roads completely empty?
> Where's the gridlock?

I don't know. In order to answer that we'd need to know what sort of journeys people typically make which require them to use Grove Lane/Champion Park, then backtrack those routes to see whether there was any incident (roadworks, accident etc.) on Monday morning which would have disrupted the traffic flows before drivers reached Grove Lane. That shouldn't be difficult to ascertain from all the research and modelling studies that Southwark Council would have done as part of their assessment of what would likely happen to traffic flows when they closed Champion Hill.*

For what it's worth, the traffic this morning on Grove Lane was backed up all the way to the crossroads at the top of DKH (around 8:45). I was on a bus which got held up for about 10 minutes before it could get into the bus lane on Champion Park. Same was true yesterday. There are plenty of recent datapoints from multiple people on here to suggest that this is typical of the morning rush since Champion Hill was closed, and that for whatever reason Monday morning was an anomaly.


* Yes, I know, of course Southwark won't have done any of this. But they should have done.

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry - Denmark Hill/Champion Hill
Posted by spider69 March 06, 12:19PM

My wife used the above route you were talking about on Monday and came home and said where has all the traffic gone.

Could not believe how empty all the roads were.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was march 06, 12:24pm by spider69.

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry - Denmark Hill/Champion Hill
Posted by sdrs March 06, 02:42PM

This morning at 8.30 am the traffic was jammed solid down south Grove Lane up to the Champion Hill junction and at about 9.30 there was a very bad accident ( two cars badly damaged and an ambulance) at the junction of Grove Lane and Champion Hill. The accident was surely caused by the traffic congestion etc.

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry - Denmark Hill/Champion Hill
Posted by rendelharris March 06, 02:46PM

sdrs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This morning at 8.30 am the traffic was jammed
> solid down south Grove Lane up to the Champion
> Hill junction and at about 9.30 there was a very
> bad accident ( two cars badly damaged and an
> ambulance) at the junction of Grove Lane and
> Champion Hill. The accident was surely caused by
> the traffic congestion etc.

That's a rather large assumption, isn't it? Surely traffic congestion mitigates the chances of serious accidents by reducing speeds?

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry - Denmark Hill/Champion Hill
Posted by rendelharris March 06, 10:23PM

spider69 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My wife used the above route you were talking
> about on Monday and came home and said where has
> all the traffic gone.
>
> Could not believe how empty all the roads were.


I'm happy to accept it as an anomaly - irritatingly I have to make rather more trips to hospital than I would like so I'll report back when I next stroll up there. It is at least possible that the predicted recalibration of traffic flow is starting to occur though, no? I can certainly say with confidence that, making a coffee/paper run on my bike most mornings to Sainsbury's (freelancers like to get some form of human contact) the predicted horrendous traffic flow through Bromar/Quorn/Pytchley etc simply isn't happening, it's the same as it's always been in the three years I've lived on an adjoining road, which is to say minimal, and the traffic on Malfort/Grove Hill Roads is significantly reduced as nobody's heading for the Champion Hill ratrun now.

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry - Denmark Hill/Champion Hillattachment
Posted by sdrs March 07, 09:24AM

5 Buses queueing on Grove Lane at 8.30 this morning to get round the corner onto Champion Park and Denmark Hill. A lot of commuters were getting off a stop early (Champion Grove stop) and running the rest of the way to the station.

Attachments: 7DC31733-141F-4ECB-8328-1D655B0DF127.jpeg (197KB)  
messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry - Denmark Hill/Champion Hill
Posted by Froglander March 07, 09:25AM

sdrs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This morning at 8.30 am the traffic was jammed
> solid down south Grove Lane up to the Champion
> Hill junction and at about 9.30 there was a very
> bad accident ( two cars badly damaged and an
> ambulance) at the junction of Grove Lane and
> Champion Hill. The accident was surely caused by
> the traffic congestion etc.

Heard radio reports about another accident today, same area.

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry - Denmark Hill/Champion Hillattachment
Posted by sdrs March 07, 09:31AM

Yes. It was here (see photo, taken shortly after) on the corner of Grove Lane and Champion Park, I heard it involved a motorbike and an ambulance. Yesterday’s serious accident on the Grove Hill Rd/Grove Lane/Champion Hill junction, by DKH School, involved two cars (one of which was a write-off) and an ambulance.

Attachments: 37F88001-9944-4FEE-B9D0-D653B161AB51.jpeg (144.7KB)  
messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry - Denmark Hill/Champion Hill
Posted by rendelharris March 07, 12:29PM

Hope everyone involved not too seriously hurt. Given that this morning's delays were the result of accidents (and there have always been accidents, as one would expect on a busy A road) they're irrelevant to the question of the CH closure, aren't they? Still can't see why accidents were "surely" caused by congestion (worth remembering the words of my motorcycle instructor: "What's the biggest cause of accidents, black ice, bad road design, poor visibility? No, it's people.").

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry - Denmark Hill/Champion Hill
Posted by sdrs March 07, 01:34PM

Are you implying that residents of A-roads should expect serious road accidents as a matter of course? I’m really shocked by your comments, with their implied disregard for the residents of these roads. We live on an A toad so should be content with sky high pollution and a soaring accident rate? This scheme rests on a spurious distinction between « main » and « residential » roads. Grove Lane and Dog Kennel Hil are both! As are so many in London. If you’re not bothered about residents, what about the pupils of the 3 primary schools who use this particular A-road to walk to school or the thousands of pedestrians who use it to walk to local bus stops, stations and hospitals in morning rush hour? One of the two accidents that occurred this week - as if by coincidence on the very stretch of road currently taking most of the displaced traffic from Champion Hill - was at the the junction adjoining Dog Kennel Hill School. The congestion resulting from the Champion Hill closure is causing pollution and road rage of a kind I have never seen in 22 years of living on Grove Lane - leading drivers to perform ill-judged and dangerous driving manoeuvres, including on Champion Park where the accident occurred this morning. Here, motorists are overtaking where they shouldn’t and performing U-turns once they come around the bend and see the traffic not moving. However this morning’s accident was not in any way responsible for the delays. The photo I posted was taken at 8am by which time as you can see it was completely out of the path of any traffic. The photo of the buses queuing on Grove Lane was taken at 8.25am. The delays are caused by the trial closure of Champion Hill to Denmark Hill. I have never before this trial seen bus passengers jumping off 40/176/185 buses en masse on Grove Lane (at Champion Grove stop) and running to Denmark Hill because they know they’re not going to make it to the station in time otherwise.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit was march 07, 02:27pm by sdrs.

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry - Denmark Hill/Champion Hill
Posted by rendelharris March 07, 01:42PM

sdrs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Are you seriously implying that residents of
> A-roads should expect serious road accidents as a
> matter of course? I’m really shocked by your
> comments, with their implied disregard for the
> residents of these roads. We live on an A toad so
> should be content with sky high pollution and a
> soaring accident rate?

I'm not implying anything of the sort as you well know, you're inferring it in an extremely hysterical manner because I don't agree with you about the Champion Hill closure, which is, frankly, cheap.

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry - Denmark Hill/Champion Hill
Posted by Penguin68 March 07, 06:21PM

Given that this morning's delays were the result of accidents (and there have always been accidents, as one would expect on a busy A road) they're irrelevant to the question of the CH closure, aren't they?

Actually (and ignoring the spat above) no. The more roads are permanently closed or restricted, the fewer 'alternative' routes exist (for motorists, public conveyances or emergency vehicles) in the case of accident, or, more frequently around here, road closures following infrastructure failure. Every road closed is an 'in emergency' route blocked off. Which means that problems will inevitably be exacerbated. As a local I used to know many routes which allowed me to 'get through' incidents - these are fast disappearing. That can surely be to no one's benefit. I am generally always against reducing flexibility.

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry - Denmark Hill/Champion Hill
Posted by Abe_froeman March 07, 08:38PM

What all of these photos show is that absolutely no one has been encouraged to walk or cycle. Not one pedestrian or cyclist in all the pictures!

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry - Denmark Hill/Champion Hill
Posted by rendelharris March 07, 09:07PM

Abe_froeman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What all of these photos show is that absolutely
> no one has been encouraged to walk or cycle. Not
> one pedestrian or cyclist in all the pictures!

Clearly cyclists won't be going along DKH/Grove Lane/Champion Park when they can use the newly controlled Champion Hill, so the fact that there are no cyclists in the pictures proves nothing.

messageRe: Southwark Consultation on no entry - Denmark Hill/Champion Hill
Posted by rendelharris March 07, 09:08PM

Penguin68 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Actually (and ignoring the spat above) no. The
> more roads are permanently closed or restricted,
> the fewer 'alternative' routes exist (for
> motorists, public conveyances or emergency
> vehicles) in the case of accident, or, more
> frequently around here, road closures following
> infrastructure failure. Every road closed is an
> 'in emergency' route blocked off. Which means that
> problems will inevitably be exacerbated. As a
> local I used to know many routes which allowed me
> to 'get through' incidents - these are fast
> disappearing. That can surely be to no one's
> benefit. I am generally always against reducing
> flexibility.

So by that argument no road should ever be subject to control measures to make it healthier/safer/more pleasant, everywhere should just remain a motorist free-for-all?

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